Skinchanger Zombies: Jon, the Last Hero, and Coldhands

[LmL]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Extrapolating to the weirwoods, if the weirwood branches on which the ravens are perching can be compared to a kind of 'rookery stair' which takes them to the top or bottom of the tree, then the 'workroom beneath the rookery stair' would be Bloodraven/Bran/the greenseers' 'hollow hill' filled with weirwood roots in which magic is concentrated, distilled, and amplified, etc.  The 'workroom' of the trees.  The 'maester' or 'alchemist' sacrificing for power -- who is the central figure in the gargoyle trio you identified -- is analogous to the greenseer Odin figure 'hanging himself on the tree.'  Fittingly, the product of the seeds -- namely the Strangler -- literally causes death by suffocation, resulting in the victim's dying 'death rattle'...'oh oh oh...ho ho ho'!

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On the bottom shelf behind a row of salves in squat clay jars he found a vial of indigo glass, no larger than his little finger. It rattled when he shook it. Cressen blew away a layer of dust and carried it back to his table. Collapsing into his chair, he pulled the stopper and spilled out the vial's contents. A dozen crystals, no larger than seeds, rattled across the parchment he'd been reading. They shone like jewels in the candlelight, so purple that the maester found himself thinking that he had never truly seen the color before.

Likewise, I'm just beginning to appreciate the color I've 'never truly seen before' as GRRM's symbolic meanings slowly unfold before my eyes!  Note, the crystals are compared to 'seeds' which 'rattle' -- underscoring that the poison is derived from a plant (=weirwoods) from which sounds issue forth (the weirwoods are known to 'rustle' and 'flutter' among other sounds making up the 'collective' orchestration in their musical repertoire).  Tellingly, the voice of the seeds evokes a death 'rattle', linking the powers of the weirwood to death-- particularly the animation of the dead.

If your metaphor interpretation is correct, we have black meteor symbols down in the weirwood workroom. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Jade Sea = green sea/see (I'm beginning to sound like a stuck record, aren't I?)  Bloodraven's hollow in the middle of nowhere -- the endless expanse of snow and ice which itself is a kind of sea -- 'half a world away' can be seen as a kind of island growing the plant holding the power of life and death alike = weirwoods.

Similarly, the godswood at Winterfell, following the sack and burning, is compared to an 'island in the sea of chaos Winterfell had become.'

ooh that's a good god's eye one, a green island in a sea of fire. Nice.

[ravenous reader]

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

ooh that's a good god's eye one, a green island in a sea of fire. Nice.

What in your opinion is the significance of the green within the fire?  There seems to be an inversion, since normally one would expect the sea to be green!

If the meteor/dragon landed at Winterfell, that is ground zero for magical sword material.  Perhaps the heart tree sprung up from the meteor seed flung from the womb-tomb of Kali (we were discussing last night/this morning..?) -- from the heart of winter.  The stars/comets in the icily cold pitiless void are the hearts of winter.

Therefore, the heart of winter is fire.  The heart of summer is ice.

[ravenous reader]

ETA:  I think we can both see the implication that Dawn forged from the heart of a fallen star who became a Star-k is the original 'Ice.'  Burning ice or frozen fire -- I haven't decided yet!

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

...and Sansa has lots of soiled clothing incidents, including dying the Hound's White Cloak green

And you know the Aero the arm of the solar king and Royce Redarm just screams The Temple of Doom with the dude chanting Kali Ma while holding a still bleeding heart and blood running down his arm. 

And on that note, the Mexica/Aztecs (I prefer Mexica -Meh she ka- as it was their name for themselves but I digress) on the first day of the new cycle of the calendar would take a sacrificial victim, carve open their chest with an obsidian dagger then the priests would light a fire in the chest of the person. Its called the New Fire ceremony, it would happen every 52 years and it was meant to stop the end of the world. And the dude that was sacrificed on the first day of the new year in the purple wedding was Joffrey, the lion cub/fake stag king. And as a side note, the arms of captured warriors would go to the warrior who captured them and then were eaten. 

[LmL]

32 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What in your opinion is the significance of the green within the fire?  There seems to be an inversion, since normally one would expect the sea to be green!

If the meteor/dragon landed at Winterfell, that is ground zero for magical sword material.  Perhaps the heart tree sprung up from the meteor seed flung from the womb-tomb of Kali (we were discussing last night/this morning..?) -- from the heart of winter.  The stars/comets in the icily cold pitiless void are the hearts of winter.

Therefore, the heart of winter is fire.  The heart of summer is ice.

 I guess I have never explained the gods eye metaphor to you before. it's like this – we know the moon was an eclipse position when you got struck –  it wandered too close to the sun.  The sun, therefore, is like an eyeball, with the moon as its pupil.  The lake known as the gods eye shows the same pattern – the lake is the lake of fire, the sun, and the isle of faces is the pupil. There are a ton of quotes about the moon being like an eye or eyes that are like the moon. There are also many great quotes about the gods eye lake, about it appearing to be on fire, or about it appearing to be a sheet of hammered bronze, that sort of thing. Thus, the part you pointed out about Winterfell is perfect – the godswood is the pupil, analogous to the isle of faces, while fire rages all around it.  This is also another clue about there being a strong link between Azor Ahai reborn and greenseers, between the meteors and the isle of faces. 

[Pain killer Jane]

5 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

I honestly don't understand why such things are not taught at school... Like, wth... Here there is even a special subjects called 'Knowledge of Culture', and each week I have 5 Polish & literature lessons... Yet Norse mythology, in fact no mythology except Greek (and Roman) is never mentioned...

And than they wonder why so many people don't read books - and why would they do that if they don't understand methaphors, context, symbolism, archetypes? If sb mentions Odin, Loki, Thor, Ragnarok they'll think about Marvel, not myths...

They barely know where Adam's apple and snake symbolism comes from...

And writers... How young, future writers will continue this tradition if they don't even know about it... 

Well...

Let's hope that GRRM's genius is understood and widely known some day, and that sb will be inspired by ASOIAF and continue to carry this ancient torch.

Most of my personal exposure came from my step-father who was a linguist. He had me reading the Odyssey at age 10 and would tell me about his experiences in Russia, Cuba, Canada, and Angola. If I didn't have someone like that in my life, I would have never picked up on mythology, anthropology and any of the millions of other things I am interested in. However, in terms of mythological writers and piqueing the interests of the younger generation, I like Rick Riordan and his book series; the Greek one, The Egyptian one, and now the Norse one (whose first book is called The Sword of Summer). 

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

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The leaves had to be aged, and soaked in a wash of limes and sugar water and certain rare spices from the Summer Isles.

I'm sure you could unpack this one for us @Pain killer Jane !  Note the limes and sugar evoke an ice frosting, like on a cake -- a potentially deadly pie that one!

The wash of limes to me sounds like the treatment to lighten hair.
Sugar water is often given to bees and butterflies
rare spices from the Summer Isles would be:
nutmeg- and mace (and we just love a morning star) but anyway nutmeg is a seed and was once considered an abortifacient, and has hallucinogenic properties when consumed in large quantities. 
cinnamon- tree bark that when striped off and dried roll up to become quills. In the context of the strangler, it would a poisonous quill. but also mind you that quill as in pen and the dip-pens are nicknamed "crowquill pens' which is a curious name for a steel pen. (It would be good to research the Penrose family). And then the writ in blood theme. 
pepper- a vine (strangling vines anyone) and peppercorns were once termed black gold  

and your forgetting that after the liquid is drained away from the leaves (like tea) it is thickened with ash. I wonder what kind of ash? 

and to relate it to our corn king. Corn was known to cause pellegra and malnutrition because it was not treated correctly for consumption. It needed to be treated with a wash of lime and ash. 

[LmL]

I have to say I am pretty skeptical about the whole lime / plaster ideas. I've heard you guys talk about a few times and it always seems very bizarre to me. I don't say anything because some of my most brilliant friends here think it's a thing, but I'm just like... *awkward silence*

I feel the same about the entire north of the Wall being "under the sea" - I'm not totally against it, but I'm not sold either. And I don't by anyone's interpretations of Patchface, lol. Silver seaweed and nennymoans? Could be anything, I have yet to hear any compelling explanation. PKJ and RR you know I think you are brilliant but when you start talking about Nennymoans and seaweed it sounds like greek to me, ha ha. I'm sure my stuff sounds that way to people sometimes, and most likely I just don't get it, but yeah... I don't get it. RR you have interpreted that Cressen scene as having to do with weirwoods, based on the idea that the strangler comes from a seed, but that's pretty thin to me. Stars are seeds too, a lot of things are seeds. I don't see any weirwood or greenseer allusions myself. I also don't follow you on the gargoyle droppings thing. 

Sorry, just feeling a little lost on my own thread. At least you all didn't fire up the anagram stuff, most of which seems like bollocks to me. Wise red leaves? I call bullshit. It's one thing to play with homonyms like sea and see, but come on, complex anagrams? Anyway. 

/ humbug

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

The Wolfswood. Which is interesting, since according to Bear hunting taboos, the Bear is the protector and shepherd of the woods. 

 

I always figured the first part of Bran's life was the Icarus myth combined with the star Vega being a 'falling eagle'.  

I think that the bears and wolves are the same in regards to the wood - they are apex predators which keep the food chain in balance. When Bran is in summer, he thinks of himself as prince of the greenwood, so I think the bears and wolves are pretty similar. They play the role of forest protector, like the horned gods and nature deities. 

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So @LmL I decided to move our convo of soiled knights to here from Pateron.

This is what I was going to answer. 

That is essentially what I am saying. It would be a good parallel to Jon Snow, the wolf-dog/burned man scarecrow corn king defender being resurrected by fire magic- possibly with the help of other magic- in order to fight burned/blackened fiery knights covered in fake snow. It isn't a direct 1:1 correlation but it can be a distortion of this  "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18) and inverting the "clean as new fallen snow" saying.And it would further the whole virus/vaccination theme.

And there is a theme of bodily functions being seen as good things, "Tywin shitting gold", "Robb pissing green"(which is supposed to be a bad thing but being green brings abundance and fertility, which in this light, Robb pissing green is basically fertilizing), "Bronn of the Blackwater becoming Lord Stokeworth which provided food for KL before the Tyrells." (And Black water is the label placed on water contaminated with feces and urine.). The hand taking the shit to build when the king dreams. 

@ravenous reader provided the parallel of the snowmen knights on the battlements of Winterfell to the gargoyles and the Others. 

And I like the Arys explanation. But I think the closest parallel was the explanation of Sansa.

 However in the Arys explanation you provided for me, Aero soiling Arys as the arm of the solar king, Doran is most intriguing because it reminded me of Royce IV 'Redarm' Bolton taking out the entrails of his victims. And taking the entrails of people would essentially have that person covered in shit and blood. 
Another thing I am considering is soiled the same as being cursed. But that is another train of thought. 

Regarding piss; wildfire is pyromancers piss. The idea of Robb pissing green has to be an allusion to wildfire, or to the meaning of wildfire - greenseer fire. The fire of the greenseer connection. Robb is a green boy (man) until he dies, and that's when he really becomes the King of Winter. Same with Jon - a green boy until he goes through the symbolic resurrection ceremony of taking the vows before the heart tree. I'll talk about that a bit in part 3, but the point is that it's cool to see living Robb associated with greenseer fire. It also reminds us of sipping from the green fountain of course. I think there is something about Tormunds mead here too as the piss of the gods or something, someone mentioned it one time but I forgot how it goes exactly. 

[Bluetiger]

GRRM originally planned to title final ASOIAF book 'The Time for Wolves'... 

"Brothers will fight

and kill each other,

sisters' children

will defile kinship.

It is harsh in the world,

whoredom rife

—an axe age, a sword age

—shields are riven—

a wind age, a wolf age—

before the world goes headlong.

No man will have

mercy on another"

 

Ragnarok shall start when:

- Fimbulwinter comes, two humans survive by hiding in Hoddmimis Holt

- wolves/wargs consume sun and moon, but before that sun goddess Sól will bear a daughter

- herdsman-giant Eggther sits on mound and plays his harp

- red rooster (Swyft?) Fjalar (=deceiver, hider) crows in the forrest of Galdvidr (gallows-wood) in Jotunheim, the land of the giants

- golden rooster Gullinkambi crows in Valhalla in Asgard

- unnamed soot-red rooster crows in the halls of Hel

- Garm howls in halls of Gnipahellir, his bindings will break and he'll run free

- Heimdall blows Gjallarhorn (yelling horn)

- Yggdrasil shudders and groans

- jotun Hrym comes from the east, leading his hosts to wage war against the gods

- serpent of Midgard Jormungandr writhes causing waves to crash

- ship Naglfar (nail ship) breaks free and sails for Asgard, carrying Loki and Hrym + their army from the east

- Hresvelgr, giant transformed into eagle, who sits at the edge of world and creates winds shrieks

- fire jotnar of fire-world Muspell come forth

- Surtr joins the battle, coming from the south (Starfall in Dorne?), his sword shines brighter than the sun

- Odin is killed by wolf Fenrir, but his son Vidarr avenges him by avenges his father by rending Fenrir's jaws apart and stabbing it in the heart with his spear

- Thor fight Jormungandr and kills him, but he's wounded and after taking nine steps collapses

- Freyr fight fire giant Surtr and loses

- sun becomes black, stars vanish, sea waves claim the land, flames cover heavens

 

- eagle rises from the sea and land reappears

- eagle hunts fish in waterfall on mountain

- gods meet at field of Ithavoll , they discuss events they witnessed and runes

- gods notice pieces from game they've once played in the grass

- Baldr and Hodr return from Hel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluetiger]

Another interesting thing - Norse wights/zombies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draug?wprov=sfla1

I'll put it in spoiler tag as it's quite long.

"After a person’s death, the main indication that the person will become a draugr is that the corpse is not in a horizontal position. In most cases, the corpse is found in an upright or sitting position, and this is an indication that the dead might return. Any mean, nasty, or greedy person can become a draugr. As noted by Ármann, “most medieval Icelandic ghosts are evil or marginal people. If not dissatisfied or evil, they are unpopular”.This is the prime way that draugar share characteristics with ghosts, since any person can become a ghost.

(...)

 

Traditionally, a pair of open iron scissors were placed on the chest of the recently deceased, and straws or twigs might be hidden among their clothes. The big toes were tied together or needles were driven through the soles of the feet in order to keep the dead from being able to walk. Tradition also held that the coffin should be lifted and lowered in three different directions as it was carried from the house to confuse a possible draugr's sense of direction.

The most effective means of preventing the return of the dead was believed to be the corpse door. A special door was built, through which the corpse was carried feet-first with people surrounding it so the corpse couldn't see where it was going. The door was then bricked up to prevent a return. It is speculated that this belief began in Denmark and spread throughout the Norse culture. The belief was founded on the idea that the dead could only leave through the way they entered.

In Eyrbyggja saga, the draugar infesting the home of the Icelander Kiartan were driven off by holding a "door-doom". One by one the draugar were summoned to the door-doom and given judgment and were forced out of the home by this legal method. The home was then purified with holy water to ensure they never came back.

(...)

In more recent Scandinavian folklore, the draug (the modern spelling used in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden) is often identified with the spirits of mariners drowned at sea. The creature is said to possess a distinctly human form, with the exception that its head is composed entirely of seaweed. In other tellings, the draug is described as being a headless fisherman, dressed in oilskin and sailing in half a boat 

(...)

Draugar possess superhuman strength, can increase their size at will, and carry the unmistakable stench of decay. "The appearance of a draugr was that of a dead body: swollen, blackened and generally hideous to look at." They are undead figures from Norse and Icelandic mythology that appear to retain some semblance of intelligence. They exist either to guard their treasure, wreak havoc on living beings, or torment those who had wronged them in life. The draugr's ability to increase its size also increased its weight, and the body of the draugr was described as being extremely heavy.

(...)

The draugr's victims were not limited to trespassers in its howe. The roaming undead decimated livestock by running the animals to death while either riding them or pursuing them in some hideous, half-flayed form. 

(...)

[Bluetiger]

 

btw, you've mentioned wicker men in your last essays, so here are few things I've found:

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A series of chisel-cut handholds made a ladder in the granite of the tower's inner wall. Hodor hummed tunelessly as he went down hand under hand, Bran bouncing against his back in the wicker seat that Maester Luwin had fashioned for him. Luwin had gotten the idea from the baskets the women used to carry firewood on their backs; after that it had been a simple matter of cutting legholes and attaching some new straps to spread Bran's weight more evenly. It was not as good as riding Dancer, but there were places Dancer could not go, and this did not shame Bran the way it did when Hodor carried him in his arms like a baby. Hodor seemed to like it too, though with Hodor it was hard to tell. The only tricky part was doors. Sometimes Hodor forgot that he had Bran on his back, and that could be painful when he went through a door.

 

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For near a fortnight there had been so many comings and goings that Robb ordered both portcullises kept up and the drawbridge down between them, even in the dead of night. A long column of armored lancers was crossing the moat between the walls when Bran emerged from the tower; Karstark men, following their lords into the castle. They wore black iron halfhelms and black woolen cloaks patterned with the white sunburst. Hodor trotted along beside them, smiling to himself, his boots thudding against the wood of the drawbridge. The riders gave them queer looks as they went by, and once Bran heard someone guffaw. He refused to let it trouble him. "Men will look at you," Maester Luwin had warned him the first time they had strapped the wicker basket around Hodor's chest. "They will look, and they will talk, and some will mock you." Let them mock, Bran thought. No one mocked him in his bedchamber, but he would not live his life in bed.

So Bran is the wicker man.

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The godswood was an island of peace in the sea of chaos that Winterfell had become. Hodor made his way through the dense stands of oak and ironwood and sentinels, to the still pool beside the heart tree. He stopped under the gnarled limbs of the weirwood, humming. Bran reached up over his head and pulled himself out of his seat, drawing the dead weight of his legs up through the holes in the wicker basket. He hung for a moment, dangling, the dark red leaves brushing against his face, until Hodor lifted him and lowered him to the smooth stone beside the water. "I want to be by myself for a while," he said. "You go soak. Go to the pools."

 

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Jon found Samwell Tarly with the other stewards, watering his horses. He had three to tend: his own mount, and two packhorses, each bearing a large wire-and-wicker cage full of ravens. The birds flapped their wings at Jon's approach and screamed at him through the bars. A few shrieks sounded suspiciously like words. "Have you been teaching them to talk?" he asked Sam.

Btw, anagram of weirwood is wire wood - the trees are always listening, aren't they?

 

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On the wall beside the door hung a basket, stoutly made of wicker and leather, with holes cut for Bran's legs. Hodor slid his arms through the straps and cinched the wide belt tight around his chest, then knelt beside the bed. Bran used the bars sunk into the wall to support himself as he swung the dead weight of his legs into the basket and through the holes.

 

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The hunters approached warily, perhaps fearing arrows. Jon counted fourteen, with eight dogs. Their large round shields were made of skins stretched over woven wicker and painted with skulls. About half of them hid their faces behind crude helms of wood and boiled leather. On either wing, archers notched shafts to the strings of small wood-and-horn bows, but did not loose. The rest seemed to be armed with spears and mauls. One had a chipped stone axe. They wore only what bits of armor they had looted from dead rangers or stolen during raids. Wildlings did not mine or smelt, and there were few smiths and fewer forges north of the Wall.

 

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Meera strapped the wicker basket to Hodor's back and helped lift Bran into it, easing his useless legs through the holes. He had a queer flutter in his belly. He knew what awaited them above, but that did not make it any less fearful. As they set off, he turned to give his father one last look, and it seemed to Bran that there was a sadness in Lord Eddard's eyes, as if he did not want them to go. We have to, he thought. It's time.

- Bran, a legless greenseer can't become a wight, if Norse mythology is correct.

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The arrow made a soft hiss as it left his string. A moment later there was a grunt, and suddenly only two shadows were loping across the yard. They ran all the faster, but Jon had already pulled a second arrow from his quiver. This time he hurried the shot too much, and missed. The wildlings were gone by the time he nocked again. He searched for another target, and found four, rushing around the empty shell of the Lord Commander's Keep. The moonlight glimmered off their spears and axes, and the gruesome devices on their round leathern shields; skulls and bones, serpents, bear claws, twisted demonic faces. Free folk, he knew. The Thenns carried shields of black boiled leather with bronze rims and bosses, but theirs were plain and unadorned. These were the lighter wickershields of raiders.

 

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It's only the kitchens. Bran wondered what she'd think when she saw Winterfell, if she ever did.

It took them a few minutes to gather their things and hoist Bran into his wicker seat on Hodor's back. By the time they were ready to go, Gilly sat nursing her babe by the fire. "You'll come back for me," she said to Sam.

"As soon as I can," he promised, "then we'll go somewhere warm." When he heard that, part of Bran wondered what he was doing. Will I ever go someplace warm again?

 a wickerman + fire? that's not a good idea

 

Alayne: 

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Some of the winch chains were fixed to wicker baskets, others to stout oaken buckets. The largest of those was taller than Alayne, with iron bands girding its dark brown staves. Even so, her heart was in her throat as she took Robert's hand and helped him in. Once the hatch was closed behind them, the wood surrounded them on all sides. Only the top was open. It is best that way, she told herself, we can't look down. Below them was only Sky and sky. Six hundred feet of sky. For a moment she found herself wondering how long it had taken her aunt to fall that distance, and what her last thought had been as the mountain rushed up to meet her. No, I mustn't think of that. I mustn't!

is Lysa, wife of a falcon, mad as a dragon a falling meteor?

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Swaying in his wicker basket on Hodor's back, the boy hunched down, ducking his head as the big stableboy passed beneath the limb of an oak. The snow was falling again, wet and heavy. Hodor walked with one eye frozen shut, his thick brown beard a tangle of hoarfrost, icicles drooping from the ends of his bushy mustache. One gloved hand still clutched the rusty iron longsword he had taken from the crypts below Winterfell, and from time to time he would lash out at a branch, knocking loose a spray of snow. "Hod-d-d-dor," he would mutter, his teeth chattering.

 

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Meera slid down from the elk's back. She and her brother helped lift Bran out of the wicker basket. "Might be the wildlings left some food behind," she said.

That proved a forlorn hope. Inside the longhall they found the ashes of a fire, floors of hard-packed dirt, a chill that went bone deep. But at least they had a roof above their heads and log walls to keep the wind off. A stream ran nearby, covered with a film of ice. The elk had to crack it with his hoof to drink. Once Bran and Jojen and Hodor were safely settled, Meera fetched back some chunks of broken ice for them to suck on. The melting water was so cold it made Bran shudder.

Will some sarifce to Bran, or of Bran bring nothing? But the water is melting, so maybe it'll work.

 

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The arms most wildlings carry are little more than sticks, thought Jon. Wooden clubs, stone axes, mauls, spears with fire-hardened points, knives of bone and stone and dragonglass, wicker shields, bone armor, boiled leather. The Thenns worked bronze, and raiders like the Weeper carried stolen steel and iron swords looted off some corpse … but even those were oft of ancient vintage, dinted from years of hard use and spotted with rust.

Bloodraven is a wickerman as well?

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This time it was warriors who came forward. And not just one hundred of them. Five hundred, Jon Snow judged, as they moved out from beneath the trees, perhaps as many as a thousand. One in every ten of them came mounted but all of them came armed. Across their backs they bore round wicker shields covered with hides and boiled leather, displaying painted images of snakes and spiders, severed heads, bloody hammers, broken skulls, and demons. A few were clad in stolen steel, dinted oddments of armor looted from the corpses of fallen rangers. Others had armored themselves in bones, like Rattleshirt. All wore fur and leather.

 

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But they also live meanly, and are not free from starvation, from the extremities of cold, from barbaric warfare, or from the depredations of their own kind. The lawlessness beyond the Wall is nothing to envy, as any man who has seen wildlings can attest. (And many have so attested, in a number of works based on accounts from the rangers of the Night's Watch). Their pride in their poverty, in their stone axes and wicker-wood shields, and in their flea-infested pelts, is part of the reason they are set apart from the people in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

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In the southeast the proud city-states of the Qaathi arose; in the forests to the north, along the shores of the Shivering Sea, were the domains of the woods walkers, a diminutive folk whom many maesters believe to have been kin to the children of the forest; between them could be found the hill kingdoms of the Cymmeri, the long-legged Gipps with their wicker shields and lime-stiffened hair, and the brown-skinned palehaired Zoqora, who rode to war in chariots.

 

Polish wikipedia entry on wickerman is more detailed than English one, but sadly lacks sources...

Here is translation of the description:

'At twilight of that day, lone drumms called people to the field of celebration, where members of various groups created rings, which were supposed to increase energy of holding each other's hands. Spinning, they would create a force of one element, waving ribbons of four colurs in their hands (yellow for air, red for fire, blue for water and green for the soil). Those rings would encircle Wickerman, than people would split and wrap him with the ribbons. These whole scene, full of loud drumming, monothonic sound of drumms and singing was directed to the moon. Suddenly there was silence, voices drowned in the soil, merging with it, this whole tumult, as a symbol of chaos was buried in earth. Then, the priestess, clad in ceremonial robes, would come near the Wickerman, calling him 'destructive human thoughtlesness made flesh'. Whole group would call for the fire to come down upon him, not as a manifestation of hate or destruction, but as a process of changing and tranforming all that lives. Low flames started to engulf Wickerman, The flame spread and quickly the early evening was illuminated by the Wickarman, burning like a torch. People surrounding the Wickerman quickly listed all bad and evil things they knew, the things that should be changed, while the flames rose higher, there came even more wishes and prayers, the voices became louder. It was belived that this whole energy would go up with the flames and cause purification and healing Earth of evil and meanness (mean people could rise as undead). When the fire fades, the voices became quieter, but the drums were still playing. Night once again became full of singing and dancing.'

Another thing mentioned is that for the sacrifice to work, the person had to come into the wickerman willingly, so if it was some slave or prisoner, they'd have to somehow deceive him to make him come in.

[Bluetiger]

I belive the scene Bran witnesses via weirnet s is some kind of sacrifice related to Winterfylith:

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I didn't know where to post it, but I think it fits here...

Today I was reasearching germanic and anglo-saxon month names, as I was looking for inspiration for month names in world about I'm currently writing short story.... and I found something rather curious...

 

In Anglo-Saxon and Germanic original calandar, the one used before another was adapted, name of October was Winterfylleth. According to Wikipedia it marked and celebrated beggining of winter. Saint Bede wrote: 'The old English people split the year into two seasons, summer and winter, placing six months — during which the days are longer than the nights — in summer, and the other six in winter. They called the month when the winter season began Wintirfylliþ, a word composed of "winter" and "full moon", because winter began on the first full moon of that month. '
During that time known as Winter Nights three sacrifices were carried out. After October there was Blót, the month of sacrifces...

So, Wintefell = place where winter fell upon the world/place where winter has fallen/ winter full moon that brought the winter.

And than we have this:

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After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

That son who has to avenge his parents is either Sigurd or Vidarr. That woman is similar to Hel.

Druids would use golden sickles to cut mistletoe from oaks.

Sickle often appears in descripcions of the moon.

Sickle is used to harves crops, so in a way this whole scene is a harvest feast sacrifice, at Winterfell = place where winter fell, during the month of blood. 'Drummed against the earth' - this whole ritual might be somewhat based on legends of Long Night - but probably twisted by the mist of centuries, as they belive sacrifce will defeat winter, while in fact it what a scarifice that brought it.

 

Wow... I became such spammer now... I think I wrote more posts this week than in the last 6 months.

 

Edit: wicker is usually made from willow, and:

Page about willow symbolism says that:

"The willow tree figures in mythology and literature as a symbol of the moon, water, grief, healing and everlasting life.These themes refer to the willow's propensity to grow near a source of water, which can be an underground spring or stream. Its reputation as a healer was enhanced by the fact that salicylic acid, an ingredient in aspirin, comes from the bark of the willow tree"

[Bluetiger]

Holly is rarely mentioned in ASOIAF, almost always as spearwife's name, but there is one other scene where it shows up:

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King Humfrey was the first to die that day, it is written. His heir, Prince Humfrey, took up his crown and sword, but died a short time later, whereupon the second son, Hollis, did the same, only to be killed in turn. And so it went, the bloody crown of the last river king passing from son to son, and finally to King Humfrey's brother, all within the space of a single afternoon. By the time the sun went down, House Teague had been entirely extinguished, along with the Kingdom of Rivers and Hills. The fight in which they died has hereafter been known as the Battle of Six Kings, in honor of Arlan III the Storm King and the five river kings his stormlanders slew, some of whom reigned for minutes, not even hours.

- I think this is westerosi version of Oak vs Holly King - while in our myths Winter King reigns for 6 months, and so does Summer King, on Westeros the seasons have varying lenghts - sometimes winter reigns supreme for years, sometimes summer.

In Celtic traditions, there was a midwinter holiday called Alban Arthan:

"In the recent Druidic tradition, Alban Arthan is a seasonal festival at theWinter solstice. The name derives from the writings of Iolo Morganwg, the 19th-century radical poet and forger. Alban Arthan translates to The Quarter of the Little Bear. An alternative respelling is Alban Arthuan.

On the solstice, it has recently been speculated (with very little evidence) that druids would gather by the oldest mistletoe-clad oak. The Chief Druid would make his way to the mistletoe to be cut whilst below, other Druids would hold open a sheet to catch it, making sure none of it touched the ground. With his golden sickle, and in one chop, the Chief Druid would remove the mistletoe to be caught below.  The early Christian church banned the use of mistletoe because of its association with Druids.

The holiday is observed in a manner that commemorates the death of the Holly King i dentified with the wren bird (symbolizing the old year and the shortened sun) at the hands of his son and successor, the robin redbreast Oak King (the new year and the new sun that begins to grow). The Battle of the Holly King and Oak King is re-enacted at rituals, both open and closed. The battle is usually in the form of words but there have been some sword battles."

And guess what Humphrey means ...

"Humphrey means "peaceful warrior" (from the Germanic elements hun "warrior, bear cub" and frid "peace")

The Normans introduced this name to England, where it replaced the Old English cognate Hunfrith, and it was regularly used through the Middle Ages. "

 

So, Westeros lacks the Holly/Oak King balance..

Btw, translated descriptions of Holly & Oak Kings from Spanish Wikipedia:

 

 

 

Holly King

An ancient European deity, which ruled during the dark half of the year, that is, from the summer solstice to the winter solstice, with the King of the Oak reigning in the other half of the year. The King of Holly looks like an old man with a white beard, who wears green robes and is adorned with holly leaves and fruits, and was worshiped as a deity of abundance and spiritual help, and among his attributes are deer . The air element corresponds to it. It is believed that it is the deity from which largely the character of Santa Claus, mixed with Christian myths, which would be reinforced with that at the end of his reign, on the winter solstice, is replaced by the King of Oak and He says goodbye until he reigns again, coinciding this date with the present Christmas. At present, many Neopagans have recovered their cult and they usually honor to him in the celebration called Yule.

Oak King

The King of the Oak is an ancient European deity, reigning on the luminous half of the year, ie from the winter solstice to the summer solstice, being in counterpoint with the King of Holly. He is usually depicted as a man younger than the King of Holly, who often dresses in red and is adorned with oak leaves, being a deity of luminosity and rebirth. The Neopagans have regained their cult and honor both gods in the festivities called Litha and Yule.

So Oak King should be younger than Holly King... Hmmm... So I might be wrong about Hollis and Humphrey... Hollis should be older son, not younger...

Do you think that Holly King = holy king?

As in:

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Sansa was shocked. "But Baelor the Blessed was a great king. He walked the Boneway barefoot to make peace with Dorne, and rescued the Dragonknight from a snakepit. The vipers refused to strike him because he was so pure and holy."

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High above, a crow screamed loudly. He was perched on the statue of King Baelor, shitting on his holy head. "There is much and more you can do for Tommen, my lord," Jaime said. "Perhaps you would do Her Grace the honor of supping with her, after the evening services?"

 

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"He shall. He must." Aeron's voice thundered like the waves. "But who? Who shall sit in Balon's place? Who shall rule these holy isles? Is he here among us now?" The priest spread his hands wide. "Who shall be king over us?"

A holly winter king Euron?

 

and here is desription of Baelor from SSM:

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Baelor the Blessed. Baelor the Beloved. The septon king. No sword or armor here, only a septon's white robes tied off with a rope belt. A young man, in his early twenties, but very thin (from repeated fasts) and frail looking, with a gentle, almost beatific smile (think Jesus). One hand raised in blessing, the other holding a holy book (black leather, with a seven-pointed star stamped on the cover in gold leaf). His long hair and beard remind one of Jesus too, although Baelor's are the typical Targaryen silver-gold color. Wears a crown of flowers and vines.

So, Baelor is another Holly King, dressed like a druid?

(stops spamming)

[ravenous reader]

On 12/8/2016 at 8:21 PM, LmL said:

when you start talking about Nennymoans and seaweed it sounds like greek to me, ha ha

When I bring up the nennymoans, it brings forth in you many moans (and groans)!   I know I know oh ho ho...

(P.S. If it makes you feel better, think of them as 'many moons')  

 

[LmL]

32 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

When I bring up the nennymoans, it brings forth in you many moans (and groans)!   I know I know oh ho ho...

(P.S. If it makes you feel better, think of them as 'many moons')  

 

Yes, they make me moan for sure. The one I truly do not get is lime wash stuff. I don't see how the trees can be coated in anything, because the wood is repeatedly compared to bone. If anything, they would seem to have been stripped of their skin. Another thing I thought of - remember how I was talking about the trees being zombies, or Undead somehow, or something similar? Well, I just realized, they're"WIGHT TREES."

[Isobel Harper]

42 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

When I bring up the nennymoans, it brings forth in you many moans (and groans)!   I know I know oh ho ho...

(P.S. If it makes you feel better, think of them as 'many moons')  

 

"Nennymoans" kind of reminds me of the song Merillion sings when Lysa almost throws Sansa out the Moondoor.  "Hey nonny, hey nonny, hey!" http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_False_and_the_Fair

The wiki is missing a line.  It begins with "the lord he came a-riding upon a rainy day."  

I think the song is about a man bedding a woman, then leaving her? 

ETA: The wiki states that the song was inspired by Shakespeare.  Some of those lines include sighs and sounds of woe, like moaning. 

Then sigh not so, but let them go,

And be you blithe and bonny,

Converting all your sounds of woe

Into Hey, nonny nonny.

[ravenous reader]

18 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

"Nennymoans" kind of reminds me of the song Merillion sings when Lysa almost throws Sansa out the Moondoor.  "Hey nonny, hey nonny, hey!" http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_False_and_the_Fair

The wiki is missing a line.  It begins with "the lord came a-riding on a rainy day."  

I think the song is about a man bedding a woman, then leaving her? 

He he.  More proof that the nennymoans are connected to moons, as I was saying.  

However, you'd better not derail @LmL's thread nor his equanimity with more talk of moaning nennys and nonnys!

It's a reference to Shakespeare:

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William Shakespeare

"Sigh No More, Ladies..."

(From "Much Ado about Nothing")

Sigh no more, ladies, sigh nor more;
    Men were deceivers ever;
One foot in sea and one on shore,
    To one thing constant never;
        Then sigh not so,
        But let them go,
    And be you blithe and bonny;
Converting all your sounds of woe
    Into. Hey nonny, nonny.

Sing no more ditties, sing no mo,
    Or dumps so dull and heavy;
The fraud of men was ever so,
    Since summer first was leavy.
        Then sigh not so, 
        But let them go,
    And be you blithe and bonny,
Converting all your sounds of woe
    Into. Hey, nonny, nonny.

'Leavy' is an archaic form of 'leafy' tying (somehow) into our tree theme...

I agree the song is about betrayal, in this case Littlefinger's betrayal of Lysa, but also on a deeper level of Sansa. Ultimately, it's about the prime deceiver Satan the serpent in the leavy garden of paradise, of whom Littlefinger is his latest 'incarnation'.  The fall out of the moon door represents 'man's' (and indeed woman's) fall from grace after partaking of the forbidden fruit of knowledge:

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A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

Sansa shuddered. They had been twelve days crossing the Neck, rumbling down a crooked causeway through an endless black bog, and she had hated every moment of it. The air had been damp and clammy, the causeway so narrow they could not even make proper camp at night, they had to stop right on the kingsroad. Dense thickets of half-drowned trees pressed close around them, branches dripping with curtains of pale fungus. Huge flowers bloomed in the mud and floated on pools of stagnant water, but if you were stupid enough to leave the causeway to pluck them, there were quicksands waiting to suck you down, and snakes watching from the trees, and lizard-lions floating half-submerged in the water, like black logs with eyes and teeth.

The three perils lying in wait for Sansa in the swamp are an allegory for her three stagnant 'love affairs'...

Accordingly, the quicksand, snake, and lizard-lion represent Joffrey, Littlefinger, and Tyrion, respectively.

Littlefinger is the 'snake watching from the tree', the snake pretending to be a bird, who is having the last laugh.