Robert relationship with Stannis

[devilish]

The relationship between the two elder Baratheon brothers fascinates me. They are the two sides of the coin. Robert is an extrovert, Stannis is an introvert. Robert leads from the front, Stannis leads from the back, Robert is a charmer, Stannis is a bore, Robert is instinct driven, Stannis loves to follow the rule book, Robert strive in chaos and is easily bored when things are in order, Stannis loves order and duty and chaos get the worse out of him.

But what fascinates me is how Robert treats Stannis despite his younger brother had always obeyed his brother

a- He leaves him to starve in Storm's end. Stannis resist till the very end only for Robert to give the shine to Ned for leading a relief force.

b- He blames Stannis for allowing the Targs to flee dragon's stone despite the fact that Stannis couldn't possibly prevent it

c- When Stannis was the second most powerful man in the realm he was married off to some girl who wasn't even part of the Florent's main family branch. Robert ruined the wedding by deflowering the bride's cousin in Stannis wedding bed.

d- He gave Stannis the poorer and less significant Dragonstone as opposed to Renly who was made Lord of the Stormlands.

 It seems that time and time again Robert was provoking Stannis to rebel, knowing perfectly well he could easily maul him with his warhammer. Why would he do that? Was he afraid of his dire brother?

 

 

[Mat92]

I think the short answer is: Robert is a dick haha. 

Unless you drank with him or joked with him, Robert didn't have much time for you after his crowning. Even he and Ned had good rappoir despite Ned's personality. 

[theblackdragonI]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

The relationship between the two elder Baratheon brothers fascinates me. They are the two sides of the coin. Robert is an extrovert, Stannis is an introvert. Robert leads from the front, Stannis leads from the back, Robert is a charmer, Stannis is a bore, Robert is instinct driven, Stannis loves to follow the rule book, Robert strive in chaos and is easily bored when things are in order, Stannis loves order and duty and chaos get the worse out of him.

But what fascinates me is how Robert treats Stannis despite his younger brother had always obeyed his brother

a- He leaves him to starve in Storm's end. Stannis resist till the very end only for Robert to give the shine to Ned for leading a relief force.

b- He blames Stannis for allowing the Targs to flee dragon's stone despite the fact that Stannis couldn't possibly prevent it

c- When Stannis was the second most powerful man in the realm he was married off to some girl who wasn't even part of the Florent's main family branch. Robert ruined the wedding by deflowering the bride's cousin in Stannis wedding bed.

d- He gave Stannis the poorer and less significant Dragonstone as opposed to Renly who was made Lord of the Stormlands.

 It seems that time and time again Robert was provoking Stannis to rebel, knowing perfectly well he could easily maul him with his warhammer. Why would he do that? Was he afraid of his dire brother?

 

 

I think it's more complicated than Robert trying to provoke him. I feel that Robert as the older brother expected total loyalty and obedience despite how he treated his brothers. They may have been close before Robert was sent to the Vale, but watching their parents die in front of them must have changed them both in a major way. Robert becoming loud, rash and angry, and Stannis becoming quiet, reserved and withdrawn. From what we know of the Rebellion, Robert probably only saw Stannis for a very short time (for the first time in years) and after spending years with Ned and Jon having a great time, found not enough to make a genuine connection with Stannis.

As regards your points:

a) He didn't leave Stannis in Storm's End as a punishment, he had him hold their ancestral home because he trusted Stannis more than any of his vassals to never surrender and keep Renly safe. He needed to have his home secure to move against the Targs and knew Stannis could do it.

b -  Yes he overreacted at the Targs escaping but I'd imagine he would have done that regardless of who failed to capture them. He just hated Targs, he even turned against Ned and Jon on that.

c) Florent marriage and upset is a big flaw on Robert's behalf. They're a proud house though and we don't really know if there was that much better matches available.

d) Stannis was his heir, traditionally the heir of the Iron Throne gets Dragonstone. Yes it's not as powerful as the Stormlands but it made Stannis one of the most powerful men in the kingdom, he assigned him to his small council and effectively let Stannis govern the realm for him alongside Jon. I don't think Stannis is too hard done by, maybe he could have petitioned for the Stormlands but didn't because of his nature. 

I think it comes down to there being too much differences between them to make a real connection. Yet they both relied on each other a lot, and never outright opposed each other. It's not like either of them we're very close with Renly either, maybe just a family thing.

[Mat92]

8 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

It's not like either of them we're very close with Renly either, maybe just a family thing.

I absolutely LOVE the line from the books comparing the Baratheon brothers to different types of metal. 

"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

[theblackdragonI]

Just now, Mat92 said:

I absolutely LOVE the line from the books comparing the Baratheon brothers to different types of metal. 

"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

Brilliant line! Sums it up well I think. Robert and Stannis despite their differences were both strong men, but Renly cares more about appearance than actual character.

[hitman47]

Stannis killed Robert with blood spell

[John Doe]

Robert liked pleasant people around him, Stannis was never one of them. That's the simple answer imho. They were too different. And maybe Stannis reminded him of the death of his parents? I'm no expert on family psychology.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

57 minutes ago, hitman47 said:

Stannis killed Robert with blood spell

What? 

Robert liked pleasant people around him, Stannis was never one of them. That's the simple answer imho. They were too different. And maybe Stannis reminded him of the death of his parents? I'm no expert on family psychology.

That makes sense. Robert is a good man but a man with emotional issues and so is Stannis.

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, theblackdragonI said:

I think it's more complicated than Robert trying to provoke him. I feel that Robert as the older brother expected total loyalty and obedience despite how he treated his brothers. They may have been close before Robert was sent to the Vale, but watching their parents die in front of them must have changed them both in a major way. Robert becoming loud, rash and angry, and Stannis becoming quiet, reserved and withdrawn. From what we know of the Rebellion, Robert probably only saw Stannis for a very short time (for the first time in years) and after spending years with Ned and Jon having a great time, found not enough to make a genuine connection with Stannis.

As regards your points:

a) He didn't leave Stannis in Storm's End as a punishment, he had him hold their ancestral home because he trusted Stannis more than any of his vassals to never surrender and keep Renly safe. He needed to have his home secure to move against the Targs and knew Stannis could do it.

b -  Yes he overreacted at the Targs escaping but I'd imagine he would have done that regardless of who failed to capture them. He just hated Targs, he even turned against Ned and Jon on that.

c) Florent marriage and upset is a big flaw on Robert's behalf. They're a proud house though and we don't really know if there was that much better matches available.

d) Stannis was his heir, traditionally the heir of the Iron Throne gets Dragonstone. Yes it's not as powerful as the Stormlands but it made Stannis one of the most powerful men in the kingdom, he assigned him to his small council and effectively let Stannis govern the realm for him alongside Jon. I don't think Stannis is too hard done by, maybe he could have petitioned for the Stormlands but didn't because of his nature. 

I think it comes down to there being too much differences between them to make a real connection. Yet they both relied on each other a lot, and never outright opposed each other. It's not like either of them we're very close with Renly either, maybe just a family thing.

Yeah I agree with all of this.  No one else was better equipped to withstand a siege than Stannis, and I think I've argued here before that giving Storm's End to Renly was not a slight to Stannis, it was a secondary move after giving Stannis Dragonstone as the heir to the Iron Throne.  I think we are influenced unduly by the fact that Stannis was a bitter baby about it, and the only perspective we ever hear as readers is Stannis viewing it as an insult.  

I also agree the Florent marriage is very odd and seems on the surface to be a dick move on Robert's behalf.  Here's the thing though - unless I'm wrong about the timeline, Stannis wed Selyse after he became Lord of Dragonstone, meaning at that point he was the head of a cadet Baratheon house.  Robert would not have been responsible for making that match, as Stannis was now the head of his own house.  Is there evidence that it was Robert who made the match, and not Stannis himself?  Is it possible that Stannis was so awful at courtship that Selyse was the best he could do?  Further, is it possible that, as the principal antagonists of the Tyrells, who remained loyal to the Targaryens until the end, Stannis viewed a Florent marriage as a strategic alliance designed to keep the Tyrells in line, since their principal regional rivals were now closely aligned with the Iron Throne?  It could be that the marriage was a pragmatic move by Stannis, influenced not only by military and political factors but also by the fact that Stannis had trouble making an appropriate match.

[Mat92]

1 hour ago, hitman47 said:

Stannis killed Robert with blood spell

You're thinking of Renly.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

You're thinking of Renly.

Also wrong. Mel killed Renly using Stannis seed. We have no proof that Stannis knew what Mel was going to do.

[Mat92]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Also wrong. Mel killed Renly using Stannis seed. We have no proof that Stannis knew what Mel was going to do.

I never commented on the specifics - I was simply stating that the commenter was likely confusing Robert with Renly, as the "blood spell" line is a lot closer to "shadow baby" than "killed by boar while drinking tainted wine."
 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Mat92 said:

I never commented on the specifics - I was simply stating that the commenter was likely confusing Robert with Renly, as the "blood spell" line is a lot closer to "shadow baby" than "killed by boar while drinking tainted wine."

Methinks by using the word killed means that someone is responsible for something, so saying that Stannis killed either Robert or Renly even by blood magic means that he is responsible for what happened. But the truth is that Mel killed Renly using Stannis seed without his leave or consent.

[theblackdragonI]

15 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Methinks by using the word killed means that someone is responsible for something, so saying that Stannis killed either Robert or Renly even by blood magic means that he is responsible for what happened. But the truth is that Mel killed Renly using Stannis seed without his leave or consent.

thats a tough call to make, we just don't know. It seems risky for Melisandre to kill Renly without his consent. And given that both shadows used looked like Stannis and that he remembers the actions during his dreams, he just as easily could have given his consent. Furthermore, the manner of both Renly and Courtnay Penrose's deaths, while he has a shadowbinder as his closest advisor is a pretty big give away.

On the other hand, he loved Renly despite his rebelliousness and Stannis doesn't strike me as a kinslayer. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, theblackdragonI said:

And given that both shadows used looked like Stannis and that he remembers the actions during his dreams, he just as easily could have given his consent.

She used his seed, hence its obvious why he would had felt something.

2 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Furthermore, the manner of both Renly and Courtnay Penrose's deaths, while he has a shadowbinder as his closest advisor is a pretty big give away.

I never said anything about Penrose's death only Renly's. Afterall there is no reason why he shouldn't killed Courtnay.

 

[theblackdragonI]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

She used his seed, hence its obvious why he would had felt something.

I never said anything about Penrose's death only Renly's. Afterall there is no reason why he shouldn't killed Courtnay.

 

She did, but do you not think he would have questioned Renly's death especially that both men were killed by shadows. If he ordered Penrose's death it stands to reason that he probably ordered Renly's death, and if he didn't he surely would have found out and been angry at Melisandre for killing his brother without his consent.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, theblackdragonI said:

She did, but do you not think he would have questioned Renly's death especially that both men were killed by shadows. If he ordered Penrose's death it stands to reason that he probably ordered Renly's death, and if he didn't he surely would have found out and been angry at Melisandre for killing his brother without his consent.

What I think that happened was that he learned or suspected how Renly died after it was done and he was unable to do something but after that he ordered her to kill Penrose. 

[theblackdragonI]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What I think that happened was that he learned or suspected how Renly died after it was done and he was unable to do something but after that he ordered her to kill Penrose. 

Yeah he might have just been forced to come to terms with it. Could have contributed to him leaning more toward Davos for advice later on.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, hitman47 said:

Stannis killed Robert with blood spell

Wut. Please elaborate.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Also wrong. Mel killed Renly using Stannis seed. We have no proof that Stannis knew what Mel was going to do.

Exactly. Despite all his faults and shortcomings, Stannis doesn't lie.

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV 

"Maester Cressen was your faithful servant. She slew him, as she killed Ser Cortnay Penrose and your brother Renly."

"Now you sound a fool," the king complained. "She saw Renly's end in the flames, yes, but she had no more part in it than I did. The priestess was with me. Your Devan would tell you so. Ask him, if you doubt me. She would have spared Renly if she could. It was Melisandre who urged me to meet with him, and give him one last chance to amend his treason. And it was Melisandre who told me to send for you when Ser Axell wished to give you to R'hllor." He smiled thinly. "Does that surprise you?" 

"Yes. She knows I am no friend to her or her red god."