Jeyne the schemer?

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, The Twinslayer said:

Chastity of highborn ladies in Westeros is a myth.  Here is a complete list of highborn ladies who are known to have slept only with their husbands:  Catelyn Tully.

Here is a partial list of highborn ladies who are known to have slept with men to whom they were neither betrothed nor married.

Lysa Tully, Cersei Lannister, Asha Greyjoy, Jeyne Westerling, Arianne Martell, Daena Targaryen, Melissa Blackwood, the three daughters of Lord Butterwell, Barbra Bracken, Barbry Ryswell, Danaerys Targaryen, Ami Frey, Delena Florent.

Here is a partial list of highborn ladies who are suspected of having slept with men to whom they were neither betrothed nor married. 

Naerys Targaryen, Margaery Tyrell, Ashara Dayne, Maege Mormont, Rhaenyra Targaryen, Johanna Lannister, Rhaenys Targaryen.   

There is also evidence that virginity at marriage was not that highly prized.  Walder Frey tried to arrange a marriage for Edmure through Hoster Tully, offering "young ones, old ones, virgins, widows, whatever he wanted."  Jon Arryn married Lysa knowing she had had a lover.  Lady Hornwood was a widow who had many suitors and Lady Rohanne and Princess Rhaenyra married multiple times.  Mace Tyrell agreed to marry a son to Cersei after Robert died. 

Absolutely right. I think grrm does this really well too. He really gives you the feel of image versus reality in a way that isn't forced or belabored, but comes across very clearly.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Chastity of highborn ladies in Westeros is a myth.  Here is a complete list of highborn ladies who are known to have slept only with their husbands:  Catelyn Tully.

That made me chuckle.

I agree, it’s quite clear that female chastity in ASOIAF more a myth than a reality, much like in the Middle Ages. People simply went along with the pretence unless it suited them not to, or it was so bloody obvious the pretence couldn’t be kept up.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

There is also evidence that virginity at marriage was not that highly prized.  Walder Frey tried to arrange a marriage for Edmure through Hoster Tully, offering "young ones, old ones, virgins, widows, whatever he wanted."  Jon Arryn married Lysa knowing she had had a lover.  Lady Hornwood was a widow who had many suitors and Lady Rohanne and Princess Rhaenyra married multiple times.  Mace Tyrell agreed to marry a son to Cersei after Robert died. 

Walder Frey appears to be speaking frivolously there: of course the virgin, all things being equal, would be more highly prized.

Lysa, we are reminded several times, was lucky to get a match as good as Jon Arryn since she'd been soiled by Littlefinger - and Jon Arryn was really in it for the Tully army.

We see the same thing coming up again and again: Lady Hornwood, Lady Rohanne, etc. Their holdings are enough for suitors to overlook their prior sexual activity. And those are widows: it's one thing to be a widow, another thing to be a soiled maiden. Technically it's a sin: fornication. Again, I refer you to the case of Gatehouse Ami: Merrett Frey and what's-her-face Darry's other daughter is good enough for Roose Bolton, and Ami herself is only married to Lancel Lannister later when Lancel's all fucked up, and even then it's only so the Lannisters can lay claim to Darry. But when there's no extra land in the mix to offset things, no extraneous circumstances, Ami's promiscuity means that this woman of very noble birth can only be married to a hedge knight.

1 hour ago, The Twinslayer said:

Chastity of highborn ladies in Westeros is a myth.  Here is a complete list of highborn ladies who are known to have slept only with their husbands:  Catelyn Tully.

You left out Sansa and Arya and Meera and probably a bunch more that I can't think of right now. (Also, there's a theory that Catelyn actually slept with Brandon, who is Robb's real father.)

I actually think GRRM has made things a little unrealistic here, although it's okay for dramatic purposes. IRL I doubt Christian noblewomen were quite so frisky. It's difficult for us to imagine in this day and age - especially for GRRM, with his gross 1970's sci-fi convention key parties, probably - but 1,000 years ago people used to take that shit very seriously.

At any rate, this is getting off-topic. The point is: either Jeyne was talked into banging Robb by her mother; or her mother could trust that she would do it on her own initiative, for one reason or another; either way, there are minor plot holes. (In fact it's so minor that "holes" is too strong a word.)

[Protagoras]

2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

1. Are you talking about Gatehouse Ami, the "slut" whose marriage value dropped precipitously because?

2. He'd bloody have to, look at a map: it was always a tall order for Robb to be able to defend the Riverlands, especially the parts south of the Trident. Defending the Crag is an impossibility. He can't possibly have expected for them to be able to retain it.

1. As has been pointed out by others, chastity is overrated. After all, you make the marriage with a family you want an alliance with so if I am a powerful lord and have a total slut for daugther (but only one, two or maybe maybe three daughters at most) it doesn´t matter if she is a known "horse-rider". She is still the person people need to marry if they want my favor (and my armies, and my trade, and...you get the picture) and that my daughter have had some "fun" with an unsuitable gentleman, that´s the kind of problems I expect to get sooner or later. Gatehouse Ami´s largest problem is not her "hobbies", it is that A. Her hobbies got exposed B. That she is a member in a family with many, many, many family-members and daughters who easily can take her place as well as C. That due to that many members, the lord doesn´t care about you personally. 

So if you are, say Bethany Blackwood, who is the lone daughter in a family who dotes you, you can have all the adult fun you want without any consequences as long as you take your moon tea and at least have some discretion (like not fucking openly on the road). If you are Gatehouse Ami, you might not have the same leeway, but your blood is still much, much important than your enjoyments - as shown when her Darry blood-connections was used to marry Lancel and become Lady Darry. 

2. Exactly my point. The Westerlings have very little to lose. They have the name but not much more and Jeyne would most likely be married to someone below her status due to the low value in a Westerling connection (she can´t even get a match with the sons of Ser Kevan!) and Lord Gaven most likely was forced to marry the relative of his sworn castellan (Can you see Bran marrying Jeyne Poole?). At worst, if Robb bail, Jeyne loses her maidenhead and will get married down - which was her likely destiny anyway. And if that great marriage offer somehow comes which Jeyne is to "sioled" for, then they have enough kids (including a spare daugther).

And, if Tywin is unwilling - why not become a Northern bannerman with large tracts of land and, i don´t know - a castle (or maybe two if Spicers get one and Westerlings one) that is not a ruin. Maybe even the former Hornwood property. Sybill might not be the nicest person, but she saw an opportunity and she took it, which gave her two very feasonable ways out which both improves her family. Because if Robb is marrying her, he is sort of forced to take responsibility and care for her noble, dispossesed family. 

I don´t like the woman, but from a realpolitical, practical standpoint her decision was 100% the correct one. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

4 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Sybill might not be the nicest person, but she saw an opportunity and she took it, which gave her two very feasonable ways out which both improves her family.

Hmm. Interesting perspective. I wonder if she seriously considered the Robb option? My feeling has always been that she got Tywin's permission before making any moves at all, and that she'd have been too scared of him to seriously consider betraying him. But that does present logistical problems...

[Protagoras]

3 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Hmm. Interesting perspective. I wonder if she seriously considered the Robb option? My feeling has always been that she got Tywin's permission before making any moves at all, and that she'd have been too scared of him to seriously consider betraying him. But that does present logistical problems...

I am certain that Tywin was her no 1 option - she might know the man personally, believed herself that making a deal was easy, knows the westerland culture, didn´t know what holdings her family might receive in the north and gets to keep the Westerling historical ties (Mandeleys might be an old house, but the time before the northern immgration has been diminished). 

But I am also pretty certain that living in the north was a viable option 2. How fun is it to live as paupers with a fancy name in Westerlands with a ruinous castle and little copper money that you constantly need to count? Don´t look further than Ser Osgrey here. Westerlings might not be there yet, but if they don´t do something soon, then someday they will be gone. They have sold their best lands and mines already if I don´t misremember myself. 

And about Rains of Castamere, there is a reason that song wasn´t about the Tarbecks who really, really needed Ellen Reyne to rebuild their lost fortunes. The Reynes however lost everything, and they had alot, on their folly. But a beggar attacking his betters and dies didn´t really have that many possessions to lose nor does really work to make a warning message about. And that´s the position the Westerlings are in. The Crag is after all already a ruin.

[The Twinslayer]

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Absolutely right. I think grrm does this really well too. He really gives you the feel of image versus reality in a way that isn't forced or belabored, but comes across very clearly.

 

28 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That made me chuckle.

I agree, it’s quite clear that female chastity in ASOIAF more a myth than a reality, much like in the Middle Ages. People simply went along with the pretence unless it suited them not to, or it was so bloody obvious the pretence couldn’t be kept up.

 

I agree.  And I think the pretense was pretty thin.  Tyrion tells Catelyn:  "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."  Setting aside that this isn't true (Catelyn being the one apparent exception), this is a minor lord boasting about having sex with the sister in law to the Hand and wife of the King's best friend.  And he's boasting about it to "every man at court."  If that was a scandalous thing to say, why does Littlefinger think he can get away with saying it to anyone who cares to listen? 

27 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Walder Frey appears to be speaking frivolously there: of course the virgin, all things being equal, would be more highly prized.

Lysa, we are reminded several times, was lucky to get a match as good as Jon Arryn since she'd been soiled by Littlefinger - and Jon Arryn was really in it for the Tully army.

We see the same thing coming up again and again: Lady Hornwood, Lady Rohanne, etc. Their holdings are enough for suitors to overlook their prior sexual activity. And those are widows: it's one thing to be a widow, another thing to be a soiled maiden. Technically it's a sin: fornication. Again, I refer you to the case of Gatehouse Ami: Merrett Frey and what's-her-face Darry's other daughter is good enough for Roose Bolton, and Ami herself is only married to Lancel Lannister later when Lancel's all fucked up, and even then it's only so the Lannisters can lay claim to Darry. But when there's no extra land in the mix to offset things, no extraneous circumstances, Ami's promiscuity means that this woman of very noble birth can only be married to a hedge knight.

You left out Sansa and Arya and Meera and probably a bunch more that I can't think of right now. (Also, there's a theory that Catelyn actually slept with Brandon, who is Robb's real father.)

I actually think GRRM has made things a little unrealistic here, although it's okay for dramatic purposes. IRL I doubt Christian noblewomen were quite so frisky. It's difficult for us to imagine in this day and age - especially for GRRM, with his gross 1970's sci-fi convention key parties, probably - but 1,000 years ago people used to take that shit very seriously.

At any rate, this is getting off-topic. The point is: either Jeyne was talked into banging Robb by her mother; or her mother could trust that she would do it on her own initiative, for one reason or another; either way, there are minor plot holes. (In fact it's so minor that "holes" is too strong a word.)

Sansa, Arya and Meera don't tell us anything.  Sansa was forcibly married to Tyrion before she had a chance to be with anyone else, and we don't know yet whether she will stray from her wedding vows.  Arya is too young, and we don't know one way or another what Meera may have done. 

I think the point about landed widows is partially valid -- part of the reason they could be desirable is because they bring an inheritance.  Another reason is that a young widow with children is known to be fertile.  That is why Jon Arryn was interested in Lysa.  He needed an heir.  But more importantly, he did not care that she had slept with another man out of wedlock. 

While I don't think chastity is important in Westeros, I do think that Westerosi noblemen had an interest in fidelity after marriage to ensure that another man's son does not inherit their land and titles.  King Viserys did not care that his daughter Rhaenyra might have bastard "Strong" children because those children would still be his grandchildren. But King Robert would certainly care if he knew he wasn't Joffrey's father because that would amount to a usurpation of his throne by another family.    

[aryagonnakill#2]

30 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

 

I agree.  And I think the pretense was pretty thin.  Tyrion tells Catelyn:  "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."  Setting aside that this isn't true (Catelyn being the one apparent exception), this is a minor lord boasting about having sex with the sister in law to the Hand and wife of the King's best friend.  And he's boasting about it to "every man at court."  If that was a scandalous thing to say, why does Littlefinger think he can get away with saying it to anyone who cares to listen? 

Sansa, Arya and Meera don't tell us anything.  Sansa was forcibly married to Tyrion before she had a chance to be with anyone else, and we don't know yet whether she will stray from her wedding vows.  Arya is too young, and we don't know one way or another what Meera may have done. 

I think the point about landed widows is partially valid -- part of the reason they could be desirable is because they bring an inheritance.  Another reason is that a young widow with children is known to be fertile.  That is why Jon Arryn was interested in Lysa.  He needed an heir.  But more importantly, he did not care that she had slept with another man out of wedlock. 

While I don't think chastity is important in Westeros, I do think that Westerosi noblemen had an interest in fidelity after marriage to ensure that another man's son does not inherit their land and titles.  King Viserys did not care that his daughter Rhaenyra might have bastard "Strong" children because those children would still be his grandchildren. But King Robert would certainly care if he knew he wasn't Joffrey's father because that would amount to a usurpation of his throne by another family.    

With regard to the bolded, LF told people that while Ned was thousands of miles away, before he was hand of the king, and he also appears to actually think it's true.  He believes that 1 of the times he slept with Lysa it was Catlyn.

[Seams]

8 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Chastity of highborn ladies in Westeros is a myth.  Here is a complete list of highborn ladies who are known to have slept only with their husbands:  Catelyn Tully.

Are you sure about Catelyn? She was betrothed to Brandon Stark, and Lady Dustin tells us that deflowering virgins was his favorite hobby.

ETA: Ah. I see that Illyrio Mo'Parties made this point already:

(Also, there's a theory that Catelyn actually slept with Brandon, who is Robb's real father.)

I think there's also a possibility that Littlefinger was not lying when he bragged about sleeping with Catelyn.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

9 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I agree.  And I think the pretense was pretty thin.  Tyrion tells Catelyn:  "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."  Setting aside that this isn't true (Catelyn being the one apparent exception), this is a minor lord boasting about having sex with the sister in law to the Hand and wife of the King's best friend.  And he's boasting about it to "every man at court."  If that was a scandalous thing to say, why does Littlefinger think he can get away with saying it to anyone who cares to listen? 

Well, Robert's court was decadent and depraved. Littlefinger wouldn't have gotten away with that had Stannis been king. Or maybe he would have: "every man at court" might not really be every man at court, and it's not like he's standing up in the throne room and announcing it to the world. He's just bragging over drinks, probably. It's a different scenario.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I think there's also a possibility that Littlefinger was not lying when he bragged about sleeping with Catelyn.

Crikey, imagine that. Still, I suppose once you allow that Catelyn's memory is unreliable because she's lying to herself, then I suppose it becomes possible. But I doubt this one: it would mean that Lysa is wrong about taking Littlefinger's maidenhead, and that's the occasion that he thinks it was Cat, and it cements his love for her. It makes sense that a twisted, selfish romantic like Littlefinger would feel like that about the loss of his virginity.