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The Twinslayer

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  1. The Twinslayer

    Is Jon older or younger than Robb?

    I assumed you had read the SSM, since you are relying on it. I'll come back on your other points later, but the SSM is important to the discussion of Jon's age, so I am quoting it in full below. Notice a few things. First, this is a statement GRRM is claimed to have made on July 11, 1999. It talks about things we will supposedly see in A Storm of Swords, which won't be published until August 2000. So Martin is in the middle of writing ASOS when he is asked this question and supposedly gives this answer. Second, the question is, when was Jon born. And the reason the questioner gives for asking the question is he thinks "Catelyn seems a little thick when she things that Ned fathered Jon as he returned 'Dawn' to Ashara Dayne." In other words, the questioner is asking GRRM to confirm that the timeline rules out Ned + Ashara as Jon's parents. Third, GRRM's answer is that he has a hard time keeping track of the timeline and that we should not assume that the chapters in the book happen chronologically (he distinguishes between "reader time" and "character time") and says that can be confusing. That appears to be in response to the questioner's assumption that we can figure out characters' relative ages by where people's namedays happen in different chapters -- GRRM is saying that won't work. Fourth, he says Jon is probably 8-9 months older than Dany. Fifth, he answers the point of the question: what is going on with Ashara Dayne. She "was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats." So he is implying that Ashara was on the move during the Rebellion and that she may have met up with Ned at the right time to conceive Jon, whatever day he was born. (Which of course is consistent with the fact that Catelyn was able to roam freely from Riverrun to Storm's End during the War of Five Kings). My bet is that Ashara was at Harrenhal at some point during the Rebellion when Ned's forces took the castle from the Whents and that Ned and Ashara interacted there (there is a theory that Barristan Selmy knows about this and believes that Ned dishonored her "at Harrenhal," just during the Rebellion rather than Lord Whent's tournament). Sixth, he goes on to offer "a tiny tidbit from SOS": Ashara "was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar. The rest I will save for the books." This is particularly interesting, because he is writing ASOS and he tells the questioner something that is going to happen that book. But then he publishes the book and that "tidbit" is nowhere to be found. And then he publishes the world book, and that tidbit is contradicted, because we are told that Elia lived on Dragonstone at that time. (We also get Barristan saying Ashara was "not long at court" in ADWD. We don't know if that is Aerys' court or Rhaegar's, but either way, a few years does not seem like "not long." More mystery). I think there is a very reasonable explanation for all of this. GRRM was drafting ASOS. He was filling in information about Robert's Rebellion and he was planning to give some clues about Jon's mother. As of July 1999, he was planning to give some heavy Ashara Dayne hints, and to tell us about her movements during the Rebellion. That meant he needed to give us more information about Jon's birth date so he could let us know that Ned and Ashara met up nine months prior. So he fixed a date -- around the time of the Sack -- and he wrote up the Ned/Ashara meeting. But then he ran into problems ("I will confess, the chronology of these books sometimes gives me fits") because he had Catelyn saying she married after the battle of the bells and Jaime telling us the battle of the bells was shortly before the Sack. So he went in a different direction. Instead of giving us Ned and Ashara at Harrenhal 9 months before the Sack and then Jon being born 9 months later, we get Ned Dayne talking to Arya about Wylla, Ashara, and his un-named Aunt. Also, if R+L=J is correct, he may have realized that placing Jon's birth so close in time to the Sack just does not work. It is kind of ridiculous to think that Jon could have been born two weeks before the Sack, that Lyanna died from complications from childbirth, and that Ned was able to do everything we know that he did before reaching the toj in time to see Lyanna die. It is much more likely that he took a few months (at least) to reach her after the Sack. All of this leads me to conclude that placing Jon's birth around the time of the Sack went out the window with the rest of the Ashara Dayne information. GRRM may later decide that that is when Jon was born, but for now I don't think we can rely on that SSM to tell us when Jon was born. "JULY 11, 1999 CHRONOLOGY I'm trying to figure out how Jon's day of birth fits in the timeline of the war, and assumed you wouldn't just tell me when he was exactly born.:-) In his first chapter at the Wall, Jon reflects that his name day passed a fortnight before. I assume this was his 15th one. Dany's 14th name day was at the end of her chapter, on the far side of the Dothraki sea. Now, if this was after Jon's chapter -- and (apparent) name day, it could be concluded, that Jon was born more than 1 year before Dany, and at least 3 months before Queen Rhaella left King's Landing. I will spare you the rest of my speculations about the date of Jon's birth, since their only real conclusion is that Catelyn seems a little thick when she thinks that Ned fathered Jon as he returned 'Dawn' to Ashara Dayne. Ah... I see what you're driving at here, I guess... I will confess, the chronology of these books sometimes gives me fits. You would not believe how often I reshuffle the chapters, trying to find the one true perfect sequence. And then just when I have it exactly right, my editors weigh in from both sides of the Atlantic, each suggesting a slightly different chapter order. It is always a balancing act, since I want the chapters to have a certain dramatic flow, I worry about certain storylines being forgotten if they are "off stage" too long, and there is a constant tug of war between character time and reader time (a character may have two chapters, taking place one day apart, but if two hundred pages of stuff about other characters separate those two chapters, the reader is going to perceive a long time as having passed, even if I begin the second chapter with, "When he woke up the very next morning..." All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts. I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes. Not to mention the colors of everybody's eyes. As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar. The rest I will save for the books."
  2. The Twinslayer

    Is Jon older or younger than Robb?

    The siege of Storm's End wasn't one of the battles Ned fought after the Sack, because we are told that Tyrell and Redwine surrendered without a fight. So we need to include at least one other battle. But the impression Ned gives is that there were several battles, not just two. The whole point of the SSM on which you base the belief that Jon is 8 or 9 months older than Dany is not to pinpoint Jon's birthdate. If you go back and read it again, GRRM was responding to a reader who suggested that Cat was naive to believe that Ashara was Jon's mother because if Ned impregnated her during the Harrenhal tournament, Jon would be much older than Robb. GRRM's very long-winded response was intended to refute that suggestion by demonstrating that the true timeline shows that Ned and Ashara could be Jon's parents. Also, I think you are misreading what Catelyn said about going to Winterfell after the Rebellion. You are relying on this quote from Cat: "When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence." That does not say she went to Winterfell as soon as the war was over. It just tells us that by the time she arrived at Winterfell, the "wars were over." That implies that Stannis had already taken Dragonstone at that point, because the wars were not over until the last Targaryens had fled Westeros. That also makes sense if Ned was engaged in a long mopping up action in the South, which is what is implied when he says he left King's Landing to fight multiple battles. If you want a sense of how long that took, consider how long it took Jaime to bring the Riverlands to heel after Robb Stark died, and how long it took to get Wyman Manderly to bend the knee. I don't think Ned and Catelyn arrived at Winterfell until Robb was several months older than you think -- perhaps more than a year old, or even older. Regarding your questions about Aegon, the simple answer is that we don't have enough information yet to know the motives of Illyrio and Varys. It is not GRRM's style to give us enough information to solve some mysteries -- he often gives insufficient information in one book before providing the needed information later. For example, in AGOT, Arya witnesses a discussion between two people who appear to be Illyrio and Varys plotting about whatever their plan is. If their plan is to seat a Blackfyre descendant on the Iron Throne, there is no way you could figure that out from the information available as of AGOT, because there is no mention of the Blackfyres in AGOT. GRRM probably had not even thought up the Blackfyres at that point, because the appendix to AGOT mentions the Dance of the Dragons but has no mention of the Blackfyre rebellions. So the simple answer is that we can speculate on the Varys/Illyrio motives and on what the Gold Company is up to, but I don't think there is enough information for us to be confident about that. Consider a related issue: Ashara Dayne. She is obviously important to Jon's story. The R+L=J theory provides no convincing explanation for what her importance is. All we know is this. Ned and Ashara had contact during the Harrenhal tournament, and there are rumors of an affair between the two of them taking place there. If the SSM is to be believed, Ned and Ashara met up during the rebellion around 9 months before Jon was born. Ned appears to have picked up Jon in Dorne toward the end of the rebellion, around the time he visited Starfall. Ashara is rumored to have killed herself around that time, but the body was never found. Ashara had purple eyes and her hair was dark (brown? black? blond?). Barristan Selmy loved her and makes some ambiguous comments about her being dishonored and having a stillborn daughter. She had a brother named Arthur (killed by Ned and Howland), a sister named Allyria, and a nephew named Ned who is now Lord of Starfall. And there is conflicting information about where she lived and what her relationship to Elia was. That is a lot of build up if we are going to learn that she is just a pretty lady who coincidentally crossed Ned Stark's path a few times before killing herself. Much more likely is that she disappeared after Ned arrived at Starfall with Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby because she took that baby into hiding. Lastly, I don't know why Ned never thinks of Ashara in the limited time we have his POV, especially since she is widely believed to be (and may very well be) the mother of his bastard. Then again, I don't know why he never thinks about his mother or father. You would think that he would think of them when he was languishing in the Black Cells, but if he did, we don't know about it because GRRM chose not to show it to us.
  3. The Twinslayer

    Is Jon older or younger than Robb?

    I don't really understand what you mean by "R+L=J denial." R+L=J is a lot more likely if Jon was born several months after the Sack than it would be if he was born somewhere between two weeks before to two weeks after the Sack. This is because we know that Ned did all of the following after the Sack but before finding Lyanna in her bed of blood. First, Ned waited for Robert to arrive from the Trident. Remember, Robert took a wound from Rhaegar at the Trident, and Robert had his own maester tend to Barristan Selmy after the battle, so Ned went ahead with the rebel vanguard and arrived in King's Landing at the same time as the Lannisters. Robert arrived some days later. Then, Ned watched Tywin present Rhaegar's dead children to Robert, after which he left King's Landing in a cold rage to fight the last battles of the war alone. We don't know who or where he fought those battles, only that there were battles, plural. In addition to those battles, he lifted the siege of Storm's End and took loyalty oaths from Lords Tyrell and Redwine and all their knights. Then he somehow figured out where Lyanna was and took a small group of close friends to Dorne, where he encountered the Kingsguard knights at the tower of joy. What happened next was probably one of the "last battles." In fact, it was probably the final battle, since only he and Howland Reed survived (so it is unlikely he and Howland then went and fought more battles). Then, Ned was there in time to watch Lyanna die. If Jon is 9 months older than Dany, then under your theory that Lyanna died a week or so after Jon's birth, that would mean that Lyanna died before the Sack of King's Landing. If Jon is 8 months older than Dany, then under your theory, Lyanna died at most three weeks after the Sack. Neither of those possibilities is possible. My theory -- that Jon may have been born at the toj several months after the Sack -- is much more likely. Also, consider that ASOS is where we learn a lot about the events around the Sack from Jaime. When he was writing that book, GRRM was obviously putting some thought into his timeline. I suspect what happened is that when he (supposedly) made the statement about 8 to 9 months, he had a draft chapter showing a Ned/Ashara meeting 8 to 9 months before the Sack, but he took that out because it conflicted with what he was trying to do with Jaime's story. Meaning that the final product does not have Jon being born 8 to 9 months before Dany -- that was from a draft that was discarded. On your other points, I agree that Lyanna likely died from complications of childbirth. It was pretty obvious that GRRM was setting that up from the beginning -- we first hear of Rhaegar and Lyanna when Dany tells us Rhaegar died on the Trident fighting for the woman he loved; later, Robert tells us that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and that he (Robert) avenged her on the Trident. And we are also told that Rhaegar already had two children. Whether Dany or Robert is right about the nature of the relationship, GRRM was clearly suggesting the possibility of a pregnancy. That said, there is a tendency on this board to get carried away with R+L=J "clues" that are nothing of the sort. For example, there is no reference in the books to a "King" hiding in the North under "Snow." There is a passage where Robert jokes that the Northern small folk are hiding from the king under snow. If that is a reference to Jon, it implies that he does not have royal heritage. Similarly with Ned calling Jon "my blood." Later, Lord Mormont tells Jon that Robb will marry a princess and birth sons with her, while Jon will never hold a child of his own blood. So Jon knows that he will see and probably hold his nephews but that he will never hold a child that is his blood. Thus, when Ned said Jon is "my blood" it means "Jon is my son." To your second point, if we assume Lyanna died from childbirth, the question is where is the child (or children)? On possibility is Jon. Another is that the child did not live. A third is that the child is Young Griff/Aegon. I am partial to the theory that Aegon's parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar and that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne. In that scenario, Jon could be Aegon's twin brother or he could be Ned and Ashara's son. Either way, the Aegon had to be hidden, and possibly Jon as well. Ashara, with her purple eyes, took the child with purple eyes, and Ned took the one that looked like a Stark. And it would be fitting if we find out that Ashara, like Gilly, left her own child to look after the royal (bastard?) baby. I don't think it is possible that the Battle of the Bells took place in the first three months of the war. So either Catelyn is mistaken about when the Battle of the Bells occurred, or her marriage to Ned took place shortly before the Battle of the Trident. She may very well be mistaken -- she thinks her and Lysa's marriage were the price for Hoster Tully joining the Rebellion, but we also know that Hoster fought with Ned at the Battle of the Bells. It would be pretty strange if Hoster had fought in a major battle like that but then said he had not yet decided whether to join the rebels. Either way, the Battle of the Bells took place shortly before the Trident. We know this because Jaime tells us what happened immediately after that battle: Lewyn Martell was sent to meet Dornish troops who were already marching up the Boneway; Rhaegar returned from the south; and Barristan Selmy and Jon Darry went to Stony Sept to gather the remains of the defeated royal army. Jaime tells us all of those things happened at the same time, and they must have happened right after the Battle of the Bells because defeated/leaderless armies don't just wait around the battlefield, they go home. And if Catelyn really did get married after the Battle of the Bells and that is what caused Hoster Tully to call his banners, that is more proof it happened right before the Trident. Because Hoster called up Lord Frey right before the Trident, and the Late Lord Frey arrived right after the battle ended. It was at least plausible that Lord Frey had taken that long to get organized if he was called a week or two before the Trident, but if he was called three months into the war and showed up six months later claiming that is how long it took to muster his men, that would have been ridiculous. We also know that the Battle of the Bells didn't happen three months into the war because all of the following happened prior to that Battle: Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard, and called for Ned's and Robert's heads; Battle of Gulltown; Ned makes his way, partly on foot, to Winterfell from the Vale; Ned calls his banners (which takes Robb two weeks in AGOT); Ned marches his forces down to the South; Robert escapes to Storm's End and fights three battles at Summerhall; Robert goes back to Storm's End and feasts his defeated Lords over a period of time; Robert is defeated in battle by Randall Tarly; Robert finds his way to Stony Sept; and meanwhile, Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully join forces and make their way to Stony Sept. There is no way all of that took place within the space of three months. All of this ties together well: the most likely scenario is that the Battle of the Bells, Ned's wedding, and the conception of both Jon and Robb took place late in the war, shortly before the Battle of the Trident. The year that Ned and Catelyn were apart after their wedding started a little before the Trident and ended when Ned met back up with Catelyn a year later, either at Riverrun or Winterfell. During the intervening period, King's Landing was sacked, Robert became king, and Ned was tasked with a mopping up operation in the South. And don't forget that the Rebellion did not end for 9 months or so after the Sack, because we know that Dany was already born when Stannis took Dragonstone and finished the war. I think your final point is Jon and Robb must be close in age or Catelyn would have noticed they were at different developmental stages. Whether that idea even occurred to GRRM or not, in the real world, two sixth-month old children (even twins) can be at very different stages. Some children crawl at 6 months and some reach 10+ months without crawling. Which leads me back to where I started: we don't know whether Jon or Robb is older. I'll just add that their relative ages tell us nothing about R+L=J, but R+L=J is a lot more likely if Jon was born a few months after the Sack than it is if he was born two weeks to two weeks after.
  4. The Twinslayer

    Is Jon older or younger than Robb?

    I stand corrected. Thank you. I don't think that changes my overall conclusion, which is that we don't know who is older. We don't know that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany. That comes from an SSM (that may or may not accurately quote GRRM) from shortly before the publication of ASOS in which the questioner suggested that Cat had to be naive to believe that Jon could be the child of Ned and Ashara because of timeline related problems. GRRM's response was a long explanation of why it was possible that Ned and Ashara met up 9 months prior to Jon's birth. It included information that supposedly would be published in ASOS but which was scrapped before the book came out (for example, it said we would learn that Ashara was a companion to Elia in King's Landing in the early years of her marriage) and then later contradicted (the world book says Elia lived on Dragonstone in the early years of her marriage). Given GRRM's tendency to write something up to see how it reads and then changing things around later, it sounds like the suggestion that Jon was 8-9 months older than Dany came from a draft chapter of ASOS that was going to describe a meeting between Ned and Ashara that happened around 9 months before the Sack but that GRRM changed his mind and left it out of the book. That is all a long way of saying that I don't think that this information about the time of Jon's birth is reliable. It may be accurate or it may not. I agree that Lyanna had a child. We don't know whether it lived. If it did, it could be Jon. It could also be Aegon. If Septa Lemore is Ashara, then that would explain why she gave up her child (Jon) so she could whisk the royal bastard off to safety far away. Rather like Gilly does with Mance's baby. Thank you! I think Cat's thoughts about when Robb was born are a little ambiguous. She says that Robb was born while Ned was warring in the South. For Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully, that war ended with the Sack of King's Landing, when Aerys died. But after that, "Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south." We don't know what those battles were or how long it took him to fight them, but it could have been as little as a few weeks or as long as several months.
  5. The Twinslayer

    Is Jon older or younger than Robb?

    The short answer is that we don't know who is older because we don't know when either child was born with any certainty. The first big variable is when Robb was born. Catelyn thinks that she married Ned after the Battle of the Bells and that Robb was conceived within two weeks of her wedding. Jaime thinks the Battle of the Bells happened a few weeks before the Trident. If that is all correct, then Robb was born 7+ months after the Sack of King's Landing. Catelyn may, however, be mistaken. She believes Jon Arryn married Lysa after losing two heirs: his nephew (who died with Brandon Stark) and his cousin (killed at the Battle of the Bells). If Jon Arryn married Lysa after the first heir died, right at the beginning of the rebellion, then Robb may have been born before the Sack of King's Landing. Note that I am not suggesting that Catelyn mis-remembers when she was married, just that she may mis-remember which death caused Jon Arryn to seek a new wife known to be fertile. As for Jon, all we know for sure is that Catelyn learned that Ned had fathered a bastard within the first year of her marriage and that Jon was present in Winterfell when she arrived there after the rebellion. Catelyn also implies that Jon's birth took place some time after her wedding. As far as their relative ages go, it is suggested that Jon and Robb are "of an age," whatever that means. And Jon is 15 during the feast at Winterfell for Robert and Robb is 15 when Ned dies some months later. All of this suggests that the age difference between the two of them is probably less than a year. The earliest date for Jon's birth (assuming Catelyn's suggestion that he was born after the Ned/Cat marriage) would have Jon being about 8-9 months older than Robb. The latest date for Jon's birth would be about 3 months after Robb's (since Robb was born 9 months after the Ned/Cat wedding and Cat learned of Jon's birth less than a year after marrying Ned). Let me offer two additional thoughts. If you subscribe to the R+L=J theory and believe that Jon was born at the toj some time after the Sack of King's Landing, then you can narrow the possible age difference somewhat but you still have the problem of not knowing whether the Ned/Cat marriage took place toward the beginning or toward the end of the rebellion. You also have the problem that, if Ned and Catelyn were married at the beginning of the rebellion, and Ned discovered Jon only at the end of the rebellion, how did Catelyn learn about Jon within the first year of her marriage? It is hard to imagine that someone sent a raven with that news. The second is that there is an old SSM from 1999, while GRRM was writing ASOS, that says that Jon is around 8-9 months older than Dany. That would put Jon's birth anywhere from about 2 weeks before the Sack of King's Landing to two weeks after the Sack (since we know Dany was conceived about two weeks prior to the Sack). The problem with that SSM (if we assume it is an accurate report of something GRRM said) is that GRRM changed his mind about several things that were included in it that related to interaction bewteen Ned and Ashara. The point of the SSM was to suggest that Ned and Ashara may have had a liason 9 months before Jon was born. But he changed his mind about including that in ASOS (and about some other things in that SSM) so I don't think that reference to the timing of Jon's birth can be considered reliable. Even if it is reliable, it does not help determine whether Robb or Jon is older because Robb may have been born before the Sack or as much as 7+ months later.
  6. The Twinslayer

    Dunk is not true knight. How does it affect story?

    I agree that knighthood is part of the Faith of the Seven. But remember that Robb’s mother follows the 7 and that there is a sept in Winterfell. Robb could have stood vigil there or in the sept at Riverrun. Or he could have been knighted without standing vigil. Jaime Lannister was knighted on the battlefield by Ser Arthur Dayne. (Wouldn’t it be funny if Dayne was knighted by Selmy, meaning that neither Dayne nor Jaime is really a knight)? If Robb is a knight my guess would be that the Blackfish did it for him on the battlefield after Whispering Wood. That fits with Catelyn’s thought that he was transformed from the boy she knew into a young knight at Whispering Wood.
  7. The Twinslayer

    Dunk is not true knight. How does it affect story?

    Robb might be a knight. Remember that Bran’s great ambition was to be a knight, and Ned appears to have encouraged that. Also, here is Catelyn’s description of Robb preparing for battle: ”Olyvar Frey held his horse for him...He strapped Robb’s shield in place and handed up his helm. When he lowered it over the face she loved so well, a tall young knight sat on his grey stallion where her son had been.”
  8. The Twinslayer

    Dunk is not true knight. How does it affect story?

    The quote comes from Catelyn: "Lord Frey's son Olyvar will be coming with us," she went on. "He is to serve as your personal squire. His father would like to see him knighted, in good time." I don't think that means that Walder expects Robb personally to dub Olyvar. I took it to mean that Walder wants to make sure that even though Olyvar is going to squire for someone who is not a knight (Robb), he wants to be sure that Robb will get someone to knight Olyvar when the time comes.
  9. The Twinslayer

    Dunk is not true knight. How does it affect story?

    I would not put much stock in the wiki entry. It is based on a report from the July 2006 comic con that has parts stricken out on the SSM page because the person who paraphrased what GRRM supposedly said later apparently came forward to say that in one portion of his report he was giving his opinion rather than George’s.
  10. The Twinslayer

    Dunk is not true knight. How does it affect story?

    We know that any knight can make a knight. We don’t know that a king who has never been knighted can make a knight. But there are some clues: • When Dany wants Arstan Whitebeard knighted, she tells Ser Jorah to do it. She does not simply proclaim him to be a knight. This is in contrast to making someone a lord, in which case he gets a royal decree signed by the king. • Prince Rhaegar initially did not intend to become a knight. He later changed his mind and said “I must be a knight” (it is hinted that he read a prophecy stating that the Prince That Was Promised must be a knight). If a king is automatically a knight, then Rhaegar would not need to be knighted. That would happen automatically when his father died. • The power to make a knight comes from the Faith. We know this, for example, because followers of the Old Gods can’t be knights. But the Crown does not have the authority to act for the Faith. The Crown can influence the Faith but it can’t directly usurp the Faith’s powers (for example, the king can’t directly appoint a High Septon any more than he can choose the Grand Maester or the LC of the Watch). So there is no reason to think the king can make a knight just because he is king. He would have that power only if he is also a knight. Incidentally, if Rhaegar was chasing prophecies and thought he needed to be a knight to fulfill one, it would be interesting if we found out that he was knighted by Barristan and that Rhaegar also was, therefore, not a knight.
  11. The Twinslayer

    Dunk is not true knight. How does it affect story?

    If Dunk is not a knight then Barristan Selmy is probably telling the truth when he tells Dany he is a squire. Usually a squire is knighted by the knight for whom he squires. That means Egg was likely knighted by Dunk. So Egg is not a knight. Egg knighted Barristan Selmy at a tourney after Barristan unseated Dunk. So Barristan is not a knight, either.
  12. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.165

    I don’t see any indication that Rhaegar was interested in Ashara. I have wondered whether he had an affair with Cersei based on her thoughts about him and the long history of Targaryens taking mistresses. We know from her meeting with Maggy the Frog that Cersei believed when she was young that she would one day marry Rhaegar (after he became king). And later she thinks that as between Robert and Rhaegar, the wrong man came back from the Trident. She clearly had a thing for Rhaegar. And it is likely she acted on those feelings. She is never shy about bedding men outside of marriage. And she may have thought Rhaegar would put Elia aside for her — she talks about the fact that a wife can be put aside in one of her first appearances in AGOT. So whether it would have been possible for Rhaegar to do that or not, Cersei seems to have believed that he could — once he was king. So how likely is it that Rhaegar turned her down? Most people think he was unfaithful to Elia, so that is not a stretch. And his family history strongly suggests he was brought up to believe that having a highborn (or lowborn) mistress was normal for a man in his position. Targaryen bastards were so common they even had a name for them — dragonseeds. And Cersei is considered to be very beautiful. If the Prince of Dragonstone was going to follow his family history of taking a mistress, why not a beautiful one? Finally, there is one more subtle clue: the comparison between Jaime and Tyrion where it is said that the difference between them is that Jaime doesn’t bed whores. (Instead, he beds Cersei). Well, who else does not frequent brothels? Rhaegar — at least that is what Ned Stark thinks. So this could be a clue — the two men with a reputation for not going to brothels (Rhaegar and Jaime) are two men who were sleeping with Cersei. Lyanna almost certainly was a hostage when she died. The kings guard at the toj had a duty to deliver her to Aerys after Rhaegar died (and to Viserys after Aerys died). If they could get her to Dragonstone it is unlikely Robert or Ned would have allowed an assault on the island as long as she was held there. There is even a nice parallel in AGOT when Trant (a kings guard) is sent to take Arya hostage. Other female hostages included Sansa (betrothed to Joffrey but a hostage nonetheless), Myrcella (betrothed to Trystane but also a hostage), and Elia (married to the crown prince but still used as a hostage by Aerys). The three kings guard at the toj would have seen Lyanna’s value as a hostage and they would have been duty bound to treat her as such.
  13. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.165

    Welcome to the forums. The alternative explanation (if we assume the raven is being controlled by someone else) is that this is a reference to Jon having a claim to be King in the North, as a legitimized bastard son of Ned Stark and the designated heir of Robb Stark.
  14. The Twinslayer

    Kingsguard oath: How many times and which parts of oath did Jaime break?

    Nice to see that old thread again. To answer the OP, Jaime's entire purpose in entering the KG was to break the KG vow because he joined for the purpose of sleeping with Cersei. According to Barristan Selmy, one thing the KGs swear is chastity. That does not appear to be just an oath not to take a wife or to father children, but rather an oath to take no lover. Jaime's purpose in joining the KG was to give him access to Cersei, so he took the oath in order to break it. It is safe to assume that if he saw Cersei at any point after joining the KG and before killing Aerys, he would have slept with her (assuming she agreed). We know that he slept with Cersei the morning of her wedding to Robert and then continued to do so throughout Robert's reign. It seems that he did not see Cersei during the course of Joffrey's reign but he was with her again during Tommen's. So he has been breaking the oath constantly for 17+ years. Apart from the vow of celibacy, he seems to have broken virtually all the rest as well: 1. Protect the king from harm or threat: he killed Aerys, and he may have been in on Cersei's plan to kill Robert. 2. Provide the same KG protection to royals, lovers, mistresses and bastards (but only if so directed): he failed to protect Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon from the Mountain when they were under his care, and he failed to protect Rhaella from Aerys. 3. Follow orders from the king, other royals, the Hand and the Small Council. Aerys ordered him to kill Tywin and Jaime refused the order. Jaime also ordered the other KGs to refuse orders from Tommen under certain circumstances. 4. Serve the king's pleasure. Jaime abandoned his post after attacking Ned and instead of serving Robert, rode off to raise an army. It is not clear whether he did this to support the Mountain's attack on the Riverlands, to protect Cersei in the event Robert learned of the incest, or if he did it to mobilize the Lannister forces in anticipation of Cersei's attempt on Robert's life, but whatever his reason, he wasn't serving Robert's pleasure. 5. Keep the king's secrets. After Joffrey became king, he told Catelyn that Joffrey was not Robert's son. And I think he told Tyrion about the wildfire plot so that the Lannister's would have a secret stash of wildfire in KL if they ever needed it. It came in very handy during the Battle of the Blackwater. And he told Brienne about the wildfire plot. 6. Protect the King's name and honor. Sleeping with the king's wife clearly violates that vow. 7. Maintain chastity. Same as above. Some of Jaime's decisions are understandable under the circumstances (for example, it is understandable that a KG would disobey an order to kill his own father, since kinslaying may be a worse sin than oathbreaking), but that does not change the fact that Jaime never had any intention of keeping his KG vows even before he took them.
  15. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.164

    The discussion between Little Walder and Big Walder is interesting for a few reasons, not the least of which is that it's a discussion of proximity v precedence. Little Walder starts by assuming that proximity controls, and Big Walder makes the case for precedence. I'm not sure how reliable Big Walder is, though, because he seems to think that Jinglebell and all his (Jinglebell's) sons are high on the list. And that seems very unlikely. Also, Catelyn's thoughts on Ryman are not all that clear. She does not say that Ryman is heir by dint of being Stevron's firstborn son. She just says that with Stevron dead, Ryman is now the heir. She does not say that that happened automatically. Which is interesting because in AGOT, Lord Walder asserts that he has the right to simply choose his heir. He has to know that with a family as large as his, and with children from so many different wives, he has created a recipe for a Frey family civil war. And with his advanced age, it is likely he will outlive some of his sons. So it makes sense that he would lay down some clear rules, in the same way Henry VIII tried to do in real-world history. So if House Frey is going to follow strict male-preference primogeniture when Walder dies, then that may just be because that is how Lord Walder has set it up in his own unique circumstances. And that is not enough to persuade me that Aerys had to alter the line of succession in House Targaryen in order for Viserys to be his heir.
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