Jump to content

The Twinslayer

Members
  • Content count

    988
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About The Twinslayer

  • Rank
    Council Member

Recent Profile Visitors

1,238 profile views
  1. The Twinslayer

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    Of course, R+L = J may very well be correct. Clearly, one of the big mysteries from Game of Thrones is, where is Lyanna's child. Jon Snow is one possible candidate. Young Griff is another. We won't know the real answer until GRRM reveals it in the books. If he ever publishes another ASOIAF book.
  2. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.165

    Thank you, Ran. That is useful information. The fact that you personally know the people who made these reports, and you are willing to say so here, satisfies me that GRRM probably said something along these lines. As I said a little earlier on this thread, it is good to know that Ran has done some sleuthing on some of the SSMs. But that does not really solve the problem the SSMs present. When I read them, in most cases, I don't get any indication of who submitted them. You indicated that one of these reports came from someone calling him or herself "Aegon." But there is no way to tell that from the SSM: I have to (and am willing to) take your word for it. And I have to (and am willing to) take your word for it that you think "Aegon" is a reliable reporter. But if I just read through the SSMs without your assistance, for most of them I can't even see the avatar-name the reporter has given him or herself, much less know who the person behind the name is. And there is no way you could go through the hundreds of SSMs to tell us which reporters you find credible and which you don't. Even where we conclude that an SSM is an accurate report of what GRRM said, there are still problems with drawing conclusions from the SSM. Has GRRM given a lot of thought to the question before, or is he just trying to please a fan by having a ready answer (especially during the early days)? Did GRRM say this at one time and then change his mind? Is it possible that GRRM might change his mind about this some time in the future? My point is just that the SSMs should be taken with a grain of salt. At best, they reflect whatever GRRM was thinking about at the time, which may be subject to change (e.g., the five-year gap). At worst, they could reflect fans attributing to GRRM things he never said (either deliberately or by accident).
  3. The Twinslayer

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    Ah, now I understand. You have me confused with someone else. I have never suggested that Ashara was "nailed to the floor" in Starfall during the entirety of the rebellion. In fact, my entire theory that Ned and Ashara may be Jon's parents depends on Ashara being somewhere other than Starfall at the key moment when Jon was conceived. I assume that was an honest mistake on your part, so I take no offense. To elaborate a little, since Clash of Kings, when we saw Catelyn roaming from Winterfell to King's Landing (in Game), from Riverrun to the Stormlands (in the middle of the War of Five Kings, no less) and back to Riverrun with only a small escort, I have thought it possible that Ashara did something similar during Robet's Rebellion. That is why I have always thought it possible that Ned and Ashara met up during the Rebellion and that the result of that meeting was Jon Snow. I have also always thought it likely that Ashara stayed at Harrenhal after Lord Whent's tourney and that she was caught there when winter returned after the False Spring. Alternatively, I have suggested in the past that, like Catelyn during the War of Five Kings, Ashara may have served as something of a diplomat, taking a message to the rebels, either from Aerys or Rhaegar. Either way, Harrenhal would be a logical place for the Ned-Ashara tryst that resulted in Jon Snow, since Ned would likely have spent time at Harrenhal during the Rebellion, including on his way to Riverrun after the Battle of the Bells, or on his way back to his "warring in the South" immediately following his wedding to Catelyn. I took Barristan's musings in Dance -- that Ashara had been dishonored at Harrenhal -- as possible confirmation of my theory that Jon may have been conceived during a Ned-Ashara tryst at Harrenhal, during the Rebellion. So, my friend, since your objection to my theory was your belief that I was suggesting that Ashara never left Starfall during the Rebellion, I think we can put that objection to rest. I'll go a little further for the sake of clarity. My other critique of the 1999 e-mail is as follows. First, assuming it is an accurate account of something GRRM said, and assuming he took time to think about the question, we need to interpret it within its context. He made the statement in 1999, shortly before he published Storm. He was asked, in essence, whether the timeline ruled out Ashara as a possible mother for Jon. His response was, in essence, that Ashara moved around a lot and could have met Ned at the right time to be Jon's mother. So far, so good. He then went further and said that, in Storm, we would read about how Ashara was a companion to Elia in King's Landing in the first few years of Rhaegar's marriage. We now know that that statement really isn't accurate. We also know that, once Storm was published, we got a lot of information about Robert's Rebellion, including new information about the timing of Ned's marriage to Catelyn and about Robb's birth. But we did not get the promised information about Ashara's movements. Instead, we got the Arya chapter that featured Ned Dayne. My theory is that when he wrote the 1999 email, GRRM had a draft chapter that described Ashara's movements and that pinpointed Jon's birthdate in a way that confirmed that Ned and Ashara met up 9 months before Jon was born. (That would not mean that Ashara is definitely Jon's mother; just that GRRM planned to lay out a scenario confirming that was possible). But he ran into problems because that timeline didn't work with the timeline Jaime was laying out for the Battle of the Bells and other information about the timing of the Ned/Cat marriage that ultimately did make it into Storm. I believe that GRRM's solution was to ditch the Ashara chapter, and with it, he ditched the decision to fix a date for Jon's birth around the time of the Sack. That does not mean that Jon was not born around the time of the Sack. It just means that any theory built around the 1999 e-mail is built on an assumption that is, as likely as not, untrue. And, I take the fact that we now know that Ashara was a companion to Elia on Dragonstone rather than at King's Landing as further support for the idea that GRRM abandoned the ideas he was exploring when he (supposedly) wrote the 1999 email. I see no reason to think that he the only change in GRRM's thinking is the one that presents a direct contradiction between the 1999 e-mail and a later book. I appreciate the fact that reasonable people can disagree about this, and that my reading of this may not be entirely correct. But I also think there is a very strong probability that I am right about this. And the fact that you or another poster may disagree with this logic does not mean I should abandon it. It just means that you disagree with it, which is the whole purpose of a discussion board like this. Anyway, hopefully that will clear up your confusion and, going forward, the discussion can focus on the ideas we are discussing rather than attributing someone else's views to me.
  4. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.165

    Thanks for providing the quotes. I don't remember seeing them before. They do point to an interesting aspect of the SSMs. These are quotes from two fans who say they heard GRRM answer a question verbally in 2005. We don't know for sure that the reports are accurate (and the two reports differ a little in the details). For all we know, this SSM, and many others, may just have been made up but the fans who reported them. And even if the thrust of the quote is accurate, we also don't know whether this was GRRM saying something off-the-cuff because he did not want to offend a fan by not answering. Nor do we know if he had given any real thought to it before giving an answer. On this issue, it seems like if it was important, he would have put it in one of the books. But let's assume that this is something GRRM thought about a lot but decided to reveal only if and when a curious fan asked the right question. As you point out, it sounds like the question was when Robert "proclaimed" his intention to take the throne. I have always thought that, before Jon Arryn called his banners, and before Ned left for Winterfell to call his banners, Arryn, Baratheon and Stark agreed on what the ultimate outcome should be: Robert as King. I have also thought -- based in part on the Jaime quotes you provided later reinforced by the Godric quote -- that it was widely known or expected that the rebels intended to put Robert on the throne. So even if we assume that this SSM is an accurate account of GRRM's well thought-out decision, it does not mean that Robert had not decided to take the throne at the outset of the Rebellion. It does not even mean that he had not shared that with the Houses he asked to join his cause (like House Tully). It just means that he did not proclaim his intentions for all the world to see. Finally, if the second reporter is right and GRRM suggested that Robert decided to proclaim himself King some time after the Battle of the Trident, that has interesting implications for Ned's activities. I have always though that Ned left the Trident for King's Landing the morning after the Battle of the Trident. But when Ned got to King's Landing, he knew the plan was to crown Robert, as did Jaime. If Robert only made the proclamation some time after the Battle of the Trident, that suggests that Ned lingered for a period of days or more after that battle before he went to King's Landing.
  5. The Twinslayer

    Small Questions v. 10105

    Interesting. Thank you both.
  6. The Twinslayer

    Small Questions v. 10105

    Did GRRM change his mind between Game of Thrones and Storm of Swords on when Brandon Stark died? In Game of Thrones, Ned says he and Robert rode out to "win a throne" fifteen years prior. Catelyn says the war lasted a year. And Littlefinger says that Brandon "has been moldering in his frozen grave for some fourteen years now." Taken together, that implies that Brandon died at the end of the rebellion. But in Storm of Swords, Jaime says that Brandon died before the rebellion started. Any thoughts on how to reconcile this apparent discrepancy?
  7. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.165

    It is good to know that Ran has done some sleuthing about some of these SSMs and realizes that some of them should be discounted as unreliable. I tend to take all of them -- particularly those that pre-date A Dance With Dragons -- with a grain of salt for three reasons. First, we are relying on fans, some of whom are reliable and some of whom may not be, to report accurately what GRRM has said to them. Second, GRRM was a lot more accessible in the 1990s and early 2000s, before the show made him really famous. It seems that he had a real incentive to answer fan questions when he needed to do that to sell books and that he gave the best response he could to those questions based on whatever his current thinking was at the time. Third, he appears to have changed his mind over time about certain events. For example, there are a lot of SSMs from the period immediately following the publication of Storm of Swords where he talked about the fact that there would be a "five-year gap" between the end of Storm and the beginning of the next book. But he has freely admitted that he changed his mind about that. That means that there are characters like Bran and Ned Dayne who were children in Storm and who were intended to be adults in the next book who did not age 5 years between the end of Storm and the beginning of A Feast for Crows. That has obvious implications for the plot: if Ned Dayne was supposed to be 17 or 18 in Dance but in fact was only 12 or 13, there are things GRRM intended for him to do that he cannot now do. And there are other good examples of things he told fans around the time Storm was published about which he has since changed his mind. I would like to see in particular the one that supposedly says that the rebels decided that Robert would take the throne only around the time of the Battle of the Trident. That seems inconsistent with some of the things we see in the books. For example, in Game of Thrones, Ned says that at the start of the rebellion (fifteen years prior) "they had ridden forth to win a throne." That implies that they intended to take the throne away from the Targaryens from the start of the rebellion. And Dance with Dragons has Lord Godric recounting his reaction to the first battle of the rebellion (Gulltown) as follows: "Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.'" That implies that from the moment Jon Arryn defied the order to deliver Robert and Ned to Aerys, there was an expectation that Robert would take the throne if the rebellion succeeded.
  8. The Twinslayer

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    I am utterly confused by the suggestion that I have a "history" on this topic that is "not good." Evidently you and I disagree on whether GRRM changed his mind about what he (allegedly) said in an email to a fan in 1999 and the time he published the world book fifteen years later. I have explained my view on this clearly and it is based on a fair comparison of the e-mail and the text found in the world book. I have also explained elsewhere why I believe that the information that e-mail provides about Jon's birthdate was likely discarded when GRRM chose not to include the information about Ashara in Storm of Swords. It is a very reasonable theory; the only problem with it is that it challenges the timeline set out on the "reference guide" on the first page of the R+L=J page. That isn't a history on my part that is not good. That is just participating in an exchange of views on a discussion board. In fact, I have a hard time understanding how you think GRRM saying that Ashara "was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing in the first few years after Rhaegar married Elia" but actually meant that Ashara "was one of Princess Elia's lady companions on Dragonstone in the first few years after Rhaegar married Elia, although they visited King's Landing during that period as well." But I am prepared to assume that you have read the words and that that is really what you think they mean. Regarding your asking if there is evidence that Ashara may have been present at Harrenhal after the start of the rebellion, I believe I provided it already, but here it is. Barristan states that Ashara had a stillbirth and then threw herself off a tower "soon after." Let's assume she was pregnant for 6-9 months prior to the stillbirth and that "soon after" means within a period of zero to three months. That has her getting pregnant anywhere from 6-12 months before she supposedly died. Let's further assume that she was alive and well when Ned arrived at Starfall after the end of the rebellion and that Ned arrived at Starfall 12-14 months after the start of the rebellion. That means that Ashara became pregnant after the start of the rebellion, possibly as late as 8 months after the rebellion started. The rest is easy. Barristan says that Ashara was "dishonored" and that it happened "at Harrenhal." If the dishonoring led to the pregnancy that led to the (supposed) stillbirth, that means Ashara had to be present at Harrenhal when she became pregnant. That places her "at Harrenhal" at some point between the beginning of the rebellion and eight months after it started. Note that I am not saying that this is definitive. Barristan's musings are deliberately ambiguous. It is possible, for example, that she was dishonored at Harrenhall before the rebellion started but only became pregnant later on, possibly even by someone different from the person who did the original dishonoring. I don't think it is possible, however, that she became pregnant during the Harrenhal tournament and that the resulting stillbirth led her to throw herself off the tower. That would have Barristan thinking of a period of well over a year as "soon after," which is too much of a stretch for me. I am also aware that there is an argument that "at Harrenhal" means "at Harrenhal during the Year of the False Spring." That is one possible way to read it, but it is far from the only way to read it, since many things are described as happening"at Harrenhal" (using that exact phrase) both before and after Lord Whent's tournament.
  9. The Twinslayer

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    Of course Rhaegar had his own court on Dragonstone. All the Princes and Lords have a court. In fact, Elia grew up with two, since the epilogue to ADWD lists the members of "Prince Doran's court at the Water Gardens" and a separate list of the members of his court "at Sunspear." Hence, the statement that "Qyentyn had grown up amongst the courts of Dorne." And it is not just princes like Rhaegar and Doran who have their own court. When Davos went to White Harbor, he visited Manderly's court: "Davos had hoped to speak with Wyman Manderly alone, but he found a crowded court." When Catelyn and Tyrion go to the the Vale, they find Lysa "powdered and perfumed for the suitors who filled her court," and when Littlefinger proposes to Lyssa he wants to marry her "at the Eeryie, with your whole court in attendance." Sam remembers his father's court at Horn Hill, maester Aemon left the Citadel to serve at "some lordlng's court," Mace Tyrell always "keeps singers at court" in Highgarden, Stannis "keeps court" on Dragonstone, and Jon says about Ygritte that she would not have been thought pretty "at a lord's court." Ser Harrys Harlaw has a court at Grey Garden. Lady Miranda Royce keeps her father's court "lively." The Barratheons kept their own court: "Luke Velaryon's death was witnessed by many eyes at the court of Storm's End." At Casterly Rock, we are told that "Lady Ellyn held a splendid court."
  10. The Twinslayer

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    That is unnecessarily harsh. I'll assume that is because you misunderstood my motive in making this point in this thread. You are correct that I do not believe that the part of that SSM relating to the relative timing of Jon's and Dany's births is accurate. I think it contradicts too many things we learn during the course of the books. But that is not what this thread is about, and it is not what my post was about. My issue with that SSM (and a number of others) is that I think it is demonstrably incorrect yet there are a significant number of threads and theories that are distorted by the assumption that it is canon. In other words, the assumption that that SSM is correct leads many posters to form convoluted theories that aren't really consistent with other things we learn in the books. The timing of Jon's birth is just one example: most of the theories about the timeline for Robert's Rebellion are distorted by using that SSM as a reference point. The problem with doing that is that there is no good way to reconcile the common belief that Jon is younger than Robb; the fact that Ned and Catelyn were married (and Robb was conceived) after the Battle of the Bells, as explained in ASOS; and the SSM's placement of Jon's birth around the time of the Sack. To me, the only logical explanation is that GRRM had a draft ASOS chapter placing Jon's birth around the time of the Sack but he took it out of the book because it was inconsistent with the information Jaime and Catelyn provided in ASOS about the timeline for the Rebellion. But as I said, that is not why I brought this up here. I raised it here because your OP quotes the language stating that "As a matter or fact (a tiny tidbit from ASOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar." I believe that that matters because we know that that statement is flatly untrue: Rhaegar and Elia married in 280, Rhaenys was born in 280 on Dragonstone, and Elia was bedridden for six months after the birth. That means that even if Elia lived in King's Landing for some period of time while she was pregnant, it was for less than a year, after which she moved to Dragonstone for an extended period of time. So there is no way that Elia and Ashara lived together in King's Landing "in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar." In other words, what happened here is that at some point GRRM changed his mind about where Elia and Ashara were living at that time. This caught my attention because here you have started a thread about Ashara's whereabouts, a topic I find very interesting. It appeared to me that the information about where Elia and Ashara lived "in the first few years" of Elia's marriage might be important to your theory, since you quoted it. The information in the quote is not accurate, so I asked you how important that information is to your theory. That has nothing to do with when Jon Snow was born and everything to do with the theory you are advancing here. If I have understood your answer correctly, rather than agreeing that the 1999 quote about Ashara's whereabouts is inaccurate, you have two responses. The first is to try to reconcile the SSM with the information provided in the world book on the basis that placing Elia in King's Landing in the first few years of her marriage is consistent with Elia living on Dragonstone during those years if she visited King's Landing a few times during that period. I don't think that works. If that is what GRRM meant in 1999, he would have said "Ashara was a lady companion to Elia on Dragonstone, although they spent some time in King's Landing, too." The second is you say that GRRM simply moved this information from ASOS to ADWD. I don't think that works either, because while Barristan confirms that Ashara was a "companion" to Elia "at court," he does not say whether it is Rhaegar's court on Dragonstone or Aerys' court in King's landing. In light of the information in the world book it appears that Barristan was referring to Rhaegar's court. I also don't think that Barristan would consider "the first few years" of Elia's marriage (implying 3+ years) to be "not long at court." But none of this answers my question: is it important to your theory that the information relating to Ashara's whereabouts in the first few years of Elia's marriage be accurate. As the thread has developed, it appears that that might not be that important to your theory and that you are relying more on the statement that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall. So perhaps none of this matters to your theory after all. So perhaps my question has been answered. Having said that, I think you are making another common but possibly erroneous assumption. It appears that you are assuming that Ashara became pregnant during the tournament at Harrenhal and that she had her stillbirth within 9 months of the tournament and around eighteen months before she (supposedly) died. I think this is inconsistent with some other information you are referencing. The first is that Barristan says Ashara died "not long" after the stillbirth. I don't think "not long" means eighteen months. Also, you suggest that Ashara likely would have been dismissed from Elia's service and left Dragonstone when she became pregnant. By your reckoning, that has Ashara serving as a lady companion to Elia from some time in 280 until late 281 or early 282. To me, that is inconsistent with "the first few years" of Elia's marriage. You are basing the timing of Ashara's pregancy on Barristan's statement that she was dishonored "at Harrenhal." But that does indicate when Ashara was dishonored, it just tells us where. It could be that she was dishonored "at Harrenhal, during Lord Whent's tourney." But I think the better way to reconcile all of this is to conclude that Ashara was present "at Harrenhal," and was dishonored there about 9-10 months before Ned arrived at Starfall to return Dawn. That would place her "death" at a time "not long" after the (still?)birth. And, it would place the start of her pregnancy any time from a few months after the start of Robert's rebellion until shortly before the end of the rebellion. And depending on how long it took Ned to get from King's Landing to Starfall, it would have her giving birth any time from right around the Sack of King's Landing to several months after the Sack. In other words, it would be interesting to play out your theory about Ashara's movements if you factor in the possibility that she was dishonored "at Harrenhal" some time after the start of the rebellion. Anyway, whether you find my contribution interesting or not, I am interested in this topic and I have enjoyed reading your theory here.
  11. The Twinslayer

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    The point here is that the SSM places Elia and Ashara in King's Landing together in the early years of Elia's marriage to Rhaegar. But the world book says that Elia was on Dragonstone at that time. So the SSM is just wrong. And it is not just a case of moving information from ASOS to ADWD, because Barristan does not place Ashara in King's Landing during those years. He places her "at court." Given that she was a companion to Elia and Elia lived on Dragonstone, the "court" Barristan is referring to is not Aerys' court in King's Landing. It is Rhaegar's court on Dragonstone. It is possible that Ashara never once set foot in King's Landing. Which, to me, calls into question the entirety of the SSM, which is not really about where Ashara lived before the Harrenhal tournament but about whether it was logistically possible for Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents. On a related note, the information about Ashara being "dishonored at Harrenhal" is phrased in an interesting way. It does not say that she was dishonored during the tournament. It says she was dishonored "at Harrenhal." What if she stayed at Harrenhal with the Whents after the tournament and was caught there when winter returned after the end of the False Spring? In that case, she would have still been "at Harrenhal" when Ned Stark marched past early in the war (or if he went there on his way to or from Riverrun right before or right after his wedding to Catelyn). That would place Ned and Ashara together at just the right time for him to dishonor her "at Harrenhal" and for her to have a baby (or stillbirth) and then disappear "soon after."
  12. Keep in mind that the Starks had more than one title. Ned calls himself "Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North." He also tells us that before the Conquest, the Lords of Winterfell also called themselves Kings in the North: "The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North." So a head of House Stark named Brandon living pre-Conquest would be "Brandon of the House Stark, King in the North and Lord of Winterfell." Now, which title would a wildling like Ygritte used to refer that Brandon? She probably would not call him "King in the North" because she thinks that Winterfell is in the south. "'Bael the Bard made it,' said Ygritte. 'He was King-Beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south.' 'Winterfell's not in the south,' Jon objected. 'Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us.'" There is another reason to believe that Bael lived long before the conquest. It is Dany's vision of a blue rose growing at the Wall. The blue rose is associated with Stark maidens: the daughter of Lord (King) Brandon and Lyanna Stark. Dany's blue rose vision led to the expectation that Sansa or Arya would one day arrive at the Wall, at a point of weakness, and create a sweet smell. But when the time comes, it isn't Sansa or Arya. It's Alys Karstark, arriving at a desperate time for the Wall, and whose marriage helps to seal an alliance with the wildlings. How is Alys connected with the blue roses? She is a descendant of Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden. How is this possible, when the Karstarks broke off from the Stark line long before the Conquest? Because Bael and his Stark maiden lived centuries before the Conquest, when Boltons were still flaying Starks and wearing their skins.
  13. The Twinslayer

    Ashara, post Harrenhal possibilities

    This is an interesting theory and I will give it some more thought. But one thing jumped out at me upon initially reading it. You quote a pre-ASOS SSM in which GRRM supposedly said that we would learn in ASOS that Ashara was "one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar." The odd thing about this, of course, is that (1) that information did not make it into ASOS, and (2) we later learned via the world book that contrary to that old SSM, Elia did not live in King's Landing "in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar": rather, Elia lived on Dragonstone during that time, as indicated in a passage you cite from the world book. For purposes of your theory, I think this creates some confusion about where Ashara was between the tournament at Harrenhal and the time she jumped off the Palestone Tower that is not reflected in your analysis here. Do you see that as an issue? In my view, all it means is that that old SSM was probably an off-hand remark and that none of it should be taken very seriously. The information about Ashara contained in the world book is more likely to be accurate.
  14. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.165

    I am with you on a lot of this stuff. In particular, it seems clear that Ned believes that Jon is a bastard (his own, or Rhaegar's). I don't agree that it is possible that Ned is mistaken about this, however. Assuming we are right and Ned believes that Jon is a bastard, there are only two ways that Ned could be mistaken. Both assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. The first is that no-one ever told Ned that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. That is hard to believe. If Lyanna had any time at all with Ned (which she probably did, because she had time to tell Ned that she wanted to be buried at Winterfell and that Rhaegar had named the place the "tower of joy"), she would have said something about being married. Also, there is the "they" that found him clutching Lyanna's hand after she died. That passage is written to imply that the rest of Ned's forces rode up after he fought the kings guards. But let's take the common assumption that it was just Howland and Wylla (or some random maester who was supposed to be looking after Lyanna). Lyanna has been in the tower for weeks, if not months, with Wylla (or whomever) and the kings guards. If the kings guards think Lyanna is a princess, surely they called her by that title at least once in Wylla's (or the master's) presence. And surely if that was the case, Wylla (or the maester) would have mentioned that to Ned at some point along the way to Starfall. The second is that someone told Ned that Lyanna and Rhaegar underwent some kind of wedding ritual and that Ned immediately dismissed that as a BS ceremony that could not produce a legitimate heir to the throne. Bottom line: Ned believes that Jon is a bastard because Jon is a bastard. There are a lot of reasons to think that there was no (real) public Rhaegar-Lyanna marriage. One is that, if there was, Ned would not think that Jon was a bastard. Another is that Connington would not remember Rhaegar's marriage (singular) to Elia with such bitterness. But I do agree with you that it would be a common assumption that Lyanna was impregnated by Rhaegar. Ned tells us Rhaegar was interested in Lyanna (named her queen of love & beauty); Robert says Rhaegar "raped" her thousands of times; Cersei frets that she will be "put aside for a new Lyanna"; and Barristan says that Rhaegar loved his "Lady Lyanna" (note, not "Princess Lyanna"). And we know Rhaegar had two children by a woman who was known to be frail, meaning that he was fertile. And we know Rhaegar and Lyanna were off somewhere unknown, where they "could not be found," for several months. Anyone in-universe who knew that would have assumed that Lyanna was either barren or became pregnant. Anyone who has read a few fantasy novels reads Robert's statement that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and immediately knows to expect that there is a child running around somewhere. That means that Ned's story about Jon being his (Ned's) bastard has to be very believable. My own theory is that one of two things happened there. The first possibility is that Ned stayed in Dorne long enough after the Rebellion to impregnate Wylla or Ashara after Lyanna was dead and to bring the child (Jon) home to Winterfell. Meaning that Jon was born about 10 months after the Sack. The second is that R+L=J and that no-one had the gumption to call Ned a liar when Ned called Jon "son" for "all the North to see." Reading the Ned/Robert conversations about all of this, you could draw the conclusion that Robert knew or suspected that Jon was Rhaegar's son but was prepared to look the other way because as long as Ned tucked him away in the North as a bastard with no chance of inheriting anything, Robert had nothing to worry about. Add that to sending Jon to join the Watch, thereby forsaking any claim to the throne, and why would Robert have any interest in provoking a fight with his staunchest ally? But Robert hates Targaryens, you might say. He has shown no interest in killing Maester Aemon (who, as a Maester, can't take the throne, just as Jon cannot). He showed relatively little concern about Viserys -- he claims he could have killed Viserys any time before Illyrio took him in. What Robert cares about is a threat to his throne -- it is only when Dany marries a Dothraki who has an army that Robert gets serious about killing her. I think Robert suspects that Jon is R+L but does not care so long as Ned has taken him off the board by claiming that Jon is Ned's bastard son. And that Robert has a further reason for not acting against Jon -- that Jon may in fact be Ned's bastard son.
  15. The Twinslayer

    R+L=J v.165

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I understood you to be saying that Ned believes Jon is not a bastard because he thinks (1) Jon is Rhaegar's son, and (2) Rhaegar does not go to brothels. My point is that we have one other example where it is made clear that a particular man does not go to brothels. That is Jaime Lannister, who has three bastard children with a highborn woman. If GRRM intended us to believe that Rhaegar's (maybe) not going to brothels was a hint that Jon is legitimate, he would not have Jaime telling us that he never goes to brothels.
×