The COTF Master Plan: Part 2

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

NEW: Part 3

A few months ago I posted Part 1 of my theory. It was… not well received (overall). And I think this is because it was put together rather quickly, and I didn’t include the arguments for the basis of the theory in the OP, namely that prophecies are lies and that time travel exists. In retrospect, this post should have probably been part 1. I then decided, instead of posting part 2 a few days later like I said I would, to first do another full reread of the entire series, including TWOIAF and the D&E stories, and then reread a few of GRRM’s relevant non-asoiaf stories for good measure. Well, that took a while. Instead of including a ton of my speculation about the Master Plan (which I started to do in part 1) this post focuses only on the key arguments for the basis of my theory. I intend to post Part 3 within a couple weeks, which will include a shitload of speculation, and I am way less confident in that stuff than what I have included in this post.

For those of you who don’t feel like reading Part 1, basically I think that the “collective godhood of greenseers” is the real antagonist of the story, and that they are acting as puppet masters manipulating many of the characters and key events in asoiaf. When I refer to the COTF, I am referring to this godhood, and not the living children in the caves like Leaf. Anyways, here is Part 2:

 

Prophecy is a Lie

The first core part of my theory is that prophecies and green dreams, while often fulfilled, are not truly prophetic and are instead meant to manipulate different characters in the story. To start with, here is what I personally consider to be the most important passage in asoiaf so far:

 

It heartened Bran to hear that. Maybe they won't drown, then, he thought. If they stay away from the sea.

 

Meera thought so too, later that night when she and Jojen met Bran in his room to play a three-sided game of tiles, but her brother shook his head. "The things I see in green dreams can't be changed."

 

That made his sister angry. "Why would the gods send a warning if we can't heed it and change what's to come?"

 

Precisely. Great question Meera. If in fact the future cannot be changed and Jojen’s green dreams are truly prophetic, why would the gods bother sending him green dreams at all? Now you could argue that no one is sending the dreams and that Jojen has the ability to see into the future, but that leaves us with the same fundamental problem. Why do some people apparently have the ability to see the future if it cannot be changed? Why would GRRM even bother putting it in the story? Just as a literary device to create suspense for the reader? I think not. Clearly, the green dreams are being sent by someone to manipulate Jojen (and Bran) to change future events. If you are unconvinced by this line of reasoning, feel free to ignore the rest of my theory, because the whole theory is essentially based on the fact that someone is manipulating Jojen through his dreams. And really, the entire journey of Bran, Jojen, and Meera going north to find BR is insane. It is basically a suicide mission, one that they would have never taken without trusting in Jojen’s dreams.

 

Time Travel Exists (deal with it)

This brings me to the second core part of my theory, which admittedly is a harder argument to make without TWOW, but I’m fairly confident in it given the information we have. Time travel seems to exist in asoiaf, and the weirnet seems to facilitate time travel, at least in the form of sending one’s consciousness back in time. The main piece of evidence for time travel is the following logic: If green dreams are not truly prophetic and are actually sent to manipulate people, then certain verifiable content of the dreams (like the deaths of specific people) must either be caused by the dream sender, or must actually be information obtained from the future, or a combination of both. And while I do think that a lot of the content of green dreams/prophecies is being actively caused as part of the “COTF Master Plan” (thus making said content predictable), there are a few examples that I think are more likely to be information obtained from the future. The main purpose of including actual info from the future in visions seems to be to convince characters (like Bran) as well as the readers that the visions really are prophetic, when in fact the timeline can be changed.

 

The best 2 examples I can come up with that appear to be info from the future (specifically, the future in the previous iteration of the timeline) are the deaths of Alebelly (predicted by Jojen) and Jinglebell Frey (predicted by Patchface). You might be able to make an argument that the deaths of Mikken and Septon Chayle were predictable, but Alebelly died because he just happened to be on guard duty the night Theon showed up at WF, and he just happened to be at the spot on the walls so that he would be killed first by being shot with an arrow. Similarly, Jinglebell Frey was killed by Cat rather impulsively, and only because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Basically, if the COTF are powerful enough to predict/cause these 2 deaths without time travel ability, it would imply (in my opinion) they have insane abilities to be able to micromanage events and characters, to the point that their Master Plan is unnecessarily complicated, and they could have gone with a much simpler and shorter plan to achieve their goals.

 

This touches on my second argument for the existence of time travel. If dreams and prophecies are being sent by the COTF to manipulate characters, then their overall plan seems way too complicated with too many moving parts to be achievable without time travel. For example, what if Bran died falling from the tower? That would really fuck up the plan. As someone pointed out in the thread for part 1, time travel is basically an “I Win” button in the game of thrones. Well… almost. I think they will ultimately lose and their plan will fail, but that’s less important and more speculation on my part. But until they ultimately lose at the very end, they can keep going back to correct their mistakes.

 

This is a bit of speculation on my part, but here is my basic explanation on the mechanics of time travel in asoiaf: The timeline can be changed, and there are effectively infinite iterations of the timeline. Consciousness can be sent back in time (at least via weirnet) from the current iteration of the timeline to the next iteration. It avoids a paradox because you are not changing the “current” timeline by changing the past; you are changing the next iteration of the timeline. For the sake of the COTF Master Plan, the COTF exploit this mechanic by repeatedly manipulating events until they get a desirable outcome, or in other words, a version of the timeline in which they succeed.

 

A big piece of evidence supporting the idea of time travel is from ADWD, when Bran goes into the weirnet for the first time:

 

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

 

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning…

 

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away.

 

And later in that same chapter:

 

"… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive…"

 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak.

 

Now, in between those two initial journeys into the weirnet, BR provides what I consider to be a bullshit explanation of what happened:

 

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

 

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

 

You can certainly take BR at his word if you want to, but I personally don’t believe him. Along with the other evidence for time travel, and the fact that Ned reacted to Bran at all, I conclude that the past can be changed. At a minimum, it seems implied that Bran can change the past, even if BR is telling the truth about his own abilities. But I see no real reason to trust BR, and the evidence seems to indicate that BR can in fact change the past via the weirnet and has been doing so throughout asoiaf.

 

WARNING!!! SPOILERS FOR NON-ASOIAF STORIES AHEAD!!!

Finally, I would like to make the argument that none of this crazy or tinfoil, because GRRM has already written other stories that use these concepts, so it shouldn’t surprise us to see the same concepts show up again in asoiaf. And for those of you who have made the argument “George is writing a new story. He wouldn’t reuse concepts from old stories.” That’s a ridiculous argument. He reuses concepts (and character names) all the time. Hive-minded organisms that send visions to manipulate man to kill themselves shows up in a bunch of his older works, most notably (in my opinion) in Men of Greywater Station and in And Seven Times Never Kill Man.

 

 

The basic plot of Men of Greywater Station is that an intelligent malevolent fungus sends dreams and manipulates events via mind control of every organism infected with the fungus, in order to cause 2 groups of people to kill each other in a horrific violent battle at the end of the story. The fungus was for a long time unable breach the defenses of Greywater Station because their technology was sufficient to fend off attacks from all the infected animals, so instead it manipulated events to make the scientists at the station believe that a group of crash-landed (heavily armed) survivors was infected. When the survivors show up to take shelter, they are attacked, and they destroy the defenses of the station in turn, leaving almost everyone dead. This makes me think of the Others, who are probably not evil, but will end up fighting the NW anyways due to the manipulation of the COTF.

 

And Seven Times Never Kill Man is about a primitive society of animal-like intelligent creatures called the Jaenshi, who live in balance with nature and worship mysterious ancient pyramids that are telepathically connected to the Jaenshi and seem to control their behavior. When an extremist religious cult of humans called the Steel Angels comes to the planet, they start destroying the pyramids to clear out the Jaenshi for farmland. At the end, one of the pyramids transforms to display an image of the God of the Steel Angels. They stop their destruction and take the pyramid back to their base. They become telepathically linked to the pyramid like the Jaenshi, and their leader is sent visions commanding them to kill their children and burn all their food. Their are a number of obvious similarities between this story especially and asoiaf with the COTF and the weirwoods.

 

As for time travel, GRRM has written 3 stories involving time travel: For a Single Yesterday, Unsound Variations, and Under Siege. The first 2 stories involve characters sending their consciousness back in time into their own bodies in the past, while the time traveling character in Under Siege can take control of other people in the past, and all 3 stories seem to obey the mechanics of time travel that I described earlier. In my theory, I speculate that the COTF have long had the ability to go back in time via the weirnet and use their powers in the past like sending dreams and skinchanging animals, and I think that the entire point of getting Bran to join the weirnet is to gain his special ability of skinchanging other people, similar to Under Siege. Bran has already demonstrated his ability to take control of Hodor. And if I’m right, this end game would fit very well thematically in a story about slavery and feudalism, and playing the game of thrones. The COTF want to dominate mankind and effectively make them slaves or kill them off entirely, and it will be up to Bran to stop that from happening by choosing not to join the weirnet.

 

 

One day I will be like him. The thought filled Bran with dread. Bad enough that he was broken, with his useless legs. Was he doomed to lose the rest too, to spend all of his years with a weirwood growing in him and through him? Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.

 

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

 

So to wrap things up, I will say I am extremely confident that prophecies and green dreams are lies meant to manipulate characters, and I am fairly confident that time travel exists and that at least Bran will use time travel. I am less confident that the COTF are responsible for everything going on in the story and that they themselves have the ability to change the timeline, but it does seem to be the case. And to clarify, I think we are witnessing the timeline that has already been changed by Bran so that we can see the end result of the story in “real time”, as opposed to ending on a sort of unsatisfying cliff hanger where Bran says “now it’s time to go back and fix the timeline!” at the very end of the last book. And to those of you who made the argument “making the COTF puppet masters controlling everything that’s happened would be bad writing and a shitty story.” I disagree, I think that would be an awesome story. But I suppose we are both entitled to our opinions on that point.

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

@40 Thousand Skeletons, you said the CotF manipulate the timeline time and again until they achieve the desired outcome, and then you also said that they'll ultimately be defeated. Why not go back in time again and change that outline?

I am unconvinced, and I don't think you've provided any proof or even any actual support for your theory. 

The prophecies are not literal, and the characters fail to interpret them correctly. For instance, Jojen's green dream about the taking of Winterfell could have helped change the outcome if anyone had interpreted it correctly. 

Furthermore, Martin was asked once something about midicholrians (iirc), and his reply was something along he lines of, "if I wanted to write a sci-fi story, I'd write a sci-fi story". 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons, you said the CotF manipulate the timeline time and again until they achieve the desired outcome, and then you also said that they'll ultimately be defeated. Why not go back in time again and change that outline?

I am unconvinced, and I don't think you've provided any proof or even any actual support for your theory. 

The prophecies are not literal, and the characters fail to interpret them correctly. For instance, Jojen's green dream about the taking of Winterfell could have helped change the outcome if anyone had interpreted it correctly. 

Furthermore, Martin was asked once something about midicholrians (iirc), and his reply was something along he lines of, "if I wanted to write a sci-fi story, I'd write a sci-fi story". 

I'm pretty sure I provided at least a tiny bit of support there, you're judgement is a bit harsh. There is certainly not much hard evidence of time travel so far. But if you assume I am correct that prophecy is all a big trick (obviously I didn't convince you there) then I think it is the most likely explanation to facilitate the crazy complicated plan of the COTF which at a minimum involves getting Bran to come north to join the weirnet. Without time travel, it just seems like their are too many risks. I would be a lot more skeptical of the idea if GRRM hadn't already written 3 stories about time travel. And I am going to post a part 3 which will go over all the specific aspects of the plan we have witnessed, but that's a lot of speculation on my part, so I wanted to keep that as a separate post.

I'm not sure I understand your point about prophecy. Why do you think BR sends visions to Jojen? Or do you think someone else is? But again what other logical explanation is there other than the sender trying to change the actions of characters? If the future can be changed then Jojen is wrong, and they are being tricked. Just to clarify, I think some of his dreams are primarily meant to convince Bran to trust Jojen, like the one about the sea coming to WF. 

I think they will ultimately fail because they will somehow be destroyed, or Bran will be powerful enough to take over the weirnet, and they won't be able to go back in time to stop him, but that's totally just a guess and doesn't affect the rest of the theory.

I encourage you to look up that quote about the story "not being sci-fi" in its full context if it's the one I'm thinking of where he talked about the explanation for the seasons. Maybe you're talking about a different quote. Anyways, people reference it all the time and it's kind of a bull shit argument. For one fantasy and sci-fi are basically the same thing. And there are quotes from George talking about how he considered putting hidden sci-fi in asoiaf, and he has said that his dragons don't have 4 legs because it wouldn't be scientifically accurate. And even if you still think it's definitely not sci-fi in any way, there could still be time travel.

[Bluetiger]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I encourage you to look up that quote about the story "not being sci-fi" in its full context if it's the one I'm thinking of where he talked about the explanation for the seasons. Maybe you're talking about a different quote. Anyways, people reference it all the time and it's kind of a bull shit argument. For one fantasy and sci-fi are basically the same thing. And there are quotes from George talking about how he considered putting hidden sci-fi in asoiaf, and he has said that his dragons don't have 4 legs because it wouldn't be scientifically accurate. And even if you still think it's definitely not sci-fi in any way, there could still be time travel

Have you seen our discussion about Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd in The Amber Compendium Thread?

Here

Even if someone is die-hard supporter of 'ASOIAF can't have sci-fi elements' , concepts and themes of time travel existed even in the mythology from which GRRM got at least some inspiration for weirwoods.

From some old interview with GRRM:

Quote

“Fantasy and science fiction have become separate, a trend I think is particularly unfortunate. Fritz Leiber wrote The Big Time and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. Poul Anderson wrote The Broken Sword and Three Hearts and Three Lions, but then he wrote all the wonderful Nicolas van Rijn books. Jack Vance -- my hero! -- was a master of both forms. If you're a writer you're a writer: you can tell a story. Sometimes the difference is just the furniture. Aliens or elves, they're the Other, symbolically, metaphorically. I've always read all three of the forms. When I was a kid I'd be reading Heinlein one day and then Lovecraft or Robert E. Howard. (My father called it all 'weird stuff.') Now they've divided science fiction and fantasy into two different fields, and some people are trying to make them almost two antithetical fields. There's not enough cross-fertilization going on.”

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Have you seen our discussion about Yggdrasil and the Well of Urd in The Amber Compendium Thread?

Here

Even if someone is die-hard supporter of 'ASOIAF can't have sci-fi elements' , concepts and themes of time travel existed even in the mythology from which GRRM got at least some inspiration for weirwoods.

From some old interview with GRRM:

 

That's pretty awesome, I'll have to read through that whole thread later. I had seen that quote about furniture rules before, and that's a really important point to bring up. Someone may have mentioned this in that thread too, but just to support the idea of GRRM taking inspiration from the Yggdrasil myth, here's a quote from twoiaf:

The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.

[SiSt]

I like this idea. It's really just an other way of thinking about how we can interpret the roles of characters and events in the story, and that in itself is enjoyable regardless of whether it turns out to be correct or not. 

I will say that time travel is not just possible in this universe, but from the quotes you supply it's obviously being done. Even "a rustling of leaves" is actual time travel, and it has effects that may seem small at first, but that can potentially lead to very different outcomes. 

Say that Ned is praying to the old gods in the scene were Bran "speaks" to him through the weirwood, and that he takes the rustling to be a confirmation from the gods of a thought he just had. That thought could be anything and have unimaginable consequences for the story. 

As for controlling the outcome of time travel, that's infinitely harder, but this was from one of Bran's first attempts at using the weirnet so he'll certainly get better at it. 

[kissdbyfire]

@40 Thousand Skeletons, sorry if you felt I was too harsh; that wasn't my intention at all. As to your question about what I said, let me try to explain better. The prophecies/prophetic dreams are not literal, so Jojen doesn't dream of the iron born climbing the walls. Instead, he dreams of the sea flowing over the walls and filling the castle, and of people drowning. Jojen says the greendreams don't lie but imo that doesn't mean the outcomes can't be changed. For instance, the sea flowing over Winterfell's walls and filling the castle and people drowning means the iron born will attack, not necessarily that they will take Winterfell and kill those people. What would have happened if someone had interpreted the dream correctly and prepared for the attack? We don't know, but again, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. I'm not sure I'm making much sense here, sorry, it was a loooooong day at work!

@SiSt, I think that we learn that Bran can sort of communicate through the heart tree for a very different purpose in the story. Ned hears "something", the rustling of leaves. Theon hears Bran say his name, he even thinks that the Old Gods know his name. But those sound bites are not enough to carry a whole convo, and a time may come - very soon in fact - when Bran will have to have a whole convo through the heart tree, and that won't be possible. And then, he'll have to come up with a plan B.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, SiSt said:

I will say that time travel is not just possible in this universe, but from the quotes you supply it's obviously being done. Even "a rustling of leaves" is actual time travel, and it has effects that may seem small at first, but that can potentially lead to very different outcomes.

Exactly! If Bran can go back in time and rustle the leaves, he has already demonstrated the ability to change time. And if you place any value on prophecies, whether or not you think they are lies, then time travel almost certainly exists in some form, even if it's just the "gods" sending visions from the future into the past. Really, the only explanation for time travel not existing would be that every single green dream and prophecy that comes true was sent by a super-powerful player who can manipulate and predict all those events. Ironically, I sort of make the argument that the weirnet is doing that often, but I don't think the plan could be pulled off without time travel, because there are too many variables.

I'll get into this in part 3, but a big part of my reasoning regarding the "Master Plan" is that I think Howland Reed is one of many "agents" of the COTF manipulated by dreams (like his son Jojen), and that his trip to the Isle of Faces and the Harrenhal tourney was basically his assigned mission. And that implies that some complex plan has been ongoing for at least the last 20 years. And beyond that, I speculate that Daenys the Dreamer was warned of the Doom by the COTF, which led directly to the creation of the Targ dynasty, which would imply that the current "Master Plan" has been taking place for at least a few centuries. So again, executing such a long term plan without the ability to go back and correct their mistakes seems far fetched, even for asoiaf. But I fully admit I could be wrong about that aspect.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The prophecies/prophetic dreams are not literal, so Jojen doesn't dream of the iron born climbing the walls. Instead, he dreams of the sea flowing over the walls and filling the castle, and of people drowning. Jojen says the greendreams don't lie but imo that doesn't mean the outcomes can't be changed.

Yes, obviously the dreams are not literal, and sometimes they are super vague (like a horoscope), but other times they are very specific. Jojen said specifically that Alebelly, Mikken, and Septon Chayle would die, and sure enough those were exactly the people killed (and the only people killed) when Theon captured WF. As I stated in the OP, when Meera questions if the outcome of this particular vision could be avoided, Jojen says no. He specifically says:

"The things I see in green dreams can't be changed."

So while I would agree with you that the outcomes can actually be changed, Jojen would clearly disagree with you. And that sums up my main point. If Jojen is wrong, then the characters of Jojen, Bran, and Meera have been tricked into taking a suicidal journey north to find BR. It is implied that Jojen has seen a vision of his own death but believes it to be unavoidable, so he resigns himself to what he believes is his fate.

[Clegane'sPup]

13 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

For those of you who don’t feel like reading Part 1, basically I think that the “collective godhood of greenseers” is the real antagonist of the story, and that they are acting as puppet masters manipulating many of the characters and key events in asoiaf. When I refer to the COTF, I am referring to this godhood, and not the living children in the caves like Leaf. Anyways, here is Part 2

Words mean different things to different people. For a productive conversation to take place individuals need to establish their definition of words so that understanding can take place. Agree?

How does Martin describe his CotF and greenseers?

Quote

 

Game of Thrones - Bran VII

Maester Luwin tugged at his chain collar where it chafed against his neck. "They were people of the Dawn Age, the very first, before kings and kingdoms," he said. "In those days, there were no castles or holdfasts, no cities, not so much as a market town to be found between here and the sea of Dorne. There were no men at all. Only the children of the forest dwelt in the lands we now call the Seven Kingdoms.

"They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

Luwin set down his quill. "No one truly knows, Bran. The children are gone from the world, and their wisdom with them. It had to do with the faces in the trees, we think. The First Men believed that the greenseers could see through the eyes of the weirwoods. That was why they cut down the trees whenever they warred upon the children. Supposedly the greenseers also had power over the beasts of the wood and the birds in the trees. Even fish. Does the Reed boy claim such powers?"  "No. I don't think. But he has dreams that come true sometimes, Meera says."

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

 

I have not found any reference of time travel in these novels. Nor do I view the CotF as puppet masters manipulating the many characters and key events of ASOIAF.

I do however think that in some manner the CotF, BR and Bran will be instrumental in driving the Others back to the Land of Always Winter. In the back of my mind there is that nagging question why and how Martin put BR in the CotF cave?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

21 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have not found any reference of time travel in these novels. Nor do I view the CotF as puppet masters manipulating the many characters and key events of ASOIAF.

I do however think that in some manner the CotF, BR and Bran will be instrumental in driving the Others back to the Land of Always Winter. In the back of my mind there is that nagging question why and how Martin put BR in the CotF cave?

Well, if you believe in prophecy and green dreams, which I think is implied by your comment that you don't buy the idea of the COTF being puppet masters, then you have to admit that every prophecy and green dream that comes true is a form of time travel. It's information from the future. Whether or not you believe the characters will be able to time travel is another question, but at a minimum, time travel has been established in the form of prophetic dreams. Additionally, like I said in the OP, Bran goes back in time and rustles some leaves and gets Ned's attention. That's definitely time travel, albeit not very impressive. And GRRM has already written 3 other stories involving time travel, so it really shouldn't surprise us if there is similar time travel taking place in asoiaf.

To address your nagging question, my explanation is that BR, like Jojen and Bran, was guided to the cave by dreams for the purpose of adding him to the weirnet, just like they intend to do with Bran.

And in contrast with your theory, I think the goal of BR and the godhood in the weirnet is not to stop the Others, but to cause war between them and the rest of mankind. I think the Others are ironically named and are not evil. This would be perfectly in line with the rest of GRRM's stories. In fact, if the Others turn out to be evil, and the Azor Ahai prophecy is true and Melisandre is right about stuff, that would actually be a huge contrast from everything else he has written. Like I said in part 1, GRRM is an atheist hippie who likes to write stories about how religious extremists and war are evil, so writing a story where the followers of the Red God turn out to be correct and war is justified would be totally the opposite of the rest of his work, so I don't see it happening.

[SiSt]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons

@SiSt, I think that Bran can sort of communicate through the heart tree for a very different purpose in the story. Ned hears "something", the rustling of leaves. Theon hears Bran say his name, he even thinks that the Old Gods know his name. But those sound bites are not enough to carry a whole convo, and a time may come - very soon in fact - when Bran will have to have a whole convo through the heart tree, and that won't be possible. And then, he'll have to come up with a plan B.

Not saying that time travel necessarily has to be a big part of this story (would actually be surprised if it did, given how low-key the hints at it are), but I think it'll be within Brans powers to influence the past more directly than we've been shown so far. If it'll happen I'm not so sure. 

Anyway, just a rustle of the leaves would be enough at the right (or wrong) time and place. 

As far as timetravel goes in storytelling, I generally dislike it and feel like most possible implications are already clichés. My favorite version is the type in Hitchhiker's guide, where everything just sort of fits together and sorts itself out in the end, so never mind. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, obviously the dreams are not literal, and sometimes they are super vague (like a horoscope), but other times they are very specific. Jojen said specifically that Alebelly, Mikken, and Septon Chayle would die, and sure enough those were exactly the people killed (and the only people killed) when Theon captured WF. As I stated in the OP, when Meera questions if the outcome of this particular vision could be avoided, Jojen says no. He specifically says:

"The things I see in green dreams can't be changed."

So while I would agree with you that the outcomes can actually be changed, Jojen would clearly disagree with you. And that sums up my main point. If Jojen is wrong, then the characters of Jojen, Bran, and Meera have been tricked into taking a suicidal journey north to find BR. It is implied that Jojen has seen a vision of his own death but believes it to be unavoidable, so he resigns himself to what he believes is his fate.

My point is, Jojen could be wrong. 

[Clegane'sPup]

15 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well, if you believe in prophecy and green dreams, which I think is implied by your comment that you don't buy the idea of the COTF being puppet masters, then you have to admit that every prophecy and green dream that comes true is a form of time travel. It's information from the future. Whether or not you believe the characters will be able to time travel is another question, but at a minimum, time travel has been established in the form of prophetic dreams.

I don’t agree that every prophecy and green dream that comes true is a form of time travel. I equate prophecy as a form of fortune telling and green dreams as a form of seeing into the future. With prophecy it depends on the person receiving it, as in Rhaegar & his three heads and Cersei and her valonqar. Mel often misreads her fire visions and Jojen’s green dreams have to be interpreted. In Jojen’s case the sea did come to WF in the form of the Ironborn.

15 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Additionally, like I said in the OP, Bran goes back in time and rustles some leaves and gets Ned's attention. That's definitely time travel, albeit not very impressive. And GRRM has already written 3 other stories involving time travel, so it really shouldn't surprise us if there is similar time travel taking place in asoiaf.

Leaves rustle in the wind long before Bran ate the weirwood paste. The northern people worship the old gods and practice their faith in front of a heart tree. It gets more complicated when it is revealed that ravens, at least the ravens that attached to Coldhands, BR & the CotF speak.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

A faint wind sighed through the godswood and the red leaves stirred and whispered. Summer bared his teeth. "You hear them, boy?" a voice asked.<snip> No, stay," Bran commanded her. "Tell me what you meant, about hearing the gods."

Osha studied him. "You asked them and they're answering. Open your ears, listen, you'll hear."

Bran listened. "It's only the wind," he said after a moment, uncertain. "The leaves are rustling."

 

A number of people think as you do about Bran traveling in time. I’m just not one of them.  I’m getting off track from your op so I’ll zip my lip and come back later, if you like, to talk about last part of your reply. Thanks.

15 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

To address your nagging question, my explanation is that BR, like Jojen and Bran, was guided to the cave by dreams for the purpose of adding him to the weirnet, just like they intend to do with Bran.

And in contrast with your theory, I think the goal of BR and the godhood in the weirnet is not to stop the Others, but to cause war between them and the rest of mankind. I think the Others are ironically named and are not evil. This would be perfectly in line with the rest of GRRM's stories. In fact, if the Others turn out to be evil, and the Azor Ahai prophecy is true and Melisandre is right about stuff, that would actually be a huge contrast from everything else he has written. Like I said in part 1, GRRM is an atheist hippie who likes to write stories about how religious extremists and war are evil, so writing a story where the followers of the Red God turn out to be correct and war is justified would be totally the opposite of the rest of his work, so I don't see it happening.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I don’t agree that every prophecy and green dream that comes true is a form of time travel. I equate prophecy as a form of fortune telling and green dreams as a form of seeing into the future.

The point I was trying to make is that seeing into the future is itself a form of time travel. Information is traveling from the future into the past, even if a person is not.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

My point is, Jojen could be wrong. 

Lol, no, MY point is that Jojen could be wrong. In fact I'm arguing that he is almost certainly wrong, or else the green dreams would be pointless, which is the argument Meera tried to make to Jojen, but he didn't listen. And if Jojen is wrong, like you say he could be, then the sender of the dreams, BR, is a big fat fucking liar and has tricked Jojen into a suicide mission, which is a super dick move, and he should not be trusted by Bran or the reader. It implies that he has a hidden agenda that Bran would not be happy with, such as causing the war between men and the Others.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

-

[Praetor Xyn]

On 1/21/2017 at 4:06 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

A few months ago I posted Part 1 of my theory. It was… not well received (overall). And I think this is because it was put together rather quickly, and I didn’t include the arguments for the basis of the theory in the OP, namely that prophecies are lies and that time travel exists. In retrospect, this post should have probably been part 1. I then decided, instead of posting part 2 a few days later like I said I would, to first do another full reread of the entire series, including TWOIAF and the D&E stories, and then reread a few of GRRM’s relevant non-asoiaf stories for good measure. Well, that took a while. Instead of including a ton of my speculation about the Master Plan (which I started to do in part 1) this post focuses only on the key arguments for the basis of my theory. I intend to post Part 3 within a couple weeks, which will include a shitload of speculation, and I am way less confident in that stuff than what I have included in this post.

For those of you who don’t feel like reading Part 1, basically I think that the “collective godhood of greenseers” is the real antagonist of the story, and that they are acting as puppet masters manipulating many of the characters and key events in asoiaf. When I refer to the COTF, I am referring to this godhood, and not the living children in the caves like Leaf. Anyways, here is Part 2:

 

Prophecy is a Lie

The first core part of my theory is that prophecies and green dreams, while often fulfilled, are not truly prophetic and are instead meant to manipulate different characters in the story. To start with, here is what I personally consider to be the most important passage in asoiaf so far:

 

It heartened Bran to hear that. Maybe they won't drown, then, he thought. If they stay away from the sea.

 

Meera thought so too, later that night when she and Jojen met Bran in his room to play a three-sided game of tiles, but her brother shook his head. "The things I see in green dreams can't be changed."

 

That made his sister angry. "Why would the gods send a warning if we can't heed it and change what's to come?"

 

Precisely. Great question Meera. If in fact the future cannot be changed and Jojen’s green dreams are truly prophetic, why would the gods bother sending him green dreams at all? Now you could argue that no one is sending the dreams and that Jojen has the ability to see into the future, but that leaves us with the same fundamental problem. Why do some people apparently have the ability to see the future if it cannot be changed? Why would GRRM even bother putting it in the story? Just as a literary device to create suspense for the reader? I think not. Clearly, the green dreams are being sent by someone to manipulate Jojen (and Bran) to change future events. If you are unconvinced by this line of reasoning, feel free to ignore the rest of my theory, because the whole theory is essentially based on the fact that someone is manipulating Jojen through his dreams. And really, the entire journey of Bran, Jojen, and Meera going north to find BR is insane. It is basically a suicide mission, one that they would have never taken without trusting in Jojen’s dreams.

 

Time Travel Exists (deal with it)

This brings me to the second core part of my theory, which admittedly is a harder argument to make without TWOW, but I’m fairly confident in it given the information we have. Time travel seems to exist in asoiaf, and the weirnet seems to facilitate time travel, at least in the form of sending one’s consciousness back in time. The main piece of evidence for time travel is the following logic: If green dreams are not truly prophetic and are actually sent to manipulate people, then certain verifiable content of the dreams (like the deaths of specific people) must either be caused by the dream sender, or must actually be information obtained from the future, or a combination of both. And while I do think that a lot of the content of green dreams/prophecies is being actively caused as part of the “COTF Master Plan” (thus making said content predictable), there are a few examples that I think are more likely to be information obtained from the future. The main purpose of including actual info from the future in visions seems to be to convince characters (like Bran) as well as the readers that the visions really are prophetic, when in fact the timeline can be changed.

 

The best 2 examples I can come up with that appear to be info from the future (specifically, the future in the previous iteration of the timeline) are the deaths of Alebelly (predicted by Jojen) and Jinglebell Frey (predicted by Patchface). You might be able to make an argument that the deaths of Mikken and Septon Chayle were predictable, but Alebelly died because he just happened to be on guard duty the night Theon showed up at WF, and he just happened to be at the spot on the walls so that he would be killed first by being shot with an arrow. Similarly, Jinglebell Frey was killed by Cat rather impulsively, and only because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Basically, if the COTF are powerful enough to predict/cause these 2 deaths without time travel ability, it would imply (in my opinion) they have insane abilities to be able to micromanage events and characters, to the point that their Master Plan is unnecessarily complicated, and they could have gone with a much simpler and shorter plan to achieve their goals.

 

This touches on my second argument for the existence of time travel. If dreams and prophecies are being sent by the COTF to manipulate characters, then their overall plan seems way too complicated with too many moving parts to be achievable without time travel. For example, what if Bran died falling from the tower? That would really fuck up the plan. As someone pointed out in the thread for part 1, time travel is basically an “I Win” button in the game of thrones. Well… almost. I think they will ultimately lose and their plan will fail, but that’s less important and more speculation on my part. But until they ultimately lose at the very end, they can keep going back to correct their mistakes.

 

This is a bit of speculation on my part, but here is my basic explanation on the mechanics of time travel in asoiaf: The timeline can be changed, and there are effectively infinite iterations of the timeline. Consciousness can be sent back in time (at least via weirnet) from the current iteration of the timeline to the next iteration. It avoids a paradox because you are not changing the “current” timeline by changing the past; you are changing the next iteration of the timeline. For the sake of the COTF Master Plan, the COTF exploit this mechanic by repeatedly manipulating events until they get a desirable outcome, or in other words, a version of the timeline in which they succeed.

 

A big piece of evidence supporting the idea of time travel is from ADWD, when Bran goes into the weirnet for the first time:

 

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

 

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning…

 

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away.

 

And later in that same chapter:

 

"… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive…"

 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak.

 

Now, in between those two initial journeys into the weirnet, BR provides what I consider to be a bullshit explanation of what happened:

 

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

 

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

 

You can certainly take BR at his word if you want to, but I personally don’t believe him. Along with the other evidence for time travel, and the fact that Ned reacted to Bran at all, I conclude that the past can be changed. At a minimum, it seems implied that Bran can change the past, even if BR is telling the truth about his own abilities. But I see no real reason to trust BR, and the evidence seems to indicate that BR can in fact change the past via the weirnet and has been doing so throughout asoiaf.

 

WARNING!!! SPOILERS FOR NON-ASOIAF STORIES AHEAD!!!

Finally, I would like to make the argument that none of this crazy or tinfoil, because GRRM has already written other stories that use these concepts, so it shouldn’t surprise us to see the same concepts show up again in asoiaf. And for those of you who have made the argument “George is writing a new story. He wouldn’t reuse concepts from old stories.” That’s a ridiculous argument. He reuses concepts (and character names) all the time. Hive-minded organisms that send visions to manipulate man to kill themselves shows up in a bunch of his older works, most notably (in my opinion) in Men of Greywater Station and in And Seven Times Never Kill Man.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The basic plot of Men of Greywater Station is that an intelligent malevolent fungus sends dreams and manipulates events via mind control of every organism infected with the fungus, in order to cause 2 groups of people to kill each other in a horrific violent battle at the end of the story. The fungus was for a long time unable breach the defenses of Greywater Station because their technology was sufficient to fend off attacks from all the infected animals, so instead it manipulated events to make the scientists at the station believe that a group of crash-landed (heavily armed) survivors was infected. When the survivors show up to take shelter, they are attacked, and they destroy the defenses of the station in turn, leaving almost everyone dead. This makes me think of the Others, who are probably not evil, but will end up fighting the NW anyways due to the manipulation of the COTF.

 

And Seven Times Never Kill Man is about a primitive society of animal-like intelligent creatures called the Jaenshi, who live in balance with nature and worship mysterious ancient pyramids that are telepathically connected to the Jaenshi and seem to control their behavior. When an extremist religious cult of humans called the Steel Angels comes to the planet, they start destroying the pyramids to clear out the Jaenshi for farmland. At the end, one of the pyramids transforms to display an image of the God of the Steel Angels. They stop their destruction and take the pyramid back to their base. They become telepathically linked to the pyramid like the Jaenshi, and their leader is sent visions commanding them to kill their children and burn all their food. Their are a number of obvious similarities between this story especially and asoiaf with the COTF and the weirwoods.

 

As for time travel, GRRM has written 3 stories involving time travel: For a Single Yesterday, Unsound Variations, and Under Siege. The first 2 stories involve characters sending their consciousness back in time into their own bodies in the past, while the time traveling character in Under Siege can take control of other people in the past, and all 3 stories seem to obey the mechanics of time travel that I described earlier. In my theory, I speculate that the COTF have long had the ability to go back in time via the weirnet and use their powers in the past like sending dreams and skinchanging animals, and I think that the entire point of getting Bran to join the weirnet is to gain his special ability of skinchanging other people, similar to Under Siege. Bran has already demonstrated his ability to take control of Hodor. And if I’m right, this end game would fit very well thematically in a story about slavery and feudalism, and playing the game of thrones. The COTF want to dominate mankind and effectively make them slaves or kill them off entirely, and it will be up to Bran to stop that from happening by choosing not to join the weirnet.

 

 

One day I will be like him. The thought filled Bran with dread. Bad enough that he was broken, with his useless legs. Was he doomed to lose the rest too, to spend all of his years with a weirwood growing in him and through him? Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.

 

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

 

So to wrap things up, I will say I am extremely confident that prophecies and green dreams are lies meant to manipulate characters, and I am fairly confident that time travel exists and that at least Bran will use time travel. I am less confident that the COTF are responsible for everything going on in the story and that they themselves have the ability to change the timeline, but it does seem to be the case. And to clarify, I think we are witnessing the timeline that has already been changed by Bran so that we can see the end result of the story in “real time”, as opposed to ending on a sort of unsatisfying cliff hanger where Bran says “now it’s time to go back and fix the timeline!” at the very end of the last book. And to those of you who made the argument “making the COTF puppet masters controlling everything that’s happened would be bad writing and a shitty story.” I disagree, I think that would be an awesome story. But I suppose we are both entitled to our opinions on that point.

 

 

I love this theory and have been thinking along the same lines for years.

To add my own bit of tinfoil, Sweetrobin has a werewood throne and has suffered seizures for years. If he stops having seizures after descending from the Eyrie it would support my theory that COTF inside the werewood net are trying to possess him through his throne, causing his seizures.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

13 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I love this theory and have been thinking along the same lines for years.

To add my own bit of tinfoil, Sweetrobin has a werewood throne and has suffered seizures for years. If he stops having seizures after descending from the Eyrie it would support my theory that COTF inside the werewood net are trying to possess him through his throne, causing his seizures.

Glad you like it! Final part will be up very soon. I am also curious to see if Sweetrobin stops having seizures after leaving the Eyrie. It would be such a perfectly ironic GRRM thing to have the asoiaf characters assume he has epilepsy, and the readers assume he has epilepsy, only to find out that spirits were trying to seize control of his body, which is what people in real life thought epilepsy was in the past.

The weirwood throne in the Eyrie is interesting in the context of my theory, though I didn't actually bother to mention it in the OP. On the one hand, I'm not sure exactly how the mechanics of the weirnet work. Are the "souls" of greenseers and/or other children absorbed into the tree itself? Are souls stored in blood? Do trees naturally have some kind of soul-storage capacity? It's tough to say. But on the other hand, the story of the Eyrie godswood supports my theory. History says that they tried to plant a weirwood in the Eyrie, but it would not take root. This would make sense since there could be no greenseer attached to the root system for it to survive. But that implies that the weirwood throne may not be hooked into the weirnet. It may contain the souls of some singers who want to rejoin the weirnet and have been causing Sweetrobin's seizures for some reason. Hopefully we will find out in TWOW.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Yes, the Eyrie does have a weirwood Throne, but it is a chair made out of Weirwood. it is no longer a tree, nor does it have any roots and is therefore not connected to the 'weirnet' (for lack of a better word). There are no trees whatsoever in the Eyrie. They tried planting them, but no trees ever caught root in the hard stony ground (not even a weirwoodtree).

The CoTF trying to skinchange into Sweetrobin should therefore be dismissed. Perhaps the WW throne does have some effects on Sweetrobin, I will not deny that, but the WW throne is not a tree, has no roots and is not/no longer connected to the CoTF. It is a piece of dead wood.