Joff is no dumber than Dany.

[HaeSuse]

Intentionally inflammatory title to try to get some real reads here.

 

I had a big discussion with my wife about this. She agrees, but with some caveats. My point is:

 

Joffrey is not stupid. Also, Dany is as stupid, or more so, than Joff.

 

On these very forums, you can barely click on something without some Joff hatred. I get it. I hate the little brat, too. Tyrions POV chapter where he dies is one of my favorites in the whole series. Likewise, it seems that most readers like Dany. You very rarely see/hear anyone criticize her decisions or her intelligence. After all, she's decidedly dominating an entire continent.

 

However, I argue, Dany makes dumber decisions, day in, day out, than Joff could've dreamed of doing. And, furthermore, the only reason we like her, and hate him, is his cruelty, and her apparent compassion (which I argue she little of, anyway). Finally, the only reason we see her actions as reasonable, and his as immeasurably stupid, is because GRRM wrote the outcomes to force us to do so.

Point by point for Joff:

• Joff's most infamous shenanigan that people use as proof he is a moron is the Valyrian Steel dagger used to mercy kill Bran. For one, the act itself was only a young teenage boy doing what he thought his father would want. Was it right? No. Was it misguided? Yes. Was it stupid? No, no and no. I myself remember doing misguided, wrong, things as a teenager, wanting to impress my old man. Was I stupid? Maybe. But this didn't prove it. It just proves he's a normal kid who wants his dad's love and admiration. And to claim that picking the Valyrian Steel Dagger was stupid, ignores a simple fact. No 13 year old kid in all of Westeros, would have known it. It is even described as being plain, nondescript and average looking. We can only assume the assassin himself didn't even know it, or he probably would've just kept the thing, and run away, selling it for a small fortune later. Or even, put it somewhere safe, and buy himself a cheap dagger to use in the attempt. I argue that this is no evidence at all for Joff being stupid. It's evidence he's a kid, that's all. And, if GRRM had written that the assassination attempt had been successful, then no one would be questioning it. Do you think Dany would've known the blade for what it was? Highly freaking doubtful.
• Beheading Ned Stark. Sure, one could argue this was stupid. However, he was only emulating his father, his grandfather, and his uncle. When Tywin completely eliminated the Reyne's and Tarbecks, did anyone tell him he was stupid, and that he could be starting a war? No. Why? Because it worked. Not because it was smart. But because it worked. Likewise, GRRM could easily have written that after Ned's beheading, the North splintered into half a dozen subgroups, unable to find common cause, unwilling to start another rebellion. He could've hung the Starks out to dry, as much as he hung the Reynes out to dry. He didn't. But that's purely coincidence. When looking at the bare facts, he knew (or could've known) war with the North was imminent, anyway. And he could've thought "if I let Ned off, after he openly questioned my legitimacy, I am inviting others to do the same." You know what? That was Tywin's exact logic when he went over Lord Tytos' head and wiped out those 2 houses. And he knew it could've led to BAD results. He gambled, and won. Joff gambled, and lost. Now we say Joff is dumb, and Tywin is brilliant. Horse manure. They both made utterly ruthless decisions based on the "strength through power" premise, and rolled the dice. Dany is notorious for her lack of compassion toward traitors and those she feels wronged by. I doubt highly she'd have sent Ned to the wall. Yes, she lets Jorah go. But that is a one off exception, not the rule she follows.
• The riots in KL. Yeah, this might be his crowning stupid achievement. However, I was once 13, believe it or not. And thinking about the situation, I can't say I'd have done better. And I'm a smart man. Not a genius, but I've got a decent glob of gray matter up there. I mean, you're led your whole life to believe in your own nobility and entitlement. To find out, in a brutal instant, that commoners might not see you how you see you, seems like the classic teenage angst scenario, only with nobility and thrones involved. I just can't see that as a giant hit on a 13 year old. And do I even need to compare this to Daenarys Stormborn? She thinks she's God's gift to Westeros (and Essos, and men, and women, and everything else). Do you think she would've responded well to all of her vassals rioting against her? Not bloody likely.

 

For Dany:

• Walking into a fire. GRRM himself has mentioned she is NOT immune to fire. This was some magic (from Miri I suppose?) that protected her. She did not KNOW that though, and walked into a fire based purely on her lunatic Targ delusion of being a "dragon". GRRM could easily have written "and when the flames died down, the remains of the Khalesar saw a severely burned girl, hairless, swollen and blistered, holding 3 charred and cracked dragon eggs- nothing but ash now. She died an hour later of her injuries". Joff would never do such a thing. Partly because he's craven, sure. But partly because he knows he is a human. An entitled, lucky, bratty, human. But a human. Not some god on earth, or dragon reborn, or magic prince, or fairy king. Just a boy.
• Trusting Mirri Maz Duur. Really? I mean, you just rode into town, a blazing horsestorm of death and destruction, murdering, pillaging, razing, raping, enslaving, and you expect one lady who you "save" from slavery to now be your loyal vassal and leal servant? Really? She's lucky that Mirri only killed her husband and child. Idiotic. GRRM saved her in the telling of the story, but seriously, even Viserys wouldn't have fallen for it. Certainly not Joff. He would've just beheaded her. Dany had a misguided, and plainly stupid, idea that "hur hur, I'm not letting my men enslave you!" would mean the village viewed her as a savior. That's smart?
• The comet. She actually believes it is a sign meant for her. I mean, can you imagine how incredibly vicious the attacks would have been on Joffrey if he saw the comet and said "that means XYZ"??? He'd have been lambasted and ridiculed. But, Dany? "Isn't she cute and smart and strong?!?!"
• The Unsullied "purchase". Dany had no clue here. I mean, GRRM to the rescue, again, of always in trouble Targ-girl. Did Dany KNOW Drogon would obey her? What if the unsullied had stayed true to their masters? Think of it this way. Would Joff be commended for his brilliance, if he did this? Or would he be attacked as an idiot? Absurdly stupid move that in retrospect looks BRILLIANT!

 

There is a lot more, I think, that backs this up. I wonder, though, if anyone is able to take off their Targ colored glasses for a minute, and really look at those 2 characters for what they are. Children. Not stupid. Kids.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

You make some good points. This should generate some really interesting discussion.

GRRM himself would agree with you on some of this, particularly your points on Joffrey. His own words indicate that Joffrey is just a spoiled rotten 13 year old who has been given pretty much unlimited power. Most 13 year old boys would do badly when given that kind of power.

Dany however did have some kind of instinct that she wouldn't be harmed by the fire. It wasn't just that "fire can't kill a dragon" nonsense. She had an idea that it would work. And given that it did work, that means she was right. However, as instinct and intelligence do not have to coincide, I agree this doesn't make her smart but it doesn't make her stupid either.

Trusting MMD shows Dany's innocence level. It doesn't occur to her that someone whose life she saved would deliberately double-cross her. I hate to say it but Dany doesn't have the advantages in education that Joff has. All she had from a rather young age was Viserys to tell her what is what, and how the world works. So of course she's clueless about things like what to expect from MMD. Doesn't make her stupid, just ignorant.

Half the cast seems to think the comet is a personal sign for them. But since we're not discussing the rest of them, consider that Dany's perspective--based on the lack of an education she got from her brother, and not having all the info the readers have--is that the comet represents dragons, which means Targaryens. So far as she knows she is the last Targaryen, so who else would she think the comet is for?

Yes, she did know Drogon would obey her. And she'd already established before that extremely gutsy move that the Unsullied would obey her exclusively as soon as she had that whip. That said, she was very lucky the Masters of Astapor weren't into false advertising on that front. There's a lot of plot armor protecting Daenerys.

I also agree that both Dany and Joff need to be considered in light of their ages, their advantages and disadvantages, and that any-family-colored-glasses will distort perceptions. 

[the Other Wolf]

It is known....the unsullied follow their master....Dany even confirms she is the master before she gives the order to attack.

Maybe the OP should look up the definition of naive vs. stupid. 

Joff had the best support staff money could buy, ie teachers.  Dany had a crazy older brother and moved around alot with no formal teaching or training. After all those that protected them saw V as the heir to the Iron Throne.

Dany is the definition of naive.

Joff is a dumb fuq, or stupid to relate it back to the OP.

 

[JonSnow4President]

5 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

 

On these very forums, you can barely click on something without some Joff hatred. I get it. I hate the little brat, too. Tyrions POV chapter where he dies is one of my favorites in the whole series. Likewise, it seems that most readers like Dany. You very rarely see/hear anyone criticize her decisions or her intelligence. After all, she's decidedly dominating an entire continent.

 

Oh, are all the Dany haters gone now?  I haven't been in this forum all that much, but that certainly is a change from a year ago.  There used to be a plethora of (mostly irrational) posters who hated anything she did and found and excuse why it was a bad thing, even if they praised another characters similar actions (without getting into nuance that could possibly separate those actions).

I personally don't like her and think she has some of the most egregious plot armor (oddly enough, Tywin is actually my second on that front), but this argument is ridiculous. Multiple characters immediately identify Valyrian Steel on sight (although most of these are from a family with one in the family so that is a possible mitigating factor for Joffrey. It is described as being immediately distinctive from normal steel. Regardless, he is risking war (at best outcome for him) in exchange for something he can never tell his father about. So it doesn't fufill his aims, and his hugely costly.  Seems dumb to me.  

Executing Ned was also dumb.  You guarantee the North rebelling (and likely serve as a unifying force for the Northern Lords who are known to love Ned [which you would expect a Crown Prince to know].  Whereas leaving him to the Watch as long as he publicly confirms your legitimacy and his treachery, you have the public confession of a known honorable man to throw in the face of future proclamations from people like Stannis and likely avoid war with the North altogether, as you have a ++ hostage and have eliminated Ned as a political factor. 

As you acknowledge the riot was stupid.  However, comparing it to Dany is as shortsighted as Joffrey has shown himself to be.  Dany does deal with rebellions and criminals, and limits her response to people who are at least involved or connected to someone involved (or she is told they're involved) in that behavior. That doesn't mean she doesn't target innocents (the daughters she orders tortured for example), but she makes an effort to not do the equivalent of cutting through a crowd of random bystanders.

[King Ned Stark]

Dany is a polarizing figure, perhaps the most polarizing in ASoIaF.  I don't hate Dany, though for some reason I feel compelled to say Jon is my favorite character left alive.  I think that disclaimer is a product of someone who reads this forum and it seems for the most part if you like one you must hate the other.

Having said that, Dany is a young teenage girl in an incredibly complex situation.  As @Lady Blizzardborn said, most young children given ultimate power will eventually abuse that power.  My growing dislike for Dany, even though I somewhat understand her growing sense of entitlement, is I feel Martin is making her out to be a villain.  

OTOH, Joff seems so over the top cruel, that I don't necessarily judge him on intelligence.  Having said how kids will abuse power, most kids won't open up a cat to see what the insides look like.

[Lifestream]

I think it's wrong to compare your younger self to them, as they are in a different position and they have different responsibilities. Also Joffrey, as he is royal and would one day be King, is supposed to have received the appropriate education to understand history, politics and why not, lessons on how to rule. But as we've seen from Tyrion's POV, he doesn't seem particularly studious.

I thought it was widely accepted that Daenerys sometimes makes emotional decisions that end up costing her. (like killing the slavers she had made an agreement with for the Unsullied and then dealing blood for blood for the slaves) That's why you hear so many bad rumors about her. Jorah was a good councilot for Dany I believe and he gave her some solid advise. Unlike Joffrey, Dany didn't exactly have an official council. Only Jorah and Berristan are well-versed in Westerosi culture (perhaps Missandei too), and Barristan doesn't to be much into politics (I think he admits it's not his area of expertise and would rather avoid making such difficult decisions when Dany isn't around in ADWD)

 

In Dany's defense, although she does make impulsive decisions she's more likely to listen to Jorah (when he was around) and weighs things and seems to be better at judging people than Joffrey (well we're not in his head)

 

Joffrey though has the whole KL behind him and his mother and Tywin and Tyrion, but he doesn't wanna listen.

It has also been implied that LF had an hidden influence on Joffrey so I guess Ned's death could be traced to LF. Regardless, Joffrey has had and has(while he is alive) better tools than Daenerys to rule and better advisors. Cersei really fucked up with Joffrey with her influence and let's not forget that there are people like LF and Varys who are just bidding their time.

 

Thing is both have difficulties, but I would expected more from Joffrey considering he's not on the run, was born and raised in Westeros, was supposed to become King someday and he's so severely lacking in ability to rule and keep peace. He is young true and a lot of the blame can be traced back to Cersei.

So I just find it a little unfair to compare Dany to him, I agree that Dany displays a lot of entitlement but Joffrey does too. He makes decisions because HE CAN since he's a King.

[Maxxine]

The OP hasn't been on the forums long enough if he thinks everyone likes Dany. It's probably between Dany & Sansa as the most divisive characters in the books. 

Anyway the events mentioned don't make the OP's case. It's very unlikely the Joffrey didn't know what Valyrian steel looked like. VS seems like one of those things that is readily identifiable by every character as soon as they see it. Plus as Prince Joff was educated so he would've learned about VS and seen drawings of it. And he admits knowing about VS before the wedding.

Comparing killing Ned to the Reynes & Tarbecks completely ignores context. Killing the Reynes wasnt going to force a whole region against you. Tywin was LP & only the Westerlands were going to be concerned and the rest wouldn't rise against him. The Reynes & Tarbecks also didn't have family that Tywin had to worry about coming to avenge them bc he killed the whole family. Killing Ned on the other hand was obviously different. The North was already marching so it was clear the killing Ned wouldn't help. And Jaime has already been captured so why kill the biggest piece of leverage you have.

Id give him a pass for the riots if that were the only thing. Bc he is really just acting like a brat. But had he just opened his eyes he would've realized if nothing else how outnumbered he is. 

For Dany, GRRM spends a whole book building her bond with eggs & dragons and her figuring how to hatch them. It's something that's driven by instinct not just a random whim like you try to make it out to be. 

Trusting MMD is naivety. The same kind of naivety Ned shows when he tells Cersei he knows about her and Jaime. It can also be argued that she wasn't wrong to trust MMD bc MMD actually did help. In the instances of Drogo and Rhaego her instructions weren't followed.

Its weird you single out Dany for comedy thing when pretty much every other character sees the comet as some kind of omen, including Joffrey. Considering the comet appeared just as the dragons were about to be hatched she's really the only character that has a valid reason to believe the comet is about her. 

Taking the Unsullied it had already been set up in her previous chapter that Drogon would listen to that command. And she asked about the Unsullied's obedience before she came up with the plan & tested their obedience before giving the order. True it's possible the masters could've trained to not attack the Astapori but that was a risk she was willing to take.

Fwiw I think Joffrey's issue has more to do with cruelty than stupidity. Its just being cruel leads to short sighted decisions. And even as Dany fan she's far from perfect. She comes off some great white hope here to civilize the savages in slavers bay, which I think is a mixture of naivety and arrogance. And she makes some bad decisions while in Meereen and think that has more to do with inexperience than stupidity. 

[Drogonthedread]

Quote

  n these very forums, you can barely click on something without some Joff hatred. I get it. I hate the little brat, too. Tyrions POV chapter where he dies is one of my favorites in the whole series. Likewise, it seems that most readers like Dany. You very rarely see/hear anyone criticize her decisions or her intelligence. After all, she's decidedly dominating an entire continent.

Hmm huh hmm ..forgive me for asking just want to make sure ..are we talking about westeros.org or some other alternate universe

Just reading that line makes it clear that the remaining post  will be completely unbiased and fair and reasonable..I will however read and response to that later .