Legitimization of Jon Snow

[The hairy bear]

The witnesses of Howland Reed, Wylla, or any of the servants at the Tower of Joy may be considered enough, but some may question. Reed is a vassal of the Starks, and the others are commoners.

I guess someone will produce some written documents revealing the whole affair. Love poems of Rhaegar to Lyanna and their unborn son, the personal diary of Lord Commander Gerold, letters from Arthur Dayne to their Starfall kin,...

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The witnesses of Howland Reed, Wylla, or any of the servants at the Tower of Joy may be considered enough, but some may question. Reed is a vassal of the Starks, and the others are commoners.

I guess someone will produce some written documents revealing the whole affair. Love poems of Rhaegar to Lyanna and their unborn son, the personal diary of Lord Commander Gerold, letters from Arthur Dayne to their Starfall kin,...

 

No one knows and respects Howland Reed. Howland Reed is Ned's friend. He also fought against Targs. So Aemon and Daenerys will not believe him.

[The Commentator]

20 hours ago, pigpiginsunspear said:

Not the point.  The point is that Jon can be legitimized by Royal decree, as Ramsay was.

He can be legitimized by a royal decree but that decree will only be as good as the ability of the grantor to enforce his will.  

1. Robb was not a king yet.  So looking at it from the point of view of legality, his will had none.  Robb never became king and had no authority.
2. Robb is no longer in power.  Walder, Roose, and Tywin saw to that.  It ain't easy for a dead boy with no head to backup his will.

[The Commentator]

44 minutes ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

 

No one knows and respects Howland Reed. Howland Reed is Ned's friend. He also fought against Targs. So Aemon and Daenerys will not believe him.

Aegon and Daenerys, whichever Reed tries to convince, should unceremoniously dismiss the frog-eating crannogman.  

[The Commentator]

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

1. Any king or queen can legitimize any bastard. Aegon could legitimize Jon if he finds out about him. And this would in no way endanger any of Aegon's potential children because they'd come before his little brother anyway.

Aegon would be a fool to do that.  Jon is not trustworthy.  Jon's conduct at the wall will become common knowledge.  He betrayed his duties for fArya.  That's not who you want to place trust on.

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

2. Rule 1 is backed up and strengthened when said monarch has dragons. If Dany decides to legitimize half of Westeros as Targaryens (most through descent from Aegon IV), nobody will stop her. For that matter she can legitimize Hot Pie as a Manderly, Podrick as a Lannister, and anybody else as anything else. Any complaints can be met with a one-word answer: dracarys.

Daenerys should not do this.  Better to let a bastard remain just that, a bastard.    

As far as marriage, Jon is not her equal.  I would counsel Her Majesty to consider Willas Tyrell instead.  

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

3. The parents of a bastard being alive or dead has no bearing on legitimization issues. Jon can be legitimized even if he has no living relatives closer than a 538th cousin, 1052 times removed. 

This is true.  However, legitimizing someone whose head looks very much like an Oscar-Meyer wiener standing on its end would be highly suspect.  I can see legitimizing him as Jon Stark.  That family line is known for their peculiar long faces.  I would never legitimize him as a Targaryen.  Look at the trouble it caused when Aegon IV legitimized his oversprays.  Going back through history, look how the Baratheons repaid Aegon's descendant.  Aegon granted Stormsend to the bastard, Orys. 

[velo-knight]

1 hour ago, Brandon Baratheon said:

 

No one knows and respects Howland Reed. Howland Reed is Ned's friend. He also fought against Targs. So Aemon and Daenerys will not believe him.

I think what the others are trying to say is that there are many small pieces of evidence which, while not conclusive by themselves, can become convincing or at least plausible enough to consider when taken together.

If Jon can ride / show affinity to dragons; and it's politically convenient at the time for <Targ faction here> to ally with Rhaegar's bastard (and Robb Stark's heir), and Howland Reed and Wylla tell their stories, and there's some token in Lyanna's tomb - the sum of all the evidence is greater than the parts.

As for legitimization, that's actually the smaller hill to climb. 1.) Robb's will already did it, and if he acts as a Night's King / King-beyond-the-Wall / Stark in Winterfell once he returns from his ice nap, people may become used to treating him as legitimate - either as his subjects or his enemies. 2.) if it's politically convenient for <Targ faction here>, he may be legitimized again - he's still behind either Dany or Aegon as a legitimized bastard, and Daenerys at least does not believe she can have an heir. 3.) there's always the outside possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married polygamously. Whether this would be accepted depends a lot on how convenient it is for the lords of Westeros at the time - if they decide they like the sound of King Jon in a Great Council, but are concerned about the 'taint', they may suddenly find themselves amenable to the idea. We know from the story of House Justman that bastards have founded royal lines in Westeros before; so even if he's not legitimate he could still be crowned if the other obvious claimants are dead and he has sufficient political support.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/29/2017 at 2:32 AM, Brandon Baratheon said:

But why should Daenerys believe that he is really Rhaegar's son? Is there any proof?

If he rides a dragon that will be proof enough for most people in the series, as well as most of the readers.

But there are other options. For one thing we've got the last two greenseers and if Bloodraven lives long enough, Dany will be inclined to believe him if not Bran. After all BR is a relative who has been very much pro-Targ his whole life, even defeating Blackfyres more than once. He also has no reason to lie about this.

For another there's whatever is lurking in the Tomb of Requirement. There could be a Targaryen wedding cloak, various important documents, a dragon egg for baby Jon, Rhaegar's harp, Aegon I's crown. Tons of options.

And if we put Jon in decent lighting and purple clothes we might find he has those Targaryen/Valyrian eyes and the descriptions we've gotten thus far are based on people seeing what they expect to see (dark grey eyes because he's half Stark), rather than what's actually there.

Then of course there's the high likelihood that she'll kill young Aegon before finding out he really was her nephew (if he is) and that will make her less trigger happy where Jon is concerned. She'll be reluctant to roast her last living relative.

Ultimately though, it really doesn't matter whether Dany believes it or not. They've got this ice zombie hoard coming down from the north that must be dealt with before they have time to worry about who is or is not a Targaryen descendant. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/29/2017 at 10:54 AM, Brandon Baratheon said:

 

No one knows and respects Howland Reed. Howland Reed is Ned's friend. He also fought against Targs. So Aemon and Daenerys will not believe him.

Aemon is dead. And actually he'd be far more inclined to believe it than Dany would. He wouldn't be swayed by stupid things like anti-crannogman or anti-rebel sentiment. He'd weigh the facts, including his own knowledge of both Rhaegar and the DtwP prophecy, and decide based on that. 

The fact that Howland fought against House Targaryen and was Ned's friend actually makes him a far more reliable and believable witness. No rebel in their right mind would want to admit that the last remaining (in theory) male child of one of the major houses behind the rebellion is actually the son of one of the people they fought to get rid of.

On 3/29/2017 at 11:54 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Aegon would be a fool to do that.  Jon is not trustworthy.  Jon's conduct at the wall will become common knowledge.  He betrayed his duties for fArya.  That's not who you want to place trust on.

Daenerys should not do this.  Better to let a bastard remain just that, a bastard.    

As far as marriage, Jon is not her equal.  I would counsel Her Majesty to consider Willas Tyrell instead.  

This is true.  However, legitimizing someone whose head looks very much like an Oscar-Meyer wiener standing on its end would be highly suspect.  I can see legitimizing him as Jon Stark.  That family line is known for their peculiar long faces.  I would never legitimize him as a Targaryen.  Look at the trouble it caused when Aegon IV legitimized his oversprays.  Going back through history, look how the Baratheons repaid Aegon's descendant.  Aegon granted Stormsend to the bastard, Orys. 

1. Who says Aegon isn't a fool? Certainly he would not be the first Targaryen to qualify as one. Legitimizing your last living relative is a good idea. It means the throne can pass to someone with less chance of a massive bloody war.

Jon not being trustworthy is your opinion. And Aegon is not you.

He did not betray his duties. At no time did he stop protecting the realsm of men, and he was told that Arya had fled Ramsay which means all he did was authorize a rescue team to keep her from freezing to death on her way north.

Aegon will need someone who knows the situation at the Wall and with the Others. There is no one better than Jon for that. He would be a much bigger fool to NOT trust Jon.

2. Daenerys thinks she can't have children. The last thing she would do would be to leave the succession after her up in the air. After fighting to get Westeros back she will not leave it to be squabbled over by dogs after her death. 

3. She's not going to ask for your counsel, or mine, or anybody else's. Willas Tyrell is not her equal. Jon has royal blood in far greater quantities than Willas does, and greater than most of Westeros for that matter. And marriage in a medieval fantasy world is not about equals, especially when the realm is facing ice zombies. 

4. I'm sorry, but what? First of all legitimization does not depend on how someone looks. If he has Targ blood and gets legitimized, it will be as a Targ. No one questioned the non-Targ looking Targs who were trueborn just because they took after their non-Targ parents.

Aegon IV legitimizing his bastards was not the only part of that equation. If he hadn't given Blackfyre to Daemon, the war rebellions likely wouldn't have happened. It was the giving of the traditional Targaryen king's sword to Daemon that anti-Daeron factions used as their best "he wanted you to be king" argument to convince Daemon to rebel.

How the Baratheons "repaid" Aegon's descendant? What are you talking about? Orys was allegedly Aerion's bastard (not Aegon's). And he was never legitimized as anything because officially he was a trueborn Baratheon.

The only major problems between the two families occurred hundreds of years later and many, many generations down. The first was when Duncan the Small (who did not look like a Targaryen, BTW) broke his betrothal to Lord Lyonel Baratheon's daughter to marry a peasant girl. Not remotely an issue regarding Aegon I, Orys, or any bastards.

The second was over Aerys II burning and otherwise slaughtering perfectly innocent people (except Brandon). Again, no bastards involved, and Aegon I himself would have done something about the Mad King. Further, the living Baratheons during the rebellion were themselves descendants of Aegon V through his daughter Rhaelle (who married Lyonel's son Ormund as part of the deal to get him to knock off his temper tantrum over Duncan).

Neither of those things had anything to do with whether Orys Baratheon was a bastard or not.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

35 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If he rides a dragon that will be proof enough for most people in the series, as well as most of the readers.

And how that conversation would be? "Hey Jon I don't believe you're son of Rhaegar, here, take viserion and try to hide him, if you can then I'll proclaim you as a true Targaryen" And other. Why would daenerys believe in anyone telling his brother had a second wife? The brother she thinks is the most perfect being ever existed? Even Barristan constantly tells her how perfect he was.

[Lord Lannister]

Jon Snow being legitimized is tricky. Yes, a king can do as much, but given there are so many claimants at the moment, the standing of that legitimization is dependent upon that king's fate. Which is largely a moot point, given Jon would likely be casting his fate in with the king that legitimized him.

It's possible that Robb's will could legitimize Jon as a Stark and King in the North. The Northern lords may well rally to his cause, but his fate as a Stark would be dependent upon if he can hold the North against both the Others and southern kings. Stannis could name him Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. Of course that will only stick if Stannis wins the throne, assuming Jon survives a Stannis defeat. If he falls, it really doesn't matter if his tombstone says Jon Stark or Jon Snow.

Legitimizing him as a Targaryen is far more tricky even assuming he finds out. No Baratheon king will do so as that's yet another pretender to threaten him. It's hard to imagine Aegon or Dany doing so as his claim would then be rival theirs. This is all assuming Jon learns of his heritage. Making others believe it stretches credibility. Claiming the crazy frog man swears he's a secret Targaryen, he found a "secret stash" of tokens in his aunt's tomb, or that his brother "saw it in the trees" all will just get him laughed at, at best.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

And how that conversation would be? "Hey Jon I don't believe you're son of Rhaegar, here, take viserion and try to hide him, if you can then I'll proclaim you as a true Targaryen" And other. Why would daenerys believe in anyone telling his brother had a second wife? The brother she thinks is the most perfect being ever existed? Even Barristan constantly tells her how perfect he was.

First, she would offer Rhaegal, not Viserion. Viserion is the sweet dragon and the one most likely to be successfully ridden by non-Targaryens. Rhaegal is a jealous, greedy, pain in the butt, dragon who would be a much bigger challenge. 

Second, yeah pretty much "Oh, you're my brother's son? Prove it. Ride Rhaegal." is how it would go. Especially if she jumped the gun and wrongly killed (or had killed) her brother's other son Aegon. She would at least give Jon a chance. Worst case scenario he gets roasted like Quentyn did and she says "he was no dragon" and moves on.

Third, if Rhaegar had a second wife, that would make Jon legitimate and thus the entire point of the thread would be moot.

Fourth, Barristan does not call Rhaegar perfect, nor does Dany think of him as perfect. Close to it maybe, but she's the one who asked Barristan how it was her brother could do such a thing to his wife as run off with that Stark girl.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

23 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Second, yeah pretty much "Oh, you're my brother's son? Prove it. Ride Rhaegal." is how it would go. Especially if she jumped the gun and wrongly killed (or had killed) her brother's other son Aegon. She would at least give Jon a chance. Worst case scenario he gets roasted like Quentyn did and she says "he was no dragon" and moves on.

But how is this any pratical? And if he is a Targ but can't ride Rhaegal? Or, if he isn't a Targ and can ride Rhaegal? This is so stupid. And another thing, how are they going to meet? How is Jon going to know he's a Targ? And another one, what it does to the plot? I mean really. The special ability he has is ride dragons? That's all? And his army? And his mountains of gold to help the daenerys cause? Why would Daenerys go North before going south to conquer KL? That's a lot of questions that has to be awesered before we can say these two characters would ever met. And another thing, we simply don't know if Melisandre will even Ressurect Jon. That's just speculation as well.

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

26 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Fourth, Barristan does not call Rhaegar perfect, nor does Dany think of him as perfect. Close to it maybe, but she's the one who asked Barristan how it was her brother could do such a thing to his wife as run off with that Stark girl.

Perfect was just an exxageration to make a point.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But how is this any pratical? And if he is a Targ but can't ride Rhaegal? Or, if he isn't a Targ and can ride Rhaegal? This is so stupid. And another thing, how are they going to meet? How is Jon going to know he's a Targ? And another one, what it does to the plot? I mean really. The special ability he has is ride dragons? That's all? And his army? And his mountains of gold to help the daenerys cause? Why would Daenerys go North before going south to conquer KL? That's a lot of questions that has to be awesered before we can say these two characters would ever met. And another thing, we simply don't know if Melisandre will even Ressurect Jon. That's just speculation as well.

 

You're not thinking like a writer.

In the story, so far as anyone knows, Targaryens can ride dragons, and only Targaryens can do that. It's the closest thing they have to a litmus test. If Jon can ride a dragon, he will be considered half-Targ. Same goes for Tyrion who is most likely 100% Lannister, but if he rides a dragon people will think he's Aerys' son instead of Tywin's. GRRM has set this up this way for a reason.

They're going to meet. It's a given. The blue flower growing from the ice in Dany's HotU vision tells us this. How they meet is up to GRRM but it will probably have something to do with Dany finding out about the Others and flying north.

I don't know how Jon finds out, but GRRM has promised that he will find out who his parents really were.

You are trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say dragonriding would be Jon's only ability, or anything about gold (he doesn't have any), or Melisandre. For one thing, we don't know that he's dead yet, so we don't know that he's in need of resurrection. For another thing, we have never seen Mel bring anyone back, so yes that's total speculation. It would make more sense for Thoros of Myr to end up at the Wall and bring him back, but he has to be dead first. 

Dany doesn't have to go south to conquer KL. She's already south of it. She may not need to conquer KL at all. If she finds out there's a supernatural ice threat coming to kill all of her people she may do exactly what Stannis did and head up to stop the Others first, worrying about the throne later. It does no good to spend so much time conquering a kingdom that half the population ends up dead before you start fighting what's been killing them off.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You are trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say dragonriding would be Jon's only ability, or anything about gold (he doesn't have any), or Melisandre. For one thing, we don't know that he's dead yet, so we don't know that he's in need of resurrection. For another thing, we have never seen Mel bring anyone back, so yes that's total speculation. It would make more sense for Thoros of Myr to end up at the Wall and bring him back, but he has to be dead first. 

I didn't try to put words in your mouth. I was just pointing out that even if he can ride a dragon, and know this before meeting Daenerys (if he meets her not knowing he is a Targ he wouldn't even try). We don't know for sure if every single Targ can ride a dragon. What we know is that everyone who tried (and  succeeded) were Targs, but that doesn't mean every Targ can nor that just Targs can. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I didn't try to put words in your mouth. I was just pointing out that even if he can ride a dragon, and know this before meeting Daenerys (if he meets her not knowing he is a Targ he wouldn't even try). We don't know for sure if every single Targ can ride a dragon. What we know is that everyone who tried (and  succeeded) were Targs, but that doesn't mean every Targ can nor that just Targs can. 

So the rest of it about Melisandre was just you making pre-emptive comments in case I brought it up? That works.

No, we don't know for sure about the dragons. Sadly we haven't seen any Targs try and not succeed when it comes to the dragons. But the characters have even less knowledge than we do, so they'll judge according to what they think they know is true.

[velo-knight]

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But how is this any pratical? And if he is a Targ but can't ride Rhaegal? Or, if he isn't a Targ and can ride Rhaegal? This is so stupid. And another thing, how are they going to meet? How is Jon going to know he's a Targ? And another one, what it does to the plot? I mean really. The special ability he has is ride dragons? That's all? And his army? And his mountains of gold to help the daenerys cause? Why would Daenerys go North before going south to conquer KL? That's a lot of questions that has to be awesered before we can say these two characters would ever met. And another thing, we simply don't know if Melisandre will even Ressurect Jon. That's just speculation as well.

 

I mean, there's other arguments to how he'd prove it, but you need to actually listen to them.

Obviously it's all speculation - technically, so is RLJ. By definition, trying to forecast an uncertain future involves speculation.

It stands to reason that each character has significant future developments before they meet, including interaction with other characters. If one thinks Euron steals a dragon, maybe Jon gets the dragon in battle with him, setting up his initial rise to power as the King/Prince Regent in the North and savior of Westeros from Euron. Then, suddenly he's not just the Bastard of Winterfell, and all the gossip about his parentage is turned up another notch: sooner or later, someone's going to stumble on it. Even if they're not sure, even if they have no proof, they might tell others, and the more people think about it, the greater the chance someone stumbles on a line of evidence - which feeds the cycle back on itself until a conventional wisdom.

Alternately, maybe Daenerys, already weary due to whatever happens with Faegon, is happy to consider the chance she might still have living family, even if only bastardborn. We really don't know any circumstances of their meeting, so anything goes.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

40 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

So the rest of it about Melisandre was just you making pre-emptive comments in case I brought it up? That works.

No, we don't know for sure about the dragons. Sadly we haven't seen any Targs try and not succeed when it comes to the dragons. But the characters have even less knowledge than we do, so they'll judge according to what they think they know is true.

And that's the problem I have with the test. Daenerys could easily kill Jon with her stubborness. I don't see the test being used to test his true parentage. But I don't see an alternative either. So most likely he'll end riding a dragon but that would be underwhelming and anti-climatic for my personal taste. But in the end, is just opinions.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

40 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Even if they're not sure, even if they have no proof, they might tell others, and the more people think about it, the greater the chance someone stumbles on a line of evidence - which feeds the cycle back on itself until a conventional wisdom.

Alternately, maybe Daenerys, already weary due to whatever happens with Faegon, is happy to consider the chance she might still have living family, even if only bastardborn. We really don't know any circumstances of their meeting, so anything goes.

Quote

“Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?”

Tyrion admitted. “The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It’s a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword.”
.............


Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”

If enough people believe, then it could be just that.

[Chris Mormont]

Jon can and has been legitimized by Robb in his will and should now be considered a Stark.

He will never become a Targ for 2 reasons, 1) Dany would need to become Queen and then legitimize him which would then lead to another problem, he would come before her in the order of succession, a son of the first born son would come over a daughter.  2) I don't think he would want to.  if R+L is true, he is just as much Stark as Targ, but he was raised a Stark and he doesn't have the ambition to be King of the 7 Kingdoms