Hey kids, let's talk about the male gaze!

[Lord Varys]

@Walda

I'm not sure the knife thing in the Kerwin-Victarion situation is necessarily an invitation to kill the assailants. Threaten, injure, castrate, etc. any of them could also be what was implied there. We can be reasonably sure that Victarion does not approve of his men killing each other over such offenses. A man is supposed to defend himself. Else he becomes a woman and is rightfully used as a woman is. But presumably the Ironborn are civilized enough that not any advance made by a man on another man is (necessarily) answered by mortal violence.

As to your above question about openly lesbian characters - there are none in the novels but TWoIaF introduced us to the wife of Lord Forrest Frey, Sabitha Vypren, who - according to Mushroom - was 'a sharp-featured, sharp-tongued harridan of House Vypren, who would sooner ride than dance, wore mail instead of silk, and was fond of killing men and kissing women'. That should qualify as a genuine lesbian character. Another, even more prominent case, would be Essie, the mother of the pretender king Gaemon Palehair, who lived with a Dornish paramour, one Sylvenna Sand. Sylvenna is supposed to be one responsible for King Gaemon's progressive edicts.

In general gay characters really pop up more and more in the later books. Not just Connington and Prince Daeron but also in such unexpected cases as Whoresbane Umber.

As to the whole wildling culture thing - I find Ygritte's knife talk there to be one of the worst misogynistic statements in the entire series. I think the wildling culture is not portrayed as a progressive culture at all, but as a culture were personal strength and ruthlessness trump everything. You can only keep stuff (including yourself) if you can defend it. If you can't (either because you are physically or mentally weak) then you are at the mercy of others. That certainly favors men, but not exclusively, as the prominent example of Harma Dogshead shows. She is the one in charge of her tribe, not her brother, because she is the one who is feared.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

I think I understand your reading. Makes sense in light of the 'legitimate rape' talk we heard from misogynists not long ago. That didn't really occur to me because it's such stupid reasoning. It's like saying that your store can't be robbed if you have a gun behind the counter. Just so stupid as to be a non-starter. The people who use this 'legitimate rape' line of argument are just nakedly hateful and are being evil. 

My reading was simply that girls are all taught that no one is entitled to them. Something I deeply believe in. Overly generous? Maybe. 

But again, the notion that failing to say no with the point of a blade equates to consent? Didn't really occur to me, because that's something mentally ill people say. 

It's disappointing that this not obvious to everyone, that it is a discussion we even have to have.

[Tianzi]

Still the Wildlings stay higher with their acknowledging women's right to defend themselves than the 'civilized' likes of Randyll Tarly, who claim that if a female falls out of line, she just deserves to be raped.

On 3.05.2017 at 6:40 PM, Damon_Tor said:

True: homosexuality between women isn't nearly as maladaptive because women historically have lacked sexual agency.

BS in real life; and as far as we're talking about this book, about one third of its plot is basically built on one woman named Cersei Lannister having sexual agency.