Hey kids, let's talk about the male gaze!

[Renly's Banana]

26 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I'd say that while it's not about any 'filling up any feminist quota' or anything like that, the different treatment sometimes feel unnatural. If you are writing a POV story and involve women's and gays', walk the walk.

Bless you. This is the crux of what I've been getting at. 
If you're not willing to commit, then don't even include it. 

25 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But my dude we need to see who Martin is. He's a straight man, probably never had a gay experience in his life. As a straight man myself I can tell you, I've never watched gay porn in my life, and someone who was born 60 years ago probably didn't see either. It's easier to fantasize about lesbians (because is two woman having sex) than fantasize about two guys banging, not just easy but more pleasuring to him. I understand your criticism regarding useless sex scenes in the books and I agree, so that's why we should wait for a more intimate (if we have any) sex scene with another gay couple. Because having a gay sex scene for the sake of having it is a problem in on itself.

But my dude, see the last two or three posts I've made. Being an old straight man does not excuse you from writing things you are not familiar/comfortable with. That's sort of what authors are supposed to do. It's no different than an actor taking on a role. I'm not saying he's REQUIRED to do it, but if he's clearly toying with the idea of it, do it, don't half-ass it.

Also congratulations on having the most misleading username on this site.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Just now, rotting sea cow said:

There is one case, Runnymudd & Garth at the Wall , but again it is very subtle.

Given that there is no strong social or religious condemnation towards homosexuality in Westeros, it is of course strange that there are no more cases.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to say that George is a homophobe, but he should have done a better job at making things a bit more gay in his universe. And I mean really gay, not hetero-fantasy roleplay between two woman.

[Good Guy Garlan]

14 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I'd say that while it's not about any 'filling up any feminist quota' or anything like that, the different treatment sometimes feel unnatural. If you are writing a POV story and involve women's and gays', walk the walk.

I totally agree on that. If you're gonna write from the POV of a gay or a female character, commit to that perspective, don't halfass it. 

15 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But my dude we need to see who Martin is. He's a straight man, probably never had a gay experience in his life. As a straight man myself I can tell you, I've never watched gay porn in my life, and someone who was born 60 years ago probably didn't see either. It's easier to fantasize about lesbians (because is two woman having sex) than fantasize about two guys banging, not just easy but more pleasuring to him. I understand your criticism regarding useless sex scenes in the books and I agree, so that's why we should wait for a more intimate (if we have any) sex scene with another gay couple. Because having a gay sex scene for the sake of having it is a problem in on itself.

I assume Martin has never seen a dying man get stab in his infected stomach, causing his guts to spill out in a sea of pus. And yet he described that in perfect detail in ADWD. He's got the imagination and creativity to come up with an entire world, but he can't imagine what gay sex is like? I don't buy it. 

Also, I don't see why it would be such a huge crime to have a gay sex scene for the sake of it, when we've had lots of straight (or lesbian) sex scenes just for the sake of it. And it also wouldn't come out of nowhere. Like, GRRM chose to include a gay POV in the story. Unless JonCon is conveniently asexual, dealing with gay sexuality comes with the territory. 

It's just weird that the freaking Marvel movies and comics have a better grasp of the female gaze than this series. 

[Damon_Tor]

18 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

I hope you realize this is still an extremely lazy cop-out and excuses absolutely nothing. 

If you were physically incapable of writing something because you find it "instinctively repulsive", we would have nothing good in literature.

Of course you can write about it, but odds are good it's not going to be sexy.

As a thought experiment, do you think you could write a story about being pooped on that a scat fetishist would find sexy? (I'm assuming you are not a scat fetishist, so if you are this exercise is meaningless).

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I say, AGAIN, plenty of straight men have written gay relations and even sex before. Plenty of straight women have done the reverse.

And as a gay man, I've never read one that didn't come off as pandering tripe. It's fine if you have a different opinion. If you have an example which might change my mind I'd be interested to read it.

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I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of evolutionary instincts, so maybe you can school me softly a bit here. 
Are we hardwired to like murder? What about extremely graphic murder, via flaying, goring, burning to death? What about incest? Are straight men more prone to write about having sex with your siblings? What about warging into a wolf and having other wolves mount you so you can feel what that's like? That'd be bestiality. Is that -- biologically speaking -- more palatable to a straight author than writing two men having sex? Just asking for a friend.

First of all, as far as I know, when he writes about murder and torture and rape, he is doing so because he wants to disgust the reader. He wants us to hate Ramsay Bolton. He wants us to curl our lips at the Lannister incest. I've read quite a bit of fiction written by rape fetishists (my thesis was on a related topic) and it's written very differently from how GRRM writes about rape. GRRM focuses on the horror of rape, not on the erotic aspect, because GRRM is not a rape fetishist, and does not write ASoIaF to appeal to rape fetishists.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 minute ago, Renly's Banana said:

But my dude, see the last two or three posts I've made. Being an old straight man does not excuse you from writing things you are not familiar/comfortable with. That's sort of what authors are supposed to do. It's no different than an actor taking on a role. I'm not saying he's REQUIRED to do it, but if he's clearly toying with the idea of it, do it, don't half-ass it.

Also congratulations on having the most misleading username on this site.

Thanks for the compliment. And I agree with you, I'm not saying he has the fact he's a straight man as a EXCUSE, but it's obviosly one of the reason why he doesn't do it very often and sometimes simply doesn't do it. He should do it, but that explains why he is eager to write about two women banging and not two guys banging. Just pointing out some of the explanations. I agree with every post you made, but I do think we have to consider his straightness.

[Damon_Tor]

5 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to say that George is a homophobe,

But that's just it, he is a homophobe. All straight men are homophobes. It's the entire reason they're straight.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Also, I don't see why it would be such a huge crime to have a gay sex scene for the sake of it, when we've had lots of straight (or lesbian) sex scenes just for the sake of it. And it also wouldn't come out of nowhere. Like, GRRM chose to include a gay POV in the story. Unless JonCon is conveniently asexual, dealing with gay sexuality comes with the territory

No, as I said up there, It's not meant to be a excuse. IT's just a explanation why he doesn't want to write about it. And he might have read someone getting stabbed before, but it's hard to read something about gay men having sex when you're not interessed on the subject. It's easier to him to search about people getting stabbed for instance. And I'm not trying to excuse him for not writing about gay sex, he should write about it. But as you said somewhere here, sex for the sake of sex is bad, no matter if he did it before with women or man and a woman. That was the argument. But again, as people have pointed it out, he should write more about gay people in his universe. Because it doesn't make sense don't existing that many gay men or women. Unless they have a strange biology that doens't allow them to desiring the same birth sex as itself.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 minute ago, Damon_Tor said:

But that's just it, he is a homophobe. All straight men are homophobes. It's the entire reason they're straight.

Don't go full SJW man.

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 minute ago, Damon_Tor said:

Of course you can write about it, but odds are good it's not going to be sexy.

As a thought experiment, do you think you could write a story about being pooped on that a scat fetishist would find sexy? (I'm assuming you are not a scat fetishist, so if you are this exercise is meaningless).

Then why write from the POV of a scat fetishist in the first place if I'd find that perspective absolutely revolting? 

2 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

And as a gay man, I've never read one that didn't come off as pandering tripe. It's fine if you have a different opinion. If you have an example which might change my mind I'd be interested to read it.

The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Klay by Michael Chabon. I can't recommend that enough. 

4 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

GRRM focuses on the horror of rape, not on the erotic aspect

The scene of Dany and Drogo's wedding night says "hi".

[Ser Loras The Gay]

4 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The scene of Dany and Drogo's wedding night says "hi".

This. I hope he just did a bad job trying to convey the horror that Dany felt rather than fetishising her rape. But anyway, she learned how to sex after her rape, so.............. I don't know.

[Renly's Banana]

13 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Of course you can write about it, but odds are good it's not going to be sexy.

As a thought experiment, do you think you could write a story about being pooped on that a scat fetishist would find sexy? (I'm assuming you are not a scat fetishist, so if you are this exercise is meaningless).

You bet your ass I would write the poopiest, scattiest, juiciest crap love story I possibly can. If it's part of the character's personality and the scene requires it, even as a flashback, yes. Whether or not scat fetishists find it sexy or not is irrelevant, it's part of the character and the attempt was made to give him or her depth.  

Quote

And as a gay man, I've never read one that didn't come off as pandering tripe. It's fine if you have a different opinion. If you have an example which might change my mind I'd be interested to read it.

Again, this has nothing to do with it being sexy or not. I'm not asking to be turned on by JonCon getting freaky. I don't think ANYONE is asking for this. And as ANOTHER gay man, I can tell you that... well, yeah, most of it is pandering tripe. But I will always respect the effort that was made, even if it falls flat. If you decide to include gay characters into your story and decide to completely ignore everything about their sexuality (while writing everyone else's), that is worse.

9 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

But that's just it, he is a homophobe. All straight men are homophobes. It's the entire reason they're straight.

Don't even go there. You're not winning any brownie points. 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

13 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

I've read quite a bit of fiction written by rape fetishists (my thesis was on a related topic) and it's written very differently from how GRRM writes about rape. GRRM focuses on the horror of rape, not on the erotic aspect, because GRRM is not a rape fetishist, and does not write ASoIaF to appeal to rape fetishists.

Then why is there so much goddamn rape? I'm not necessaryly suggesting that he's fetishizing it in the commom sexual sense of the term, but he is definitely elevating it, and allowing it to pervade the narrative in a way that is impossible without imbuing it with great power. He may not be turned on by rape, but there's a pathological focus there. He's not just refusing to ignore the reality and horror of sexual assault. It is WAY more than that. 

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

No, as I said up there, It's not meant to be a excuse. IT's just a explanation why he doesn't want to write about it. And he might have read someone getting stabbed before, but it's hard to read something about gay men having sex when you're not interessed on the subject. It's easier to him to search about people getting stabbed for instance. And I'm not trying to excuse him for not writing about gay sex, he should write about it. But as you said somewhere here, sex for the sake of sex is bad, no matter if he did it before with women or man and a woman. That was the argument. But again, as people have pointed it out, he should write more about gay people in his universe. Because it doesn't make sense don't existing that many gay men or women. Unless they have a strange biology that doens't allow them to desiring the same birth sex as itself.

Then why include a gay POV character if he's so repulsed and disgusted by gay sex that he'd rather watch someone getting flayed than two men getting it on? 

6 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

But that's just it, he is a homophobe. All straight men are homophobes. It's the entire reason they're straight.

Whoa, whoa, I'm straight (much to the disappointment of my Free Loving parents) and yet I'm up and down in this thread clamoring for equality in representation. 

This comment shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how both sexual orientation and phobias work. 

[rotting sea cow]

7 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The scene of Dany and Drogo's wedding night says "hi".

But again, this is a consistent problem with most sex scenes. Dany said "yes" in the end, was that rape or not? This ambiguity is becoming infuriating. 

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 minute ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Then why include a gay POV character if he's so repulsed and disgusted by gay sex that he'd rather watch someone getting flayed than two men getting it on? 

I don't think he is disgusted or repulsed by gay sex. Like I said, he wrote about lesbian sex, and he wrote as almost fanservice to his straight audience. And to be fair conveying someone getting flayed in the context of the Boltons is important to the story, the problem with Martin is that he don't realise that conveying sexuality to his gay characters is as important as flaying people hahaha. I don't know Martin so everything that I'm saying here is just conjecture. Maybe he is a homophobe and he is repulsed by gay sex. Maybe he doesn't understand the importance of gay sex in his story. I don't know man.

[Tianzi]

28 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

But that's just it, he is a homophobe. All straight men are homophobes. It's the entire reason they're straight.

Uh, what?

How does that go with all the situational sexuality cases and cultures like ancient Greece?

Plus, there is the cultural influence of considering male homosexuality as something deeply shameful and demasculinizing. So quite possibly many 'straight' men claiming they are hard, cold Kinsey's 0's are not as straight as they would like to believe, and screaming homophobia helps them with self reassurement.

 

Anyway with all that 'George is a straight man' argument - yeah, we get it, but as a writer, especially one who's chosen this narrative structure, he is and should be able to assume roles and describe a tad more than his personal experiences.

"Bad books on writing tell you to "WRITE WHAT YOU KNOW", a solemn and totally false adage that is the reason there exist so many mediocre novels about English professors contemplating adultery".

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Anyway with all that 'George is a straight man' argument - yeah, we get it, but as a writer, especially one who's chosen this narrative structure, he is and should be able to assume roles and describe a tad more than his personal experiences.

"Bad books on writing tell you to "WRITE WHAT YOU KNOW", a solemn and totally false adage that is the reason there exist so many mediocre novels about English professors contemplating adultery".

I agree, I didn't read every reply so, sorry if I repeated the argument. But wasn't an argument was just to point out one of the many reasons that may contribute to why he doesn't care about gay sex. It's not a excuse, as I pointed out somewhere. He should learn more about it and apply that knowledge on the books. You're right. He's competent enough to do so.

[Damon_Tor]

57 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Then why write from the POV of a scat fetishist in the first place if I'd find that perspective absolutely revolting?

You shouldn't. That's the point.

 

[chrisdaw]

7 hours ago, kimim said:

If all but one of an author's positive females are beautiful (truly beautiful--not seen to be beautiful because they're smart or whatever) and if most of the author's not-so-positive females are "ugly," mustachioed or overweight, then the author is not challenging anything. The author has fallen victim to fairy tales.

Good thing that's not the text then.

[kimim]

7 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Understanding the way the brain works in regard to sex is important part of understanding ourselves and the way we think about sex and our own identities. Instincts are evolutionary responses to encourage adaptive behaviors and discourage maladaptive behaviors. Homosexuality is maladaptive: it makes it far less likely that a man will pass on his genes. This is why most men have an instinctive revulsion to it: those men are called "heterosexuals". Gay men lack this revulsion.

I think that the "revulsion" is socially created, anything but instinctive, and will eventually go away. In my personal experience, it's pretty much gone in younger people who have friends or family members who happen to be gay.

If you want a novel that features a same-sex couple as protagonists, try Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint. She doesn't romanticize the couple, nor does she fall victim to assigning uke-seme roles.