princess_snow

Jon and Sansa question. *No spoilers please*

31 posts in this topic

On 7/21/2017 at 2:59 AM, princess_snow said:

I hope Ive posted in the right sub here.

 

Someone I know who is only a show watcher asked me if I was getting the impression things were being set up for Jon and Sansa to end up together.

I have not thought this myself. I know originally GRRM was intending for Arya and Jon to but I believe that idea got scrapped.  

Just wondered if anyone else has felt this or picked up on something I have not ?

 

edit: formatting  

:cheers:

I've started hearing this theory as well-- I can't say I *hate* it. Others have pointed out passages in the books that indicate parallels between Sansa and Jon (when they are apart), and suggest they don't have a normal "sibling" relationship. I can't find the thread right now, but it's on here somewhere and the argument is well-supported.

I honestly like the Sansa/Jon theory MUCH more than the Jon/Dany pairing. Jon/Dany (Jany?) already feels tired and boring and predictable-- but maybe that's just me. Jany has been predicted for years, and I hope for more surprises! I also love Sansa (and Sophie Turner!) and hope her character arc becomes clearer in these final episodes.

We don't have a lot of show time left, but I could see Sansa/Jon (Jansa?) as a more natural progression from this point forward-- especially when they discover his true parentage. Right now, they are trying to figure out how to rule together. It's not perfect, but it's all new to them. They are also true Northerners and belong in Winterfell together (IMHO ;) )

I really can't wait to see how this all plays in the books. The "end" of GOT may only vaguely resemble GRRM's resolution. 

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10 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

When Ramsay mentioned to her that bastards can rise in the world. I got the feeling that the show might go in that direction. That was dashed early in Season 6. There is nothing there other than some not so close sibling rivalry. Nothing to see here stuff.

Ah, yeah ok.

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5 minutes ago, Reisendame said:

I've started hearing this theory as well-- I can't say I *hate* it. Others have pointed out passages in the books that indicate parallels between Sansa and Jon (when they are apart), and suggest they don't have a normal "sibling" relationship. I can't find the thread right now, but it's on here somewhere and the argument is well-supported.

I honestly like the Sansa/Jon theory MUCH more than the Jon/Dany pairing. Jon/Dany (Jany?) already feels tired and boring and predictable-- but maybe that's just me. Jany has been predicted for years, and I hope for more surprises! I also love Sansa (and Sophie Turner!) and hope her character arc becomes clearer in these final episodes.

We don't have a lot of show time left, but I could see Sansa/Jon (Jansa?) as a more natural progression from this point forward-- especially when they discover his true parentage. Right now, they are trying to figure out how to rule together. It's not perfect, but it's all new to them. They are also true Northerners and belong in Winterfell together (IMHO ;) )

I really can't wait to see how this all plays in the books. The "end" of GOT may only vaguely resemble GRRM's resolution. 

I knew I had read about it on here, and yeah the book parallels were well supported from what I can recall.

This is what I'm afraid of, although I thought the showrunners said they will end it same its just how they get there that will differ ?

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Why is it presumed that Jon, Dany and Sansa make it till the end? I guess two out of three aren't alive by the end of the show.

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Posted (edited)

They have a lot of chemistry but I'm not sure if it's the characters or the actors. First of all, Dany and Jon are definitely happening and secondly, ASOIAF's bittersweet ending won't be as bitter as we think, there is both bitter and sweet aspects to the LOTR ending. The fellowship achieved their goals and saved Middle Earth but this experience has deeply affected the characters. A loveless, "platonic" marriage is not bittersweet, it's just bitter.  If Jon ends up with someone, he will be happy. It will not end with a terrible unhappy marriage of convenience.

I believe it's a possibility but I have no idea how they could make it happen, how does Jon go from being in love with Dany to being in love with his sister/cousin in 6 episodes? It doesn't seem plausible to me but this is one of my favorite theories, so here's a couple of links: :P

Edited by TRILOGY

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4 hours ago, Count Winter said:

Why is it presumed that Jon, Dany and Sansa make it till the end? I guess two out of three aren't alive by the end of the show.

I suppose that a possible Dany+Jon romantic relationship would happen prior to the end of the story because I don't expect Dany to make it out alive. Jon might make it. Sansa will make it, for a long time I expect her to eventually become the Lady of Winterfell and that the Stark bloodline would continue thanks to her. Just a speculation ofc.

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14 hours ago, Count Winter said:

Why is it presumed that Jon, Dany and Sansa make it till the end? I guess two out of three aren't alive by the end of the show.

I don't necessarily think they will all make it. I do think think Dany and Jon will end up together at some point, possibly culminating in her ending up with child. I think Jon will end up beyond the wall.

 

Unsure about about Sansa's fate.  

10 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

I suppose that a possible Dany+Jon romantic relationship would happen prior to the end of the story because I don't expect Dany to make it out alive. Jon might make it. Sansa will make it, for a long time I expect her to eventually become the Lady of Winterfell and that the Stark bloodline would continue thanks to her. Just a speculation ofc.

I hadn't considered Sansa to be the one to carry on the Stark bloodline tbh , this is interesting. Who do you see her with ? 

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Posted (edited)

I believe in the theory and I support it, and feel it's supported through both textual evidence in the novels as well as what we've seen in the show (And I'm not alone in that, given that a number of entertainment articles sprang up over a year ago as people started noticing an undercurrent in the scenes with Jon and Sansa). My quick and dirty reasons...

1) Jon and Sansa do NOT have a sibling relationship. The moment Sansa was old enough to know what a bastard was, Jon became persona non grata in her world. She wasn't mean to him, and she spoke to him, but only when she had to, and otherwise ignored his existence. Jon had a sibling relationship with Robb, Arya, Bran, and maybe Rickon, but not with Sansa. "Brother" and "sister" are just words for them without the emotional weight which comes with those words. Their connection is loving the same people, not loving each other as siblings.

2) In the show, Jon nearly lost his virginity to a redheaded whore. His first love was Ygritte, a redhead. My theory is that his attraction to redheads stems from an early pubescent crush on Sansa, who in his world would have been like a distant princess in her tower. And of the few occasions when they did speak, one of them included an instance where Sansa tells Jon how he should talk to girls (Or rather, tells him what she would like. She's essentially teaching him how to hit on her).

3) Sansa is a deadly threat to her family, due to the fact that she has a claim to the North, which by extension would mean that any husband of hers would also have a claim to the North. People kept trying to marry her off because of that claim. Anyone she marries would likely do so with the possibility of taking the North in mind. If she continues being single, she remains a threat to Jon, Bran, and Arya. The only man she could safely marry who would never become a threat to Bran and Arya would be Jon Snow.

4) As has been noted above, there are numerous parallels between Jon and Sansa in the novels which can't be ignored. Sansa starts off the story wanting to marry a handsome, heroic prince. She becomes disillusioned with that, believing that there are no heroes, so the turnabout would be that she's always known a man who perfectly fits her description, and he lived in Winterfell with her her whole life. She even wishes that a her would come along and cut off Janos Slynt's head, but then tells herself that there are no heroes. Jon later cuts off Janos Slynt's head, making Jon Sansa's hero.

5) At this point, the only thing either character wants is to spend the rest of their lives in Winterfell and recreate the family which they lost. This is something which both characters have fantasized about. And both of them imagine that family filled with replacements for the people they lost. Conspicuously absent from their fantasies is each other, although there's a nebulous spouse which they can't picture. Now, separately, they can't both have what they want, as Winterfell would have to go to one or the other. If they marry each other, though, then both of them can have what they want, which is to recreate the Winterfell of their childhood together.

6) Going back to Sansa's claim, once his Targaryen lineage is uncovered, Jon loses his claim to the North. The only way then for him to remain King in the North is if he marries Sansa, which I believe would happen for so many reasons:

- It gives Sansa the power in the relationship, which is something she's always wanted. Before, marriage or engagement is something that's always been forced on her. Whoever she marries once and for all, it's someone she needs to choose, and the marriage has to be her idea. It can't be another case where she's forced into it or used to cement an alliance.

- We got what I believe is foreshadowing when Sansa made a cloak for Jon and put it around him. In Westerosi marriages, the husband puts his cloak around his bride as a sign of his protection. Sansa marrying Jon would be figuratively wrapping her cloak about him, protecting him.

- It's been the tradition of the First Men that great houses with nothing but female heirs would marry those daughters to men whose name the children would not carry, instead carrying the name of the great house (This has happened in the past with the Lannisters. Nothing but female heirs, so when they married, their children were named Lannister, not whatever their fathers were named). It could even mean that the husband would take on the name, which would make Jon a Stark at last, and his children would likewise be named Stark (A big sticking point with Jon from the very beginning, who refused to have children named Snow).

Jon and Sansa marrying makes perfect sense, and I believe it's supported by what we've seen onscreen, where there does appear to be chemistry between the two, with the camera shots and the atmosphere created by the visuals supporting a potentially burgeoning sexual attraction between the two (Or, if my theory is true, the reawakening of Jon's original attraction for Sansa as Sansa becomes attracted to Jon in turn). I believe it's already there, and they're both subconsciously fighting it, because again, "brother/sister" (A connection which they intellectually understand is one they supposedly have and represents a line which would be wrong to cross but it's a connection which they don't feel emotionally, and is being replaced by another emotion). And it makes perfect sense for both characters. They're both of the North, and neither intends to spend the rest of their lives in King's Landing sitting on the Iron Throne (Which I don't believe will even still exist by the time the show ends). They both want a family more than anything. And they don't want just any family, but the family they remember when they were children, and there's no one else in the world who could help them build that family than each other. For Sansa's part, after having grown up in the harsh realities of Westeros, she would be able to find that her girlish fantasies about marrying a heroic prince weren't so childish, and for Jon he would be able to share a life with a woman who was likely his first secret love and who's grown strong over the years and can stand up to him, having herself become a force to be reckoned with. I believe the showrunners have been subtly hinting at Jon and Sansa getting together, and once the revelation is dropped that Jon is actually a Targaryen and that they're cousins and not half-siblings, then the subtle hints will rapidly become overt hints.

As for Daenerys? She and Jon won't end up together (Not permanently, at any rate). My bet has always been that she would become the ultimate antagonist of the series, and NOT the Night King, who's far too much of a Lord of the Rings/Sauron/Evil Overlord cliche'. That's not Martin. What would be Martin is a version of Lord of the Rings where Galadriel is handed the One Ring and, rather than give it up, becomes a Dark Queen and the principal antagonist of the series. That passage from The Lord of the Rings is the one which I believe is the most influential on Martin's work, and I believe it's what's been driving his writing of Daenerys from the very beginning: setting up a beautiful queen as a seeming protagonist, but eventually turn her into the antagonist. Daenerys's story is the origin story for the villain.

Edited by Thor Odinson

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, princess_snow said:

I hadn't considered Sansa to be the one to carry on the Stark bloodline tbh , this is interesting. Who do you see her with ? 

Hm... no one special, I guess. I imagine it as a flash forward and Sansa as lady of Winterfell holding her 1st (2nd, 3rd....) child while her husband would be a northern lord or a son of a northern lord. Just a "normal" guy.

EDIT: I have no evidence to support a theory that Sansa will be head of House Stark at the end. It's just how I imagine it - Arya survives but she isn't a ruler and she is also younger than Sansa, Bran probably survives but it is possible that he can't have children so he can't continue the bloodline and I don't really see him staying in "civilization", Rickon is dead, Robb is dead, Jon lives but he isn't a son of Ned and I  expect him to either die, either become the king of Westeros, or go back to the Wall (this is the option I prefer), and somehow I also expect him to stay alone and mourn Ygritte forever. Thus only Sansa can continue the bloodline. Just wild speculations of course. :)

Edited by Nerevanin

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12 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

Hm... no one special, I guess. I imagine it as a flash forward and Sansa as lady of Winterfell holding her 1st (2nd, 3rd....) child while her husband would be a northern lord or a son of a northern lord. Just a "normal" guy.

EDIT: I have no evidence to support a theory that Sansa will be head of House Stark at the end. It's just how I imagine it - Arya survives but she isn't a ruler and she is also younger than Sansa, Bran probably survives but it is possible that he can't have children so he can't continue the bloodline and I don't really see him staying in "civilization", Rickon is dead, Robb is dead, Jon lives but he isn't a son of Ned and I  expect him to either die, either become the king of Westeros, or go back to the Wall (this is the option I prefer), and somehow I also expect him to stay alone and mourn Ygritte forever. Thus only Sansa can continue the bloodline. Just wild speculations of course. :)

Yes I think I agree with most of this. Except Jon, I would like to see him happy at the end - probably an unpopular opinion on here but I would. I don't know this will happen obviously but its what Id like. It will be interesting to see how the books go re his end vs show. I feel like D&D will push him and Dany together.

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Posted (edited)

There is enough time for another romance or two. Jon will have another romance and Sansa will marry again. Alliances are important, Dany is on the market for a Westerosi husband as she did leave her lover at home for that very reason.

Thor Odinson spelled out some of my observations plus a whole boatload more. Very convincing. If he turns out to be wrong then the writers of the show are blind to what they have established. I'm arguing with myself on this matter. But it makes the most sense for the rules of this world for Jon and Sansa to wind up together.  It sort of makes sense that Jon will have a chance at Auntie Dany, but Jon seems to nice for her coldness.

Sansa will not be alone, women like Sansa do not get to be alone in this type of world except when they are dead. As for all the Sansa hating, my Gods she is still a girl who has been sold into marriages, tormented, beaten and held prisoner. Life has not gone in a way that Sansa knew how to deal with. She will either figure it out or die trying. She has power and the ability to self determine for the first time in her life. She lives in a world where the only powerful women are power hungry and ruthless. Sansa hasn't figured out if she will be ruthless or not yet. Only the evil prosper.

Edited by Stark_in_Winterfell
I'm arguing with myself!

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