Gala Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, El Guapo said: Yes she has. You need to re-read her chapters. Barristan only told her about "there was no fondness" between Aerys and his wife and that all. Stories about Rhaegar are nice, since he was a nice guy (except for being responsible for the Rebellion). But when Barristan tries to tell her real truth about her father she refuses and even snaps at him (all that Usurper's dogs and stuff), although, she asks him to tell her someday, so no, she didn't start. She prefers fairy tales to justify her anger at people who rebelled - it is easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, Gala said: Barristan only told her about "there was no fondness" between Aerys and his wife and that all. Stories about Rhaegar are nice, since he was a nice guy (except for being responsible for the Rebellion). But when Barristan tries to tell her real truth about her father she refuses and even snaps at him (all that Usurper's dogs and stuff), although, she asks him to tell her someday, so no, she didn't start. She prefers fairy tales to justify her anger at people who rebelled - it is easier. She doesn't know the specifics but she does ask Barristan to tell her everything about him the good and the bad. She also questions herself several times in the book whether she has the "Taint" of madness as well. So yeah, she knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 38 minutes ago, El Guapo said: She doesn't know the specifics but she does ask Barristan to tell her everything about him the good and the bad. She also questions herself several times in the book whether she has the "Taint" of madness as well. So yeah, she knows. And yet she hasn't heard the specific stories why her father was called mad! She asked Barristan to tell someday, but refused to listen "now" anyway. She surely guessed that her father wasn't an angel, but 'Taint' idea came from the saying about Targ "when a Targ is born, the Gods toss a coin...". Barristan diplomatically explained, but from her inner dialogue we know that she didn't accept it really, although, it concerns her. She thinks about absolutely different type of madness - like seeing things and that. She actually doesn't know how murderous her father was, or it seems she doesn't know the whole history of her family in general very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styl7 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Daenerys grew up alone with Viserys. He told her everything she knew.. She learned that her the Mad King concept was a lie from the Userper and his friends. She hated Robert, she hated all those who tried to overthrow her father.. And she should.. If those men found her or her brother they would kill them.. She was a princess and she spend all her youth growing up in a foreign land with her brother... At first they were people who welcome the young royal kids in their home.. But as the time passed fewer and fewer would help those kids.. They spend their life as children going from city to city, avoiding the people of the Userper who wanted them dead.. They sold all of their possessions, and last their Mother's Crown to survive.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, Styl7 said: Daenerys grew up alone with Viserys. He told her everything she knew.. She learned that her the Mad King concept was a lie from the Userper and his friends. She hated Robert, she hated all those who tried to overthrow her father.. And she should.. If those men found her or her brother they would kill them.. She was a princess and she spend all her youth growing up in a foreign land with her brother... At first they were people who welcome the young royal kids in their home.. But as the time passed fewer and fewer would help those kids.. They spend their life as children going from city to city, avoiding the people of the Userper who wanted them dead.. They sold all of their possessions, and last their Mother's Crown to survive.. All this is understandable and obvious. No less than Starks have full right to hate Aerys and his family. I would and it is totally justified from their point of view. Nevertheless, Ned wouldn't kill them, definitely. As Barristan actually told Dany. Robert -yes, he hated the Targs. If it wasn't the Lannisters who sacked the King's Landing, but Ned - Elia and her kids would still be alive. If it was possible, I would bet on that. He even was outraged by their murder - from that I conclude that Ned wasn't against Aegon being the successor to the throne. I presume, all he wanted was to get his family back and stop the war. I am not arguing about her lack of knowledge, rather her reluctance to know the truth, because then she would be forced to look at that whole rebellion thing from another perspective, but she doesn't like to be wrong, thus, she doesn't want to learn - Usurper, Lannisters and Starks are all the same to her, which is nonsense. For example, Jon prefers to hear harsh truth rather than sweet lies and he learns great deal from that. Actually, during the Rebellion only 3 major houses suffered most - Targs (almost the whole family), Martells (4 family member, including Elia's kids) and Starks (3 family members). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styl7 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 24 minutes ago, Gala said: All this is understandable and obvious. No less than Starks have full right to hate Aerys and his family. I would and it is totally justified from their point of view. Nevertheless, Ned wouldn't kill them, definitely. As Barristan actually told Dany. Robert -yes, he hated the Targs. If it wasn't the Lannisters who sacked the King's Landing, but Ned - Elia and her kids would still be alive. If it was possible, I would bet on that. He even was outraged by their murder - from that I conclude that Ned wasn't against Aegon being the successor to the throne. I presume, all he wanted was to get his family back and stop the war. I am not arguing about her lack of knowledge, rather her reluctance to know the truth, because then she would be forced to look at that whole rebellion thing from another perspective, but she doesn't like to be wrong, thus, she doesn't want to learn - Usurper, Lannisters and Starks are all the same to her, which is nonsense. For example, Jon prefers to hear harsh truth rather than sweet lies and he learns great deal from that. Actually, during the Rebellion only 3 major houses suffered most - Targs (almost the whole family), Martells (4 family member, including Elia's kids) and Starks (3 family members). I had Ned in mind too.. Ned wouldn't let children be slaughtered.. But Tywin, Robert and many others would.. Daenerys grew up and learned to blame the Userper for the fate of her and her house. She ndidnt know that Aerys was mad, she probably thought that her father was a good man. Even Viserys who was a bit older didn't know much about his father madness.. His mother Rhaella protected him from his madness,that was one of the reasons they went in Dragonstone. Accepting the truth, accepting that everything she ever believied is a lie is not easy.. She was just a teenager.. She asked for the truth from Barristan, she heard it, but she was not ready to accept it..she understood deep inside her, but she needed time. In this season we saw that time make her accept the truth.She said that she know who her father was.. She even apologized about the crimes Aerys committed to the Starks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Gala said: That's a lie! She was forced to demonise him, because people told her what her father was over and over and over again and they still tel l- Varys, Jon. In the books she hasn't even started to listen to people on this matter. Barristan either softens the stories about her family or she stops him when he tries. Jorah feeds her fairytales, not real stories, from the day one he is a flatterer. Forced? Did someone put a gun to her head? Her character if anything is one that has a lot to do with being driven by will. Dany was forced to do was a few things. Marrying Drogo reminded and definitely played a part in her reasoning behind banishing slavery. Furthermore, her brother if anything throughout her entire child live probably influenced her decision even more. Her brother probably influenced her to believe many things like her father father was a victim of Robert. so not she was not forced to demonized anyone, especially not her father or slavery. Her viewpoints are influenced by the stories her advisors have told her, in both books and tv show. Her decision to crusify the slave master does not make her evil or mad. It's called justice. Hell, you can argue what you want but it was in no way her being "mad". Did she burn the city down? Did she continue to kill masters? No! She has legislation that would have affected the majority of people in a positive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 9 hours ago, xjlxking said: Forced? Did someone put a gun to her head? Her character if anything is one that has a lot to do with being driven by will. Dany was forced to do was a few things. Marrying Drogo reminded and definitely played a part in her reasoning behind banishing slavery. Furthermore, her brother if anything throughout her entire child live probably influenced her decision even more. Her brother probably influenced her to believe many things like her father father was a victim of Robert. so not she was not forced to demonized anyone, especially not her father or slavery. Her viewpoints are influenced by the stories her advisors have told her, in both books and tv show. Her decision to crusify the slave master does not make her evil or mad. It's called justice. Hell, you can argue what you want but it was in no way her being "mad". Did she burn the city down? Did she continue to kill masters? No! She has legislation that would have affected the majority of people in a positive way. There is no need to be snappy, really. Maybe forced is a strong word, let's say she was made to demonise her father after so many people had to tell her what he was and only after that she believed. She called even Barristan a liar at first - "Usurper's lies". Everything else in your post should not be even addressed to me, since I do not consider Dany mad - arrogant and power hungry - yes, but not mad. Slavery is ugly business, so she dealt with it in an ugly way. My whole point was that being so wilful, great and everything else what her fans see in her, she does not want to learn at all, because that would mean that you need to accept things and look at your whole life from another perspective, for now (in the books) she is not capable of that yet. In the show - I have mixed feelings - she seems to accept, but still is arrogant (I mean the whole "bend the knee" and "my birthright" to a member of a family, whose family members her own father slaughtered brutally) and considers herself and her dragons immortal (which is frankly stupid, but she does the same in the books). FYI: Dany is in my list of favourite characters, but nowhere in the top, I am afraid. Although, I admire some of her characteristics. You probably like her very much, thus, try to justify everything - the thing I would do for Davos, Brienne, Ned or Jon, for example, so I totally understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styl7 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Gala said: There is no need to be snappy, really. Maybe forced is a strong word, let's say she was made to demonise her father after so many people had to tell her what he was and only after that she believed. She called even Barristan a liar at first - "Usurper's lies". Everything else in your post should not be even addressed to me, since I do not consider Dany mad - arrogant and power hungry - yes, but not mad. Slavery is ugly business, so she dealt with it in an ugly way. My whole point was that being so wilful, great and everything else what her fans see in her, she does not want to learn at all, because that would mean that you need to accept things and look at your whole life from another perspective, for now (in the books) she is not capable of that yet. In the show - I have mixed feelings - she seems to accept, but still is arrogant (I mean the whole "bend the knee" and "my birthright" to a member of a family, whose family members her own father slaughtered brutally) and considers herself and her dragons immortal (which is frankly stupid, but she does the same in the books). FYI: Dany is in my list of favourite characters, but nowhere in the top, I am afraid. Although, I admire some of her characteristics. You probably like her very much, thus, try to justify everything - the thing I would do for Davos, Brienne, Ned or Jon, for example, so I totally understand. How and when did she consider her and her dragons immortal? She didn't call Barristan a liar, she said that "Mad king" was the Userper lie.. Because that's what she knew.. No one told her the truth.. Even Jorah didn't tell her the truth.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Styl7 said: How and when did she consider her and her dragons immortal? She didn't call Barristan a liar, she said that "Mad king" was the Userper lie.. Because that's what she knew.. No one told her the truth.. Even Jorah didn't tell her the truth.. 1) Read the books - she actually thinks that she is invincible - fire, diseases... She takes the dragons for granted, well, until the pit she did. 2) So saying that he supposedly repeats Usurper's lies is not calling him a liar?! That was my point- she didn't believe it, because her brother was crazy idiot (don't argue, he really was) and Jorah only flattered her (we all know why). Barristan was the first to tell her the truth, and she didn't want to hear it. By the way, earlier you wrote that she was just a teenager and that she was not ready... but surely was ready to crucify and burn people alive, how convenient to be a teenager when it suits and have such a big responsibility as freed slaves and dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Gala said: There is no need to be snappy, really. Maybe forced is a strong word, let's say she was made to demonise her father after so many people had to tell her what he was and only after that she believed. She called even Barristan a liar at first - "Usurper's lies". Everything else in your post should not be even addressed to me, since I do not consider Dany mad - arrogant and power hungry - yes, but not mad. Slavery is ugly business, so she dealt with it in an ugly way. My whole point was that being so wilful, great and everything else what her fans see in her, she does not want to learn at all, because that would mean that you need to accept things and look at your whole life from another perspective, for now (in the books) she is not capable of that yet. In the show - I have mixed feelings - she seems to accept, but still is arrogant (I mean the whole "bend the knee" and "my birthright" to a member of a family, whose family members her own father slaughtered brutally) and considers herself and her dragons immortal (which is frankly stupid, but she does the same in the books). FYI: Dany is in my list of favourite characters, but nowhere in the top, I am afraid. Although, I admire some of her characteristics. You probably like her very much, thus, try to justify everything - the thing I would do for Davos, Brienne, Ned or Jon, for example, so I totally understand. No, I actually don't like Dany as a characters. Despite both the show and books showing that she had to overcome many things, it feels like her accomplishments far exceed that. Unlike other characters, Tyrion, Jon, she just feels more gifted. Anyways, can you specify who influenced her to demonized her father? Let's not forget she lived with her brother and viewed him as the rightful king. Most of her life she was told things like how the common people pray for their return. How the usurper was a mad man..etc. it's only when the series starts and dany has aged (book she was way younger) that she starts to see other point of view. Even then, the people who demonized her father, never demonized her brother. Most her beliefs were changed because the people telling her this were smarter and wiser than the person she got most of her information from (her brother) As far as being power hungry and arrogant, yes, she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styl7 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 58 minutes ago, xjlxking said: No, I actually don't like Dany as a characters. Despite both the show and books showing that she had to overcome many things, it feels like her accomplishments far exceed that. Unlike other characters, Tyrion, Jon, she just feels more gifted. Anyways, can you specify who influenced her to demonized her father? Let's not forget she lived with her brother and viewed him as the rightful king. Most of her life she was told things like how the common people pray for their return. How the usurper was a mad man..etc. it's only when the series starts and dany has aged (book she was way younger) that she starts to see other point of view. Even then, the people who demonized her father, never demonized her brother. Most her beliefs were changed because the people telling her this were smarter and wiser than the person she got most of her information from (her brother) As far as being power hungry and arrogant, yes, she is. Do you think that she want the throne? Do you think she wanted to go back in Mereen to rule? (The questions are for the books) She thinks it's her duty to do so.. She didn't want any of this.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallam Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 On 8/8/2017 at 2:40 PM, El Guapo said: There is only one Mad Queen in this story and her name is Cersei. For chrissakes they even had her getting aroused at the torture of Ellaria so much so that she ahd to have sex with Jamie. There was another monarch who did that his name was Aerys. She also poisoned a young woman to die in front of her mother and chaining her up so that the mother couldn't touch her to try and save her. I seem to recall another monarch doing something similar to a father and son. This. I have thought that book Cersei and Jamie will turn out to be secret Targs by Aerys (but not Tyrion). Looks to me like Roberts rebellion was started by Tywin whispering in people's ears the same way that Littlefinger did. his motive being that he was infertile, his children being by Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 3 hours ago, xjlxking said: No, I actually don't like Dany as a characters. Despite both the show and books showing that she had to overcome many things, it feels like her accomplishments far exceed that. Unlike other characters, Tyrion, Jon, she just feels more gifted. Anyways, can you specify who influenced her to demonized her father? Let's not forget she lived with her brother and viewed him as the rightful king. Most of her life she was told things like how the common people pray for their return. How the usurper was a mad man..etc. it's only when the series starts and dany has aged (book she was way younger) that she starts to see other point of view. Even then, the people who demonized her father, never demonized her brother. Most her beliefs were changed because the people telling her this were smarter and wiser than the person she got most of her information from (her brother) As far as being power hungry and arrogant, yes, she is. In the books - no one did influence her. No one hasn't even told her the truth yet. In the show - Barristan, Tyrion, Varys, Jon...all called him the Mad King to her face and all explained why they called him that- something I do like about the show, by the way. I really do not see the point of this conversation. You do not like the word "demonise" it seems. May be there is some sort of misunderstanding. I understand that Dany has a biased attitude due to her upbringing, nonetheless, I still see her as unwilling to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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