What's the deal with Ice? Functional or ceremonial?

[Ser Petyr Parker]

15 minutes ago, Ser Alasdair the Bard said:

Did Ned have Ice at the ToJ?

Not in the show, and I don't think we've had enough description of it in the books to know. It seems likely that it would have been available, even if not used. By the time of the ToJ, King's Landing had already been taken and Ned was of course there, so could have retrieved it even if Rickard Stark took it south with him.

We could also look at Randyll Tarly to get some idea of how people might use such a sword in Westeros. His sword, Heartsbane, is Valyrian steel and seems similar in size to Ice. There are several references to him wearing the sword on his back or carrying it with him when there's no reason to expect a fight (e.g. in Renly's camp, at Maidenpool when dispensing "justice"). But from passing references it does sound as if he actually fights with it too. He's a "no nonsense" type who doesn't come across as someone who would waste his time with an ineffective weapon. But at the same time, House Tarly is not exactly House Stark. Randyll Tarly seems a bit insecure and quite concerned by how he's perceived by others (e.g. his excessive shame over Sam, especially when he forbids Sam to eat apples in Lord Redwyne's castle after a fool makes a joke). Ned is less insecure and concerned with appearing to be a great house with an impressive sword because everyone knows that House Stark is a great house, and has been for thousands of years. I can see the Starks preferring their own personal swords and using Ice more ceremonially, especially in Ned's case, as he wouldn't have grown up or trained expecting to own it.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

40 minutes ago, Ser Alasdair the Bard said:

I wish I had my books so I could check the ToJ dream etc. I am not certain he had Ice with him but don't hold me to it.

Here's the text (spoilered as it's a bit long):

Spoiler

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his whiteenameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

"When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

 

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Not in the show, and I don't think we've had enough description of it in the books to know. It seems likely that it would have been available, even if not used. By the time of the ToJ, King's Landing had already been taken and Ned was of course there, so could have retrieved it even if Rickard Stark took it south with him.

If Ser Arthur Dayne was defending the ToJ, he most definitely would have been carrying 'Dawn', which leads me to believe the chances are high that Ned had retrieved Ice from King's Landing and used it to fight Dayne. It may well have been the first time Ned actually fought using Ice, which is interesting.

2 minutes ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

We could also look at Randyll Tarly to get some idea of how people might use such a sword in Westeros. His sword, Heartsbane, is Valyrian steel and seems similar in size to Ice. There are several references to him wearing the sword on his back or carrying it with him when there's no reason to expect a fight (e.g. in Renly's camp, at Maidenpool when dispensing "justice"). But from passing references it does sound as if he actually fights with it too. He's a "no nonsense" type who doesn't come across as someone who would waste his time with an ineffective weapon. But at the same time, House Tarly is not exactly House Stark. Randyll Tarly seems a bit insecure and quite concerned by how he's perceived by others (e.g. his excessive shame over Sam, especially when he forbids Sam to eat apples in Lord Redwyne's castle after a fool makes a joke). Ned is less insecure and concerned with appearing to be a great house with an impressive sword because everyone knows that House Stark is a great house, and has been for thousands of years. I can see the Starks preferring their own personal swords and using Ice more ceremonially, especially in Ned's case, as he wouldn't have grown up or trained expecting to own it.

I agree. I'd say that Ned treated Ice as a weapon that there was a time and a place to use, as opposed to bringing it out at any opportunity. I really can't imagine the idea that if Ned would be charging someone down on horse, say, that he would be swinging Ice. Despite it being a lot lighter than a regular greatsword of the same size due to its Valyrian steel, I still think it would be difficult to wield with one hand while trying to keep yourself on horse. That leads me to believe it was most likely used in single combat or a fight on ground and that he had a separate sword that he used more often.

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Here's the text (spoilered as it's a bit long):

  Hide contents

 

 

Now that I see the passage it does make me doubt Ice's presence. I feel that since such emphasis was put upon the unsheathing of Dawn, it would be very unlike GRRM not to mention Ned raising Ice against Dawn.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Now that I see the passage it does make me doubt Ice's presence. I feel that since such emphasis was put upon the unsheathing of Dawn, it would be very unlike GRRM not to mention Ned raising Ice against Dawn.

Also, as you rightly mention, it would be woefully impractical on horseback.

God that scene is so simple yet so beautifully written. 

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

If Ser Arthur Dayne was defending the ToJ, he most definitely would have been carrying 'Dawn', which leads me to believe the chances are high that Ned had retrieved Ice from King's Landing and used it to fight Dayne. It may well have been the first time Ned actually fought using Ice, which is interesting.

I agree. I'd say that Ned treated Ice as a weapon that there was a time and a place to use, as opposed to bringing it out at any opportunity. I really can't imagine the idea that if Ned would be charging someone down on horse, say, that he would be swinging Ice. Despite it being a lot lighter than a regular greatsword of the same size due to its Valyrian steel, I still think it would be difficult to wield with one hand while trying to keep yourself on horse. That leads me to believe it was most likely used in single combat or a fight on ground and that he had a separate sword that he used more often.

We know he had Dawn because Ned returned the sword with Dayne's body to his family (IIRC).

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

1 hour ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Here's the text (spoilered as it's a bit long):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Thanks!

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Ser Alasdair the Bard said:

Nonetheless, I take it noone has found any references to Ned's preferred armour? We know for example Robert favoured full plate and a warhammer. I just feel somewhat let down by the show's costumes. I mean, could the Warden of the North really only afford one coat of plates sans mail? I mean, Robb goes to battle with a coat of plates and a tiny gorget in the show. 

I have always read George's Westeros as late 14th/early 15th century in terms of armour and melee weapons (obviously firearms aren't a thing). 

I don't think Ned wears any armour during the books that we know off, so no I don't think anyone will find any references to it. But I imagine he'd just wear a higher quality of what the northmen wear, that is to say fur and leathers with mail underneath. Maybe as a Stark Ned would have some plate armour pieces like greaves, gauntlets, gorget's and a half helm. With that in mind, I actually like the show's costume's because those coat of plates seem like they'd be better than furs

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

33 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

I don't think Ned wears any armour during the books that we know off, so no I don't think anyone will find any references to it. But I imagine he'd just wear a higher quality of what the northmen wear, that is to say fur and leathers with mail underneath. Maybe as a Stark Ned would have some plate armour pieces like greaves, gauntlets, gorget's and a half helm. With that in mind, I actually like the show's costume's because those coat of plates seem like they'd be better than furs

As a great Lord why would you suppose he'd use inferior armour? We know full plate is available in Westeros. Medieval lords didn't use inferior armour just because it wasn't common where they lived. There is a reason Milanese armourers are remembered specifically. They sold armour to mercenaries and knights who didn't have the expertise. Why would Westeros be any different.

Don't want to insult your knowledge either but "leathers"? We know the North have heavy horse equivalent to southern Knights. How could they hope to be equivalent if even their Lord wears inferior protection.

Coat of plates like the Starks if the show wear aren't nearly as effective as plate. Also, an arming coat like that would be common in the 11th century while it seems all the armies South of the neck are rocking 14th to 15th century style plate.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

This is a theory on ice 

 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

"They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor." Cat 7 GoT

Only breastplate and mail, I would say full plate is a good guess

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

"They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor." Cat 7 GoT

Only breastplate and mail, I would say full plate is a good guess

Always good for logic to prevail. I mean, it just wouldn't make sense for Stark lords and their families to go into combat with inferior armour. This isn't to say they wouldn't wear jack or brigandine day to day.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Both .

[Stormourne]

I was sad when they melted down Ice. But it makes sense, George wants to push Longclaw into being the future sword of the Starks