Pigeon Pie

Show!Rhaegar: You're Not Really Meant to Look That Deeply into Him.

30 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, princess_snow said:

Exceptionally well said RhaenysB.

I'm not hearing any bitching over the fact Robert B was possibly going to divorce/annul Cersei for Margery.

Also its interesting to note that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married in Dorne, she was kept hidden in Dorne and protected by Ser Arthur Dayne - a Dornish man. 

We really have no other info about how Elia felt about all of this tho do we ?   

You never hear any "bitching" over that because it never actually happened lol, it was just something that Renly was plotting and never actually saw the light. (Oh and by the way, isn't this a book-only thing? Isn't this the forum where we discuss the show? And this post is about show!Rhaegar, so your point about comparing show!Rhaegar's actions to something that never even took place in the books is invalid? I'm just saying)

Yeah, let me try to imagine how Elia, the daughter of a great house, felt being set aside by her husband (and thereby humiliated in front of the entire country) basically telling everyone that she isn't good enough to be his wife anymore because she isn't as healthy as Lyanna Stark, after she had risked her life to secure him a male heir, with the very real possibility that said male heir and his sister could become bastards now, and they're all left on an island that is too close for comfort to her husband's crazy father who thinks they're all conspiring against him. 

I'm sure she felt positively? You?

And Rhaegar married Lyanna in Dorne because Dorne could provide the most remote and secure location, i.e. a tower in the middle of the desert, not because Elia's family was soooo welcoming of a decision that humiliates them and their daughter. And Arthur would have gone with Rhaegar anywhere, he's the KG in charge of guarding him. 

(and btw, I'm not the only one "bitching", anyone who doesn't just eat up every stupid decision that the showmakers make and accepts it as entirely logically possible has been angry about this decision, including Elio and Linda, see the link I posted above)

Edited by Pigeon Pie

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12 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

You never hear any "bitching" over that because it never actually happened lol, it was just something that Renly was plotting and never actually saw the light. (Oh and by the way, isn't this a book-only thing? Isn't this the forum where we discuss the show? And this post is about show!Rhaegar, so your point about comparing show!Rhaegar's actions to something that never even took place in the books is invalid? I'm just saying)

Yeah, let me try to imagine how Elia, the daughter of a great house, felt being set aside by her husband (and thereby humiliated in front of the entire country) basically telling everyone that she isn't good enough to be his wife anymore because she isn't as healthy as Lyanna Stark, after she had risked her life to secure him a male heir, with the very real possibility that said male heir and his sister could become bastards now, and they're all left on an island that is too close for comfort to her husband's crazy father who thinks they're all conspiring against him. 

I'm sure she felt positively? You?

And Rhaegar married Lyanna in Dorne because Dorne could provide the most remote and secure location, i.e. a tower in the middle of the desert, not because Elia's family was soooo welcoming of a decision that humiliates them and their daughter. And Arthur would have gone with Rhaegar anywhere, he's the KG in charge of guarding him. 

(and btw, I'm not the only one "bitching", anyone who doesn't just eat up every stupid decision that the showmakers make and accepts it as entirely logically possible has been angry about this decision, including Elio and Linda, see the link I posted above)

Even though I'm pretty sure this will be handled differently in the books, I think people's overreactions to the annulment are pretty silly.

In the books, most likely it'll turn out to be a bigamous marriage rather than an annulment and a marriage. Or maybe there will be a will from Rhaegar naming Jon his heir or something. Whatever. Let's compare.

You're angry on behalf of poor show!Elia that nasty show!Rhaegar set her aside and abandoned her with his crazy dad just because she couldn't produce another son. OK, that's fair.

But do you think book!Elia would be ecstatic over the fact that book!Rhaegar abandoned her with his crazy dad and went off and got a second wife because she couldn't produce another son? It's almost the same thing emotionally and pragmatically.

Sure, she still gets to call herself Princess instead of being given some lesser Diana-style title, and she can try to console herself with the fact that there's a long tradition of Targaryen bigamy so she always knew this might happen, but none of that changes the fact that her husband decided she was useless and went off to find a better wife who could give him a son.

The show changed it from bigamy to annulment because, for casual viewers, it'll be easier to understand, because it's something historical European monarchs did a lot more often. That may seem like a stupid difference when they could have easily just thrown in a couple scenes to remind us of the Targaryen bigamy tradition, but it's really not that big a difference in any practical narrative sense, so it's not worth getting so worked up over.

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16 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

Yes, that's (or used to be though probably still is) a huge chunk of the whole R+L debate. Why would the Dornish cooperate? There's a "theory" or idea or not sure what's the right term here that Elia was on board with the whole PTWP prophecy obsession and helped Rhaegar get the third head of the dragon in any way should, and gave her blessing that's rhagear kidnap Lyanna And rape and hold her hostage in Dorne just so there's a third baby. Yeah sure... my take is that Elia knew about the prophecy and she liked Rhaegar enough to give her blessing to the Lyanna business (and the annulment - if we believe the show). Liked and not loved because the latter is exactly why she would sign up for R+L. And if she didn't know and didn't give her blessing I don't see why Rhaegar would be stupid enough to set up everything in Dorne or why Oberyn wouldn't march up there and tear down his tower of joy (this is of course contradicted by the show in which Oberyn has some level of resentment for Rhaegar - I'm actually not sure that it was the same in the books). As for Arthur Dayne, he was best pals with Rhaegar so I can see him helping even if Elia didn't know/agree. 

No. we know very little about Elia and close to nothing about her relationship with Rhaegar. Elia was intelligent, nice and they were" fond of "each other is all I think. And her frail health which is why it was said that she couldn't have another baby after Aegon. 

Yeah Im inclined to believe that too; she liked him and new about the PTWP prophesy. I'm not sure if this applies to both show and books, but I think Oberyn stated : he loved Elia like Jaime loves Cersei.

I could be wrong but it could be a little nod that all was not as it seemed with Oberyn and Elia, maybe they were lovers too ? Who knows. Just find it interesting that he phrased it that way. 

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13 hours ago, Pigeon Pie said:

You never hear any "bitching" over that because it never actually happened lol, it was just something that Renly was plotting and never actually saw the light. (Oh and by the way, isn't this a book-only thing? Isn't this the forum where we discuss the show? And this post is about show!Rhaegar, so your point about comparing show!Rhaegar's actions to something that never even took place in the books is invalid? I'm just saying)

Yeah, let me try to imagine how Elia, the daughter of a great house, felt being set aside by her husband (and thereby humiliated in front of the entire country) basically telling everyone that she isn't good enough to be his wife anymore because she isn't as healthy as Lyanna Stark, after she had risked her life to secure him a male heir, with the very real possibility that said male heir and his sister could become bastards now, and they're all left on an island that is too close for comfort to her husband's crazy father who thinks they're all conspiring against him. 

I'm sure she felt positively? You?

And Rhaegar married Lyanna in Dorne because Dorne could provide the most remote and secure location, i.e. a tower in the middle of the desert, not because Elia's family was soooo welcoming of a decision that humiliates them and their daughter. And Arthur would have gone with Rhaegar anywhere, he's the KG in charge of guarding him. 

(and btw, I'm not the only one "bitching", anyone who doesn't just eat up every stupid decision that the showmakers make and accepts it as entirely logically possible has been angry about this decision, including Elio and Linda, see the link I posted above)

Woah. I wasn't actually having a go, it was just my wording. A lot of ppl complain about this annulment. I don't think it was actually just a book thing, I'm fairly certain Jaime and Cersei had a conversation about this in S1 before Bran is exposed spying on them.

I have no response to your comments about how Elia felt. I have no idea how she felt no one does. I'm not willing to speculate because we are not given enough information about her are we ?

Yeah I understand why he married her in Dorne. Maybe that tells us that Elia had no issue with this marriage if he married her in her homeland?

I agree with @falcotron above. Thanks for that reply you said everything I wanted to say.    

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, princess_snow said:

Yeah Im inclined to believe that too; she liked him and new about the PTWP prophesy. I'm not sure if this applies to both show and books, but I think Oberyn stated : he loved Elia like Jaime loves Cersei.

I could be wrong but it could be a little nod that all was not as it seemed with Oberyn and Elia, maybe they were lovers too ? Who knows. Just find it interesting that he phrased it that way. 

That's one possibility. though if everybody is in love with their sibling the whole issue kinda loses its mojo and the occurrence of incest gets a little over- represented.

But it's interesting why this isn't theorized and debated a lot. I guess because we know so little about Elia. 

Edited by RhaenysB

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Not really meant to look deeply into anyone, not in any show, book, everywhere in life and world.

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9 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

But it's interesting why this isn't theorized and debated a lot. I guess because we know so little about Elia. 

People always want a complete story, because that's the way our minds work, so we try to build something up around the skeleton we're given, no matter how bare it is, if there's anything even slightly interesting.

But this series has reminded us time and again how misleading that can be. Think about all the conflicting PoVs we had on Rhaegar. Trying to build a picture from just one of those would lead us to something easy to believe, but completely wrong. So the picture we build of Elia is likely pretty wrong as well.

So, if people are declining to debate things like this about her, I think we're (maybe accidentally) being smart for once. :)

Of course I've wandered off into the books here, but on TV, we know even less than in the books, so…

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Eh, in my opinion, the TV show has gone off the rails for other characters who actually get screentime and performers who show their motivations and emotions and stuff. No surprise Rhaegar gets the shaft, especially since the writers kinda forgot about him for a few seasons. Show Rhaegar isn't book Rhaegar, so I'll wait for the real thing.

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9 hours ago, falcotron said:

People always want a complete story, because that's the way our minds work, so we try to build something up around the skeleton we're given, no matter how bare it is, if there's anything even slightly interesting.

But this series has reminded us time and again how misleading that can be. Think about all the conflicting PoVs we had on Rhaegar. Trying to build a picture from just one of those would lead us to something easy to believe, but completely wrong. So the picture we build of Elia is likely pretty wrong as well.

So, if people are declining to debate things like this about her, I think we're (maybe accidentally) being smart for once. :)

Of course I've wandered off into the books here, but on TV, we know even less than in the books, so…

Nah, I'm not saying we should have a thread for bloodshed over the question whether Elia loved another too or loved Rhaegar. You're right, that's definitely not something we need. It's enough that we have those threads about Rhaegar. 

I'm just surprised we don't have it because there are vast theories for less important and less interesting points of the story too. (Though what's interesting to whom is very relative)

 

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On 8/15/2017 at 7:48 PM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Since he needed more children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna as his new wife because he probably loved her. That's why we are told the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, to know how they fell in love.

Also because a milkmaid or so on wouldn't be an acceptable choice of wife. He would want all three children to be legitimate. Which is why, in the books, he would most likely have married Lyanna without annulling his marriage to Elia, drawing on the precedent of polygamous Targaryens in the past.

On 8/15/2017 at 7:48 PM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

And yes, his marriage will be annuled in the books as well, that's why George talks about Elia's health here and there. That's the only reason Rhaegar could give to annul his marriage and have a legitimate child with Lyanna.

Also, George himself talked with a fan about Sansa having an annulment in her marriage with Tyrion back in 2000(it was mentioned on Reddid yesterday i think), and George said that any of the partners can annul the marriage, both Sansa and Tyrion.

Those where George R.R. Martin's own words, you clearly don't need to be a king to annul a marriage.

That is only because Sansa and Tyrion's marriage was unconsummated. You need a pretext to annul a marriage. While Elia now being barren would be the closest to a reasonable reason Rhaegar could come up with, it's still not really one. He can't claim to "need" more children for any political reason that Westeros would understand. He and Elia already had two. Annulment is for marriages that fail to produce them.

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