Quaithe = Melisandre?

[Olenna]

Just a thought. Whenever there's a masked character my knee-jerk reaction is to assume that he or she is actually an important character that we've already met or will meet later. Anyway, here are some facts worth considering:

1. Both purport to be from Asshai.

2. Quaithe is referred to as a "shadowbinder." I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like a good description of what Mel did to kill Renly and that castellan.

3. Both are sinister and communicate in cryptic pronouncements.

4. If I remember correctly (and I don't have the books with me to verify, alas) Quaithe disappears from Dany's life around the time Mel enters Stannis'.

Does anybody else think this is a possibility? If Mel and Quaithe are the same person, what does that say about her loyalties? She can't ultimately support both Dany and Stannis.

(I haven't read AFfC yet, so I'm probably missing some information about Mel...but it's fun to speculate.)

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

If I remember correctly (and I don't have the books with me to verify, alas) Quaithe disappears from Dany's life around the time Mel enters Stannis'.

Does anybody else think this is a possibility? If Mel and Quaithe are the same person, what does that say about her loyalties? She can't ultimately support both Dany and Stannis.

The timeline doesn't really work here. Melisandre has been at Dragonstone since some time in A Game of Thrones; Tywin refers to her in Tyrion's last chapter there--where she is idenitified as a "shadowbinder", btw--and by the time of the ACoK prologue, Melisandre is well-ensconced. Quaithe doesn't show up at Dany's doorstep for another month or two after the comet arrives, or in other words well after Melisandre is at Stannis' side.

[Paul H]

The time-line does not sync up between the books and POV's...

[Atreides]

I guess the next question is, that since the timeline means that Quaithe and Melisandre can't be the same unless they can teleport, are they in contact, possibly as part of a search for Azor Azai reborn?

[SFDanny]

My pure speculation is they are rivals.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

My pure speculation is they are rivals.

I had the same thought. I think your instinct is right; I'm sure there is a connection, but I've never like theories that assume that Melisandre is anything other than an honest fanatic.

[Errant Bard]

The same way there isn't only one Faceless Man, one mercenary, one septon, there isn't only one shadowbinder. We don't want superbeings in our ASOIAF, why always try to have one character do everything when it's simpler, better, and more probable to just have multiple people each doing something?

I'm convinced there is as much connection between Quaithe and Mel than there is between Thoros and Mirri Maz Dur, that is to say none.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The same way there isn't only one Faceless Man, one mercenary, one septon, there isn't only one shadowbinder. We don't want superbeings in our ASOIAF, why always try to have one character do everything when it's simpler, better, and more probable to just have multiple people each doing something?

I agree with that as far as it goes. However, doesn't it strike you as just a little strange that two shadowbinders from Asshai are out advising potential claimants to the position of Azor Ahai reborn? Surely the number of messiah-consultants cannot be so large that Melisandre and Quaithe would be wholly unaware of each other's efforts?

[Winter Is Coming Podcast]

I agree with that as far as it goes. However, doesn't it strike you as just a little strange that two shadowbinders from Asshai are out advising potential claimants to the position of Azor Ahai reborn? Surely the number of messiah-consultants cannot be so large that Melisandre and Quaithe would be wholly unaware of each other's efforts?

They may be aware of each other's efforts, at least to a certain extent. They do have several things in common, including a desire to find Azor Ahai reborn and help his/her rise to power. But it's hard to believe they are acting in concert, or that a conspiracy of any sort exists. The biggest trouble here is that we don't know much about Asshai, or how shadowbinders become shadowbinders. Is there a cult somewhere? A priesthood, or some Hogwarts-esque school? Without knowing these things, it's difficult to say whether or not Quaithe and Melisandre are aware of each other's existence, much less agendas. On top of all that, Quaithe seems much more...shall we say genuine? in her support of Dany. Mel gives me the impression of someone grasping for power, even to the point of actively working to make parts of the prophecy come true in the ways she wants them to. In that context, does she really believe Stannis is AA reborn, or is she just trying to make it look like he is so she can become the power behind his eventual throne?

[Errant Bard]

I agree with that as far as it goes. However, doesn't it strike you as just a little strange that two shadowbinders from Asshai are out advising potential claimants to the position of Azor Ahai reborn? Surely the number of messiah-consultants cannot be so large that Melisandre and Quaithe would be wholly unaware of each other's efforts?

It doesn't seem strange, considering what is moving them... visions and prophecies.

Agreed, as always I exagerated when I said Mel and Quaithe had no link, they obviously are both into Westeros prophecies and did study shadow magic. However, I don't think they are linked strongly beside that. We know R'hllor priests keep fires burning and perpetually gaze into it for visions. Thoros proves that such visions are real. Following that, why couldn't the temple send one of their agents fulfill these visions? Things happened because of visions and in turn visions showed things happening, classical loop.

Totally disconnected from that, we have Quaithe and her prophecies, that are older, more cryptic yet more accurrate than Mel's visions. Also a shadowbinder, like Marwin and Mirri Maz Durr, she doesn't worship R'hllor, she belongs apparently to another organisation.

When I consider that, I cannot help but think that there are many organisations in the world, whom members all wield magic, that all recieved a warning of things to come (or should have recieved, like the drowned god church through PAtchface), and that all responded to it accordingly, either by not really caring, like the undyings or the ghost of high heart, or by trying to actively participate, like the tree eyed crow(s) (who I don't think are gods), R'hllor church, Quaithe's organisation, arguably the Faceless Men (a common explanation as to why Jaqen was in KL), the Citadel (see: Marwyn the mage), or most obviously the crannogmen.

Surely all these organisations have contacts with the others, but it makes more sense, in my vision of things that none of them are really so uber-powerful that you can only see magic users/prophets as belonging to one of them and being rivals. I see Mel and Quaithe more like a good agent of the MI5 and a good agent of CIA... same line of work, same methods, different employers, different set of data. Rivals? maybe, but unlikely to have truly met yet, not until their investigation converges.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Isn't Quaithe from the shadowlands? Unlike Melisandre she has her face masked like the sorcerers from those magical shadowlands

[Guest Other-in-law]

Yes, Quaithe is from the Shadowlands, which is a slightly different place from Asshai (though they may be very near). I'm not sure that the masks are restricted to sorcerors, though. Dany saw masked and tattooed men from the Shadowlands at the Eastern Market in Vaes Dothrak, who were, presumably, merchants. Unless all shadowlanders are sorcerors?

As for Quaithe, she seems to have used a glass candle to communicate with Dany in her dreams back in aSoS when she was at sea, but that's not strictly shadowbinding as I see. That would be fire magic, or possibly blood magic, but where does shadowmancy come in to it? As far as her religion goes, have we really gotten any clear indication what it is, if anything?

[Tourmaline Dragon]

Quaithe and her prophecies, that are older, more cryptic yet more accurrate than Mel's visions.

Mel seems to be forcing things whereas Quaithe seems to be waiting and on the odd occasion counselling. For some reason I trust Quaithe but not Mel.

[Guest]

Slightly off topic, but do you think Azor Ahai reborn exists? I mean, in Martin's world, is someone who has this theory eventually going to be right about who it is? Or is it simply a prophecy that has no substance to it and is just a belief?

To draw a parallel, it's like the 2nd coming of Christ in our world. Some people believe this will happen, and others believe it's BS and just some old dogmatic beliefs.

In ASOIAF, I could see either being possible. We could learn that someon is AA reborn, or that no one is, or we could just not find out.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Yes, Quaithe is from the Shadowlands, which is a slightly different place from Asshai (though they may be very near). I'm not sure that the masks are restricted to sorcerors, though. Dany saw masked and tattooed men from the Shadowlands at the Eastern Market in Vaes Dothrak, who were, presumably, merchants. Unless all shadowlanders are sorcerors?

As for Quaithe, she seems to have used a glass candle to communicate with Dany in her dreams back in aSoS when she was at sea, but that's not strictly shadowbinding as I see. That would be fire magic, or possibly blood magic, but where does shadowmancy come in to it? As far as her religion goes, have we really gotten any clear indication what it is, if anything?

We don't know what Quaithe's religious beliefs are, if any. However, the appendix to A Feast for Crows (at least in the UK hardcover) refers to her as a "masked shadowbinder," and Jhogo refers to her as "the spawn of shadows."

[Guest Other-in-law]

Ok, I'm not impressed by what a yahoo like Jhogo thinks, but the appendix is conclusive enough for me. And it makes sense that a magic practitioner (which Quaithe clearly is) from the Shadowlands would know shadowbinding.

The exact nature of the relationship between the Asshai'i and the Shadowlanders has puzzled me for ages. They could be ancient enemies with clashing belief systems or they could be allies or have something like an overbearing colonial or imperialistic relationship.

[Ran]

Quiathe is Ashara Dayne.

It is known.

[Blackstone]

Melissandre is not an honest fanatic, she's a dishonest fanatic. Aemon explains that she must know that Stannis' Lightbringer is just a false glamour. I agree that she is trying to force things along, but it will end in tragedy and Stannis' death.

Personally, I think that's a shame, because Stannis is just the kind of man I'd want on my side in the war for the dawn (though not necessarily in charge). I would want someone who would never stop fighting, implacable, unrelenting when literally the world is at stake.

Quaithe is also trying to help things along with her counsel, but she is obviously less manipulative. She apparently also has access to a Valyrian Glass Candle, which is how she has been appearing to Dany in her dreams.

I'd be willing to believe that Quaithe and Melissandre are rivals in some way, except for the fact that I believe that Thoros is meant to be the counterpoint to Melissandre.

Personally, I can't really get behind Ashara as Quaithe, there doesn't seem to be any good cause for Ashara to quit Dorne, move to the Shadowlands and become a sorceress.

[Too Good To Be True]

I see them as part of the same organisation, simply because of the red theme. I can't verify this offhand, but didn't Quaithe have a red lacquer mask? And obviously Mel is all red. That's my angle on it, at least. Plus the fact that they come from the same(ish) place in the world.

[Errant Bard]

I can't verify this offhand, but didn't Quaithe have a red lacquer mask?

She did. Quote (also with fire power note):

"Beware," the woman in the red lacquer mask said.

"Of whom?"

"Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power."

However Quaithe introduces herself as being of the shadow, not of R'hllor cult. Major difference. Obviously she hasn't met captain Planet either, cold is power too, so is nature (weirwoods & al), or water/sea.