The Jon's Parentage Re-Read 2

[Shewoman]

Snake--the eyes weeping blood really is a strange detail. Hard to imagine how the roughest childbirth could lead to that, and I'm having trouble visualizing how or why someone would have injured her eyes. In his conscious memories of Lyanna's death, her eyes aren't mentioned. It's a dream, so it may be metaphorical. If she knew of her father's and brother's deaths and the role that her actions played in them, she would have been guilt-ridden. Perhaps the bleeding eyes are a symbol of her anguish???? Or maybe she was channeling Oedipus.

"Broken promises" don't all have to be to Lyanna. He took vows with Catelyn and, possibly, with Robert when they originally rebelled.

Do we know that Ser Jorah never met Rhaegar?

If something about Lyanna's disappearance and subsequent death involved dangerous information that Ned promised to keep secret--like a potential (even if illegitimate) male Targaryen heir, there would need to be an alternate version of events that kept that secret safe.

[Jon Targaryen]

Snake--the eyes weeping blood really is a strange detail. Hard to imagine how the roughest childbirth could lead to that, and I'm having trouble visualizing how or why someone would have injured her eyes. In his conscious memories of Lyanna's death, her eyes aren't mentioned. It's a dream, so it may be metaphorical. If she knew of her father's and brother's deaths and the role that her actions played in them, she would have been guilt-ridden. Perhaps the bleeding eyes are a symbol of her anguish???? Or maybe she was channeling Oedipus.

Do the eyes weeping blood come around the same time as the thoughts of broken promises? If so, maybe Lyanna sees how Ned is breaking his promise and weeps blood because of it.

Ned associates Lyanna with tears and blood in his dream. Is this all that wondrous? There are plenty of reasonable explanations. Tears for her sorrow for those she'd loved and who've been killed. Or tears for her regret and sorrow for the role she'd played in contributing to those deaths. Blood for her illness and/or impending death. Possibly for the childbirth she'd had. Or even for the potential consequences of this birth when her baby is a Targaryen.

Very good ideas.

I don't follow your reasoning. Ned sees three Kingsguards on his way to Robert and before he learns what has happened to Robert, and you take this as evidence that Ned talked to Lyanna before he fought the Kingsguards?

Briefly, I will go into what I think snake is saying. Ned sees each KG one at a time as he mounts the steps. He does not see all three in front of the door as the toj fever dream would indicate. So maybe there was something different about the actual toj event.

It's possible that Ned lied to Lyanna for love of her, perhaps to take her fear away as she lay dying. On the other hand, he also thinks "Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them".

Yes, maybe the lie was to tell Jon his parentage, if I can speculate.

So I would suggest that it makes more sense to think Ned lied for love of Lyanna but not to her when he made his promises. When Ned lied to Robert and Cat and Jon and all the world about Jon's parentage in order to protect him it would make a lot of sense.

This does make more sense.

What triggered Ned's memory of Lyanna here? The promise he'd to make to Robert? Robert making Ned the guardian of his children? Ned deceiving Robert about what he really wanted to do with regard to Joff? All of these?

I think the latter two. Those make sense. Who cares about eating a boar?

Ned _dreams_ of broken promises and blood. GRRM has made clear that dreams are not always literal. If you consider the situation Ned was in I would hardly be surprised if he would have had a nightmare about what would have happened if he would have broken his promises to Lyanna, would either have revealed Jon as Rhaegar's son or allowed Targaryen loyalists to bring him up for example. One can imagine that either case would eventually have led to bloodshed.

If Ned was dreaming about promises he _actually_ broke then these don't have to be promises to Lyanna specifically He might have promised the Daynes not to keep Jon ignorant about who his parents were for example.

Very good point. I always thought the dreams are not always literal referred to the toj one. It could refer to others. Good ideas on what they are.

I don't associate the thorns of a rose with _cruelty_. There was hidden danger in the beauty of the roses, as there was in Rhaegar's gesture to compliment her and in all that followed even if it began sweet and beautiful for Lyanna (if she fell in love and was happy to be with Rhaegar).

Best explanation I've seen for that quote.

It might be shame for never telling Jon who his birth parents were. Shame for allowing him to make the decision to join the NW and thereby giving up whatever rights and claims he might have had, robbing him of any opportunity to decide for himself what he should do about what had happened in Robert's Rebellion. Shame for not giving him the chance to become acquainted with the Targaryen side of his heritage, including his uncle and aunt.

Sorrow for Lyanna and her death. Sorrow for his father and his brother who died as a result of Lyanna loving Rhaegar, or if one wishes Rhaegar raping Lyanna, which led to Jon's existence. In fact, Jon's very existence is associated with a lot of sorrow, in a wider context. So maybe Ned felt sorrow for all those who died in Robert's Rebellion who may yet be alive if not for the events which led to Jon's birth. Maybe he also felt sorrow for Robert who loved Lyanna but was not loved in turn. Or for Cersei, who wasn't loved by Robert because of Lyanna, and so never could come to love Robert in her turn.

Good explanations. I felt in a general way what you articulated in a specific way.

I don't think that Jorah was merely stressing that Dany was assertive, courageous or that she gets what she wants. In the context she had just stopped a rape so I rather think that he was also or even primarily stressing that Dany and Rhaegar have similar views about rape and are willing to act on it.

True.

Some guardsman claiming that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and Bran hearing it does not make a tale "well known" I would say, particular in the whole of Westeros. Such a claim is just as unproven as the opposite one that nearly nobody at all thinks it was rape. We simply don't know very well what most people think happened exactly between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

As we don't know if anybody ever made rape claims in Ned's hearing -- which doesn't seem the smartest thing to do for his guardsmen -- we can't say either what he would have done about it.

Finally, something I can disagree with! I think if Ned could quash Ashara talk he could quash Rhaegar and Lyanna talk.

[Markus]

I think if Ned could quash Ashara talk he could quash Rhaegar and Lyanna talk.

He _could_ have, certainly. The point I raised was whether he _would_ have forbidden his guards to claim that Lyanna was raped.

Snake seemed to suggest that a) Ned knew of what his guards were claiming and that he didn't quash their talk. He took this as evidence that Ned agreed with their account of what happened to Lyanna.

I would suggest that Ned may not have been aware of what his guards were claiming and that that's the reason why he didn't quash it. Personally, I agree that he would probably have quashed it if he were aware of it. But as we don't know for certain if he was aware of it, we can't say why Ned didn't quash it.

[Shewoman]

Ned seems to have spent 14 years trying to keep anyone from figuring out who Jon is. I think the story that Rhaegar raped Lyanna is convenient for him: it frames their relationship as non-consensual and violent, putting the focus on Rhaegar, and makes it less likely that anyone would think Lyanna went with him willingly--that it was a relationship. It also makes no mention of a child. I wonder when most people in Westeros think Lyanna died. My guess is that they think she died soon after she disappeared, since she . . . um . . . disappeared. Therefore when Ned shows up with a bastard son clearly born near the end of the war, they wouldn't be likely to associate it with Rhaegar and Lyanna. So why would he want to quash the rape story? It may do post-mortem damage to Rhaegar's reputation, but I don't think rehabilitating him is high on Ned's to-do list.

He doesn't seem to be trying to stop Wylla from claiming she's Jon's mother, either, although I think it's very unlikely that that claim is true. Ned is essentially an honest man, but Jon's parentage is one case in which he doesn't want the truth known.

[Prince of the North]

Why don't we discuss this in the R+L=J thread? I prefer to discuss it there until we get to the end of the re-read.

Yes, that sounds good! It seems I keep trying to derail the re-read threads you are doing such a good job with so I'll try to do better

[Prince of the North]

Finally, something I can disagree with! I think if Ned could quash Ashara talk he could quash Rhaegar and Lyanna talk.

However, the only one we know of that asked about Ashara and Ned quashed was Catelyn and in private, right? I think Ned was wise enough to know that any reaction he might have to the speculation everyone engaged in about Rhaegar and Lyanna would just lead to more questions and quite possibly more specific questions. No, if he just stayed quiet then no one would know anything for sure.

[Jon Targaryen]

Prince of the North,

That is a good explanation but I think Ned would want to quash any speculation.

Shewoman,

I would guess most people think Lyanna died right before Rhaegar returned from the south. That is, unless they question where the three KG at the toj were (especially Hightower, the Lord Commander, and Dayne, the deadliest sword in the realm and probably Rhaegar's personal shield). Either way, it is a lot later than just after she was abducted.

Markus,

I think that if Bran, an eight-year old boy knew, then Ned must have known.

To all three,

While I do not like any individual explanation, taken together, and perhaps scaled back a bit, they make a convincing case for why Ned did not quash the talk.

[Shewoman]

Since Lyanna apparently dropped out of sight when she left the North (we've not heard anyone say they had any knowledge of her whereabouts after that--aside from Ned, of course), why would most people think she died around the time Rhaegar came up from the South?

[Jon Targaryen]

Why would Rhaegar stay in the south that long if he wasn't raping/loving Lyanna? That's my explanation.

[Zoë Sumra]

Snake--the eyes weeping blood really is a strange detail. Hard to imagine how the roughest childbirth could lead to that, and I'm having trouble visualizing how or why someone would have injured her eyes.

A statue weeping blood IRL is taken to be a sign of religious significance. I don't know if there's anything in this.

[the silent speaker]

A couple of points.

Rhaegar gave the laurel to Lyanna. So he desired her in some fashion whether it was prophecy or lust.

Not necessarily. I don't pretend to know what motivated his actions, which clearly were highly irregular, but we did see Loras giving Sansa a special rose (red, when all the others he gave out were white) and clearly not out of any romantic motivations.

N+A and N+W lenses: Ned is ashamed of Jon himself. I don't see how that fills him with sorrow though or makes Ned want to talk to him.

The breach of his marital vows could have something to do with his sorrow and shame.

Rhaegar was not one to rape or to condone rape.

True; however, IMO it is one of the biggest running tropes in the series that "not one to" might always break its own standards if it feels the circumstances are unique enough. This applies possibly to Rhaegar with Lyanna and Ned with Jon, and unequivocally to Stannis and Edric Storm. Arguably Jon with Ygritte and Robb with Jeyne, too. No one is forever above failure.

[Jon Targaryen]

Not necessarily. I don't pretend to know what motivated his actions, which clearly were highly irregular, but we did see Loras giving Sansa a special rose (red, when all the others he gave out were white) and clearly not out of any romantic motivations.

This is true. But Rhaegar's wife Elia was there. One thinks he would be obligated to give it to Elia unless there was some special reason to give it to Lyanna (love, prophecy, etc). Loras was not married.

The breach of his marital vows could have something to do with his sorrow and shame.

Shame, methinks but not sorrow.

True; however, IMO it is one of the biggest running tropes in the series that "not one to" might always break its own standards if it feels the circumstances are unique enough. This applies possibly to Rhaegar with Lyanna and Ned with Jon, and unequivocally to Stannis and Edric Storm. Arguably Jon with Ygritte and Robb with Jeyne, too. No one is forever above failure.

Very true in Rhaegar's case. "Deliberate, determined, single-minded" etc.

[the silent speaker]

This is true. But Rhaegar's wife Elia was there. ... Loras was not married.

I did say highly irregular.

Shame, methinks but not sorrow.

Shame at the act and sorrow at its long-term burdens on his family, why not?

[Jon Targaryen]

I did say highly irregular.

Shame at the act and sorrow at its long-term burdens on his family, why not?

I agree on both points. I didn't think things through.

[Markus]

I think that if Bran, an eight-year old boy knew, then Ned must have known.

I don't think this is necessarily true. If the source of Bran's knowledge was an overheard remark by some guard Ned wouldn't necessarily have been aware of it. Ned only knew the talk about Ashara Dayne because Catelyn brought it up to him. Before this he was ignorant of it. Lyanna rape isn't a topic either which would necessarily have been brought up by guards to Ned and perhaps not even where he could hear them. So there is a chance that he was ignorant of it. There is even a chance that he did quash it either after Bran heard of it or did quash it with less than 100 percent success. I mean, just because he quashed talk doesn't mean that everybody would obey at all times.

Ned seems to have spent 14 years trying to keep anyone from figuring out who Jon is. I think the story that Rhaegar raped Lyanna is convenient for him: it frames their relationship as non-consensual and violent, putting the focus on Rhaegar, and makes it less likely that anyone would think Lyanna went with him willingly--that it was a relationship. It also makes no mention of a child.

If I were Ned I would be concerned about the inferences people might make when they think about Rhaegar raping Lyanna. There is always the chance of a child when a woman is raped after all. The question would be what would be more important to Ned? Making it less likely that Lyanna went willingly or quashing any focus on what Lyanna and Rhaegar were doing to minimize the chance that somebody wonders too much about a potential child?

It may do post-mortem damage to Rhaegar's reputation, but I don't think rehabilitating him is high on Ned's to-do list.

I can see Ned not wanting to propogate a faslse story about Rhaegar. It's one thing to implicate himself falsely. It's another to have his own men implicate somebody who can't defend himself.

He doesn't seem to be trying to stop Wylla from claiming she's Jon's mother, either, although I think it's very unlikely that that claim is true.

Wylla may well be compensated for her lie. Being the mother of Jon is not the crime which raping Lyanna would be.

Ned is essentially an honest man, but Jon's parentage is one case in which he doesn't want the truth known.

If he felt it was necessary Ned would keep still about the rape story. He does it with Robert. The question is if he really felt it was necessary with his own men. Or if he mightn't have felt it's counterproductive to some degree with regard to obfuscating Jon's parentage and not the honorable thing to do to let his own men propagate falsehoods about Rhaegar.

In any case, in the end we don' really know if Ned was aware of what the talk about Lyanna was and what he did about it. We also don't know if he would have wanted to quash this talk in the first place. So I don't think that the fact Bran heard a story about Lyanna being raped is all that illuminating.

[Shewoman]

Robert's saying Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and so, especially given Rhaegar's having previously moved past his own wife to crown Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal, I think probably the general consensus in Westeros among people who care is that R+L=sex. I seriously doubt that a rape story is needed to make people think of that. Jaime said "Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face" (SoS 418-20, US paperback), which is pretty much accurate. I doubt that he's the only one to come to that conclusion

[snake]

Ned associates Lyanna with tears and blood in his dream. Is this all that wondrous? There are plenty of reasonable explanations. Tears for her sorrow for those she'd loved and who've been killed. Or tears for her regret and sorrow for the role she'd played in contributing to those deaths. Blood for her illness and/or impending death. Possibly for the childbirth she'd had. Or even for the potential consequences of this birth when her baby is a Targaryen.

Those are good reasons. It could also be from pain and injuries. She was wearing the crown afterall

I don't follow your reasoning. Ned sees three Kingsguards on his way to Robert and before he learns what has happened to Robert, and you take this as evidence that Ned talked to Lyanna before he fought the Kingsguards?

The situations were similar in Ned's eyes. So I think it's more than likely that the same scenario happened with Lyanna. He didn't know Lyanna was dying when he arrived and was no doubt summoned to her side. The three Kingsguard might have been waiting outside as he approached her room. That's why Ned got that sinking feeling when he saw them outside Robert's room. I dare say it was like deja vu. So after Lyanna dies they discuss what's to be done. They cannot agree so they fight. It seems rather clear to me.

It's possible that Ned lied to Lyanna for love of her, perhaps to take her fear away as she lay dying. On the other hand, he also thinks "Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them".

So I would suggest that it makes more sense to think Ned lied for love of Lyanna but not to her when he made his promises. When Ned lied to Robert and Cat and Jon and all the world about Jon's parentage in order to protect him it would make a lot of sense.

It's possible what you say but it makes more sense if you are arguing from a R + L = J pov. I'm not so it doesn't sit well with me.

The immediate context is, as Jon Targaryen says, Ned's promise to serve the boar at Robert's funeral feast. I don't see a reason to suspect he didn't plan to do as Robert wished here. The wider context includes Ned not revealing to Robert that Joff isn't his son because he didn't want to hurt him, yes, and substituting "Joffrey" with "my heir" in Robert's will.

What triggered Ned's memory of Lyanna here? The promise he'd to make to Robert? Robert making Ned the guardian of his children? Ned deceiving Robert about what he really wanted to do with regard to Joff? All of these?

Perhaps he promised Lyanna he would cook a boar after she died. Most likely what triggered the Lyanna thought was the fact that he was making promises to someone he loved as they lay dying.

Ned _dreams_ of broken promises and blood. GRRM has made clear that dreams are not always literal. If you consider the situation Ned was in I would hardly be surprised if he would have had a nightmare about what would have happened if he would have broken his promises to Lyanna, would either have revealed Jon as Rhaegar's son or allowed Targaryen loyalists to bring him up for example. One can imagine that either case would eventually have led to bloodshed.

I accept that dreams are not literal but his dreams about the ToJ are based on actual events so if he dreamed of blood and broken promises then it probably has some root in actual events.

If Ned was dreaming about promises he _actually_ broke then these don't have to be promises to Lyanna specifically He might have promised the Daynes not to keep Jon ignorant about who his parents were for example.

True. Much like his promises to Lyanna might not have nothing to do with a child.

I don't associate the thorns of a rose with _cruelty_. There was hidden danger in the beauty of the roses, as there was in Rhaegar's gesture to compliment her and in all that followed even if it began sweet and beautiful for Lyanna (if she fell in love and was happy to be with Rhaegar).

You might not associate the thorns with cruelty but Ned seemed to and he had more information on that than we do.

It might be shame for never telling Jon who his birth parents were. Shame for allowing him to make the decision to join the NW and thereby giving up whatever rights and claims he might have had, robbing him of any opportunity to decide for himself what he should do about what had happened in Robert's Rebellion. Shame for not giving him the chance to become acquainted with the Targaryen side of his heritage, including his uncle and aunt.

I doubt Ned felt shame for denying Jon his Targaryen heritage, if it even existed. I still think the shame is because of how he handled the situation with Jon's mother.

Sorrow for Lyanna and her death. Sorrow for his father and his brother who died as a result of Lyanna loving Rhaegar, or if one wishes Rhaegar raping Lyanna, which led to Jon's existence. In fact, Jon's very existence is associated with a lot of sorrow, in a wider context. So maybe Ned felt sorrow for all those who died in Robert's Rebellion who may yet be alive if not for the events which led to Jon's birth. Maybe he also felt sorrow for Robert who loved Lyanna but was not loved in turn. Or for Cersei, who wasn't loved by Robert because of Lyanna, and so never could come to love Robert in her turn.

The sorrow Ned feels is very strong. So I think it's something that still hurts him to this day.

I don't think that Jorah was merely stressing that Dany was assertive, courageous or that she gets what she wants. In the context she had just stopped a rape so I rather think that he was also or even primarily stressing that Dany and Rhaegar have similar views about rape and are willing to act on it.

I don't think so since Ser Jorah probably never knew Rhaegar's opinions on rape. I just think that Dany showed a kind of "true steel" that Rhaegar was known to possess.

Some guardsman claiming that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and Bran hearing it does not make a tale "well known" I would say, particular in the whole of Westeros. Such a claim is just as unproven as the opposite one that nearly nobody at all thinks it was rape. We simply don't know very well what most people think happened exactly between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Perhaps not well known but Bran states it in such a way that he seems certain of it's truth.

As we don't know if anybody ever made rape claims in Ned's hearing -- which doesn't seem the smartest thing to do for his guardsmen -- we can't say either what he would have done about it.

Again, I think the way Bran speaks of it, as if it were a well-known truth seems to suggest that it was common knowledge in Winterfell at least.

[Shewoman]

The boar was served at Robert's funeral feast, so that was a promise that was kept (whether Ned had anything to do with it or not).

Snake said, "Perhaps he promised Lyanna he would cook a boar after she died. Most likely what triggered the Lyanna thought was the fact that he was making promises to someone he loved as they lay dying." I agree. (sudden image of Ned and the KG getting along famously until they drink too much and start fighting each other with boar's tusks).

Jon, what week of quotes are we in now?

[snake]

That was week six so next is week seven I guess.

[Sarella]

True. Much like his promises to Lyanna might not have nothing to do with a child.

Snake, I'm sorry if you've already said this, but I can't remember; what is it that you think the promises were? I am yet to hear an alternative promise that Ned made to Lyanna that makes sense of all of Ned's memories and guilt about it.