Arab Parties Banned from the Knesset

[G'Kar]

Can't the Arab members of the parties just quickly do a name change, but let people know it is basically the same party AKA pull a Joe Leibermen?

[salinea]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1646517' date='Jan 13 2009, 01.32']Obviously facts can arise that may dispute hairy bears take on the matter, but wouldn't it be safe to say that given what we know now, his take seems the most likely one? I mean its gonna take some hardcore enemy collaborating or some explicit, unambiguous calls for the destruction of the state of Israel for myself and most other outside observers to consider this move the least bit legitimate. All signs at the moment point to Israel taking a big dump on Democracy and disenfranchising their Arab minority.[/quote]

I agree it's a bad move for democracy, and I already said I disproved of it and that I thought it showed a bad trend for Israel (especially coupled with the ban of the press from the Gaza strip, it's a bad combo). I still think the hairy bear's comment was ever so slightly hyperbolic in that it basically said it spells the end of democracy in Israel.

[salinea]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1646521' date='Jan 13 2009, 01.35']Can't the Arab members of the parties just quickly do a name change, but let people know it is basically the same party AKA pull a Joe Leibermen?[/quote]
Possibly not in time for the soon to be elections?

[The Progressive]

[quote name='Etrangere' post='1646507' date='Jan 12 2009, 16.22']Shouldn't you wait to know how many actual people those parties represent (since I assume not all Arabs vote for Arab parties) before you make that statement?[/quote]

[quote]I still think the hairy bear's comment was ever so slightly hyperbolic[/quote]

I disagree; I think the hairy bear's comment quite closely resemble the political reality of the soon to be disenfranchised Arab voters. According to this article from 2006, Arabs "vote overwhelmingly for Arab parties, and generally do not support the large national parties, such as Labor, Likud and Kadima, which are referred to in the Arab community as Zionist parties ........ Arabs make up about 20 percent of Israel's population of more than six-million people. Yet, the Arab parties control just eight seats in Israel's 120-seat Knesset, and the four main Arab parties are seen as perpetually on the margins of Israel's political life."

[url="http://www.allbusiness.com/middle-east/israel/875743-1.html"]http://www.allbusiness.com/middle-east/israel/875743-1.html[/url]

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1646521' date='Jan 12 2009, 18.35']Can't the Arab members of the parties just quickly do a name change, but let people know it is basically the same party AKA pull a Joe Leibermen?[/quote]

Possibly. But I suspect its a bit too close to the election for something like that to coalesce. I'm assuming a party has a leadership structure, offices, slogans, emblems, grass roots organizations, its one hell of a feat to get that all reorganized under a different heading. Nor is it guaranteed that they'll carry their base and power structure with them, some may see this as an opportunity to forge out on their own. An outright banning sometimes has the effect of fracturing those interests, at least temporarily.

Plus I'm sure there are a whole host of administrative procedures one has to go through to become a legally recognized party, not to mention getting names on tickets throughout the country. None of this can be done in time for the election I suspect. Maybe the next one.

[Shryke]

[quote]Also, democracies ban parties all the time. My problem is less with the banning and more with the proximity ot the elections.[/quote]

My problem is more with the (seemingly) flimsy excuse.

Although I find the idea of banning parties distasteful simply by nature, even if you do allow it, this is a pretty shitty excuse for doing it.

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1646521' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.35']Can't the Arab members of the parties just quickly do a name change, but let people know it is basically the same party AKA pull a Joe Leibermen?[/quote]

No clue. It depends on what the ban actually entails (ie - is it the PARTY or the MEMBERS who are banned) and also on how one registers as a party and how long that takes and so on.

[The hairy bear]

[quote name='Etrangere' post='1646507' date='Jan 13 2009, 01.22']Shouldn't you wait to know how many actual people those parties represent (since I assume not all Arabs vote for Arab parties) before you make that statement?[/quote]
I did my research (aka wiki) correctly , they were voted in the 2006 elections between a 5 and a 6% of the voters. Which I deem significant enough to require very good reasons and proved facts before preventing any of them to be on the ballots.


The fact that arabs have other arab parties to vote, or that the banned parties might try to change its name quickly doesn't address the fact that arabs voters/parties will be in disadvantage in the elections.

[salinea]

[quote name='The hairy bear' post='1646531' date='Jan 13 2009, 01.45']I did my research (aka wiki) correctly , they were voted in the 2006 elections between a 5 and a 6% of the voters. Which I deem significant enough to require very good reasons and proved facts before preventing any of them to be on the ballots.[/quote]
Okay, that's true. Although we don't have any good info about whether or not they had legitimate data to pass this ban, but it does look bad.

[G'Kar]

The Supreme Court is soon to rule on this (before Friday I beleive) and I [i]hope[/i] that they will not allow the banning to occur so close to the elctions unless there is some fucking compelling evidence that has just been revealed to the government. I'm a pro-Israel defender but I don't like this move one bit.

The problem at the moment is that there aren't enough details yet about this online. I'm hoping more will be revealed.

[Shryke]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1646542' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.56']The Supreme Court is soon to rule on this and I [i]hope[/i] that they will not allow the banning to occur so close to the elctions unless there is some fucking compelling evidence that has just been revealed to the government. I'm a pro-Israel defender but I don't like this move one bit.

The problem at the moment is that there aren't enough details yet about this online. I'm hoping more will be revealed.[/quote]

Apparently something like this happened back in 2003 and the SC overruled it. I'm not sure what became of that though or what the exact situation was. I'll see if I can turn something up later tonight.

Apparently though, the Knesset, unlike the IDF, will probably actually listen to the SC.

[G'Kar]

From what I've read, it looks like only one party has ever been banned outright and that was a right-wing militant Zionist one, so thats promising.

[the silent speaker]

I do recall hearing of some pretty incitement-y things attributed to Ahmed Tibi (I'm guessing he's the MK of one of the parties affected? Anyway, he's the name I remmeber) so I'm willing to take the charge at face value. However, I agree with G'Kar that this close to elections this should probably not have been done, barring a recent sudden major ramping-up of the rhetoric. You want to privately warn him that what has been overlooked in the past will no longer be tolerated, fine, and if he violates that an insta-ban is acceptable; you want to ban the party when there's no vote in the offing, fine, but don't hoik away a political party right before the election.

[IheartTesla]

[quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1646416' date='Jan 12 2009, 18.35']Err, most countries do in fact. Start with "every communist party" and work your way down the list.[/quote]

Okay. Hey, India has [i]two[/i] Communist parties. We must be real tolerant compared to Europeans.

[snake]

As alludedc to by Shryke in 2003 there was the ban of two Arab politicians that was overturned by the Israeli SC.

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2641227.stm"]Story.[/url]

There also was an attempt in 2006 to ban an Arab party.

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4760134.stm"]Story.[/url]

[March]

When I was in Israel this summer, I talked up my family (Israeli Arabs) about voting. I was curious to know who, if anyone, was getting the Israeli Arab vote. This is all purely anecdotal, of course, and, I suspect, applicable mostly to Muslim and Christian Israeli Arabs (not Druze or Bedouin, if they consider themselves Arab???). The relatives do support these parties, among other Arab parties, partly because of their desire to change the conception of Israel as a Jewish state. I have not read the charter of either party, but this element, the commitment to transforming Israel into a state that is democratic and secular, rather than Jewish in character, was explained to me as a key part of the party platform for most Arab parties. It is not the destruction of Israel or the removal of Jews, but the adoption of a new paradigm for understanding what it means to be Israeli and a new conceptualization of Israel's commitments.

This might violate the second clause of the first requirement for political parties (the "state for Jewish people" part). I do wonder about the practical applications of such a philosophical change. Would the aim be to limit Jewish immigration to Israel? How does this work for parties that, IIRC, call for compensation for Palestinians who lost land in 1948?

[salinea]

[quote name='cyrano' post='1646561' date='Jan 13 2009, 02.23']Okay. Hey, India has [i]two[/i] Communist parties. We must be real tolerant compared to Europeans.[/quote]
France has two Trotskyste parties and one Communist party. :smoking:

[salinea]

[quote name='March' post='1646576' date='Jan 13 2009, 02.43']I have not read the charter of either party, but this element, the commitment to transforming Israel into a state that is democratic and secular, rather than Jewish in character, was explained to me as a key part of the party platform for most Arab parties.[/quote]
Either you're not doing a very good job at presenting those party's platform, or their party's platform is nonsensical, since Israel is already democratic (*ahem* so far) and secular.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='March' post='1646576' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.43']The relatives do support these parties, among other Arab parties, partly because of their desire to change the conception of Israel as a Jewish state. I have not read the charter of either party, but this element, the commitment to transforming Israel into a state that is democratic and secular, rather than Jewish in character, was explained to me as a key part of the party platform for most Arab parties. It is not the destruction of Israel or the removal of Jews, but the adoption of a new paradigm for understanding what it means to be Israeli and a new conceptualization of Israel's commitments.

This might violate the second clause of the first requirement for political parties (the "state for Jewish people" part). I do wonder about the practical applications of such a philosophical change. Would the aim be to limit Jewish immigration to Israel? How does this work for parties that, IIRC, call for compensation for Palestinians who lost land in 1948?[/quote]

If that is the scope of their primary aims and the thrust of their rhetoric, I find it to be eminently desirable. The claims of being a Democracy and being a state for a specific, exclusive people are logically and practically inconsistent. You can't simply ignore or subvert demographic realities. (well you can, but you hardly deserve the label of a just state if you do.)

[Dinsdale!]

It's my understanding that these parties are considered inappropriate to be in coalition with anyway. Voting for them is something of a protest vote, because there is zero chance any of their members will be Ministers.


[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1646398' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.28']If this is the actual wording than its rather exclusionary, undemocratic, and potentially racist at the onset. What if Arab Muslims come to outnumber Jews 3 to 1? Do they say screw Democracy and still declare it the 'State of the Jewish people'? How can they claim to be operating a liberal Western Democracy when the state is declared to be for a certain specific people? Have the Brits declared England as the state of the white anglos? This is a bit disturbing.[/quote]

Sounds like the sort of idea that made a lot of sense 80 years ago, but strikes us as odd now.
Aren't you the Woodrow Wilson fan on the board? He was a pretty big proponent of ethnic groups getting their own states, and this seems a natural extension.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Etrangere' post='1646591' date='Jan 12 2009, 19.56']Either you're not doing a very good job at presenting those party's platform, or their party's platform is nonsensical, since Israel is already democratic (*ahem* so far) and secular.[/quote]

And according to its Constitution (or whatever document was quoted earlier), they're a 'State of the Jewish People'. There does seem something inherently exclusionary about such a declaration. And Arab Muslim Israeli's might understandably be scratching their heads wondering what roles and opportunities they can hope to have in a 'State of the Jewish People'. And a bit frustrated that they live in a state whose self-proclaimed national identity doesn't seem to include them.

[quote]Sounds like the sort of idea that made a lot of sense 80 years ago, but strikes us as odd now.
Aren't you the Woodrow Wilson fan on the board? He was a pretty big proponent of ethnic groups getting their own states, and this seems a natural extension.[/quote]

His ideas were pretty revolutionary at the time and the core of them remains sound, but notions of national self-determination have seen some additions and improvements in the last century. (and thankfully so) Lets remember the guy was also a raging bigot. Can't expect him to have given much positive thought to notions of multi-culturalism. Since his time its become clear that national identity can be forged without falling back exclusively upon ethnicity, religion, or one specific homogeneous culture as a means of identity and establishing unity. In many regions with significant ethnic diversity it becomes a necessity to forge that national identity via other means.

Given the demographic realities its pretty clear that Israel will one day soon have to define itself in terms that aren't exclusively Jewish...or forgoe any pretenses of being a Democracy altogether. That doesn't mean their Jewish character must be eliminated, but that it can no longer be the only primary identifier of the Israeli state. That other identities must be integrated into the national identity.