It doesn't make any sense for Jon to be at the Tower of Joy

[Grim Shady]

To come up with excuses on why Ned wouldn't think about Rhaegar even when Rhaegar is brought up is to me just more denial caused by the hope that the R+L=J theory is true. Sorry. He thinks about Rhaegar at Harrenhal. He thinks about Rhaegar and the Trident. He doesn't think about Rhaegar when he thinks about Jon or Lyanna. It's there staring us right in the face and will look very strange if Jon is Rhaegar's son.

I'm also sorry about the fact that I can't let go of the Howland Reed/Forrest Gump silliness yet either, bear with me.

Howland Reed: "Say hi to my first mate, Lieutenant Bran."

Bran: "Damnit Reed! I was supposed to die with my men! It was my destiny!"

Howland Reed: "Lieutenant Bran got new legs."

Hodor: "Hodor."

[Grim Shady]

I'd also like to point out that Aerys + Lyanna = Jon makes for a much stronger crackpot theory than R + L. It would make Jon Dany's brother, correct? Instead of her nephew. This would leave me predicting that there is a 3rd sibling somewhere to set up a perfect 3 Heads reversal, instead of Aegon and two sisters, we'd have Dany and two brothers.

BAM!

[Jon Targaryen]

He thinks about Rhaegar at Harrenhal. He thinks about Rhaegar and the Trident. He doesn't think about Rhaegar when he thinks about Jon or Lyanna.

I think the point is that Ned should think about Rhaegar when he thinks about Lyanna regardless of R+L=J. Rhaegar had a big bit to do with Lyanna's fate no matter what. However, he doesn't think about Rhaegar every time he thinks about Lyanna. It's already "strange." "Some Stark"+?=Jon (no R+L) will not evade the problem and R+L=J won't create a problem.

[Lord O' Bones]

At this point, I would just like the thread CLOSED.

Jesus kid, relax.

[Winterfail]

I've only been through the books once. I'm still learning, and the whole R+L=J theory is brand new to me. I read the proper theory, the big beast of a thread, and I am enjoying this one immensely; please don't lock it yet.

[Grim Shady]

Jesus kid, relax.

Seriously.

I got Easy Like Sunday Morning playing in my head now for some reason.

A Targaryen Aunt + Nephew combo is just frickin' creepy.

Jon "The Iceman" Snow: "You can be my wingman anytime, Aunt Dany."

Aunt Dany: "Bullshit, you can be mine!"

*scene transitions to Dany standing on the shores of Dragonstone tossing Tyrion's dogtags into the water.*

[Miriel]

At this point, I would just like the thread CLOSED.

Close the thread???

This thread is good fun. Why I think it has extracted the most life out of the old dead R+L=J argument seen in quite some time.

It would be a big error to close the thread. Besides the fact that you are making a nice contribution to the whole conversation, it is YOUR thread!

As Grim Shady and Lord of Bones, said, relax and enjoy -- nothing should be taken too seriously here. :)

[the silent speaker]

Well, if Ned associated Rhaegar with Lyanna's death, and often dwells on her as she lived but seldom dwells on her as she died (Ned has a tendency to prefer to let the dead lie), it holds together. The catch for R+L=J is that if there was the whole setup often posited, Ned should have associated Rhaegar with Lyanna's life, too, as well as Jon's, and then thoughts of him should have been inescapable.

[Grim Shady]

I think the point is that Ned should think about Rhaegar when he thinks about Lyanna regardless of R+L=J. Rhaegar had a big bit to do with Lyanna's fate no matter what. However, he doesn't think about Rhaegar every time he thinks about Lyanna. It's already "strange." "Some Stark"+?=Jon (no R+L) will not evade the problem and R+L=J won't create a problem.

See the reasonings that have been given that might explain away his reluctance to think about Rhaegar fit better with Aerys. Cause he DOES think about Rhaegar a bit, with Harenhal, etc. It just comes across as if he's leaving him out because he wasn't a part of what he's thinking about. Not that he's actually blocking him out.

Aerys on the other hand pretty much ruined Ned Stark's life (debatable!). So only thinking of Aerys in terms of Jaime sitting on the throne after killing him fits in nicely with Stark hating Aerys so much that he can't even think of him other than as a corpse. He wouldn't want to think about some guy who killed his father, his brother, and indirectly his sister with a birth complication.

But I'm going to far into the A + L thingie.

Ned and Jon will be attending the father/son softball game and they won't be cheating.

And people keep bringing up stuff from outside GoT to try and defend against what I'm pointing to, which is GoT. So I'll address the big one that people think is definitive proof of Jon being Lyanna's son. The blue rose in the wall of ice.

Prophecies do not care about the nobles' petty concepts of legitimacy. Prophecies care about exactly what is needed to make them come true, no matter how basic they have to go or how symbolic.

Jon Snow is a Stark. As far as any prophecy is concerned, he is a Stark. One of his parents was a Stark. That makes him as much a Stark as Robb, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Rickon, even Ned (Unless Ned's mom was a Stark and the mystery surrounding her is my favorite). All of them are half Stark and half something else. Only mortals care about what his last name should be.

The blue rose symbolizes a previous attempt at fulfilling the prophecy's requirements. A previous match between a Targ and a Stark, the fire and the ice. Rhaegar messed up just as Melisandre has. Whatever power is behind the prophecies is showing Dany a hint of the next match. It doesn't have to mean that there's a Rhaeganna kid there. It's just a symbol of the pairing of those two bloodlines. What else would it show her? A white wolf trying to climb out of a crevasse? That's not a symbol of love, that's just a youtube video waiting to happen.

I hope when Dany and Jon meet they're at each other's throats. Tempers flare. She tries to tell him what to do with the Night's Watch and that they should serve her. He tells her his wolf is getting upset and when Ghost gets upset, people die. Everyone else present at the meeting shuffles out in uncomfortable silence leaving them alone. Jon grabs her by the shoulders, "You make my blood boil!" Dany: "Shut up and kiss me you fool!"

[Angalin]

Random thoughts after reading Grim Shady's post about Jon's Starkness being the essential part of the blue rose in ice prophecy (I like the idea that the fates took a mulligan on this):

Say that Jon is Ned and Ashara's son. Then why is the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? Only for the prince's mistress? That stretches the must-follow-orders concept to breaking point for me. Does Lyanna tell Ned about Ashara's baby and give him an extra reason to hurtle down the road to Starfall? ETA: Are there two babies, one Lyanna's and one Ashara's, and one dies? I feel that's overdoing the secret lovechild thing, though.

Say that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, but illegitimate. The Kingsguard being at the ToJ is more plausible, at least if the baby is still there, because illegitimate or not he's the only Targaryen around to support. Viserys is on Dragonstone and certainly the Targaryens have seen their share of illegitimate claimants to the throne.

Now give Jon the same parents, but make him legitimate. The presence of the Kingsguard is now totally understandable. The baby could either be at the ToJ with Wylla, or with both Wylla (as wetnurse) and Ashara (as guardian) in Starfall. If the latter, then he is likely a few days old at most. As suggested upthread and elsewhere (what begins/what ends thread), the KG is most likely trying to prevent Ned from reaching Jon and taking him home with him.

Finally, make Jon Lyanna and Aerys's child, which is not impossible given how angry Aerys was with the Knight of the Laughing Tree/Lyanna. In this case, I don't see Jon as being legitimate unless Rhaegar somehow pulled a fast one on his dad and got Aerys to sign off on it - and wouldn't there be a record of that? If Aerys raped Lyanna, would that explain his overreaction wrt Brandon and Lord Rickard? (I'm ignoring his below-basic level of sanity here. :P)

As well, depending on what exactly was wrong with Lyanna, they might have wanted the baby away from her and off to a discreet maester in Starfall as quickly as possible. Once she'd delivered a healthy enough baby, her job was done. Happy Ent has some interesting ideas about the KG on that point. ;)

[Maia]

Just wanted to say that you can't postulate that Ned should have been thinking about Jon's dad constantly if Jon was Rheagar's, but neglect that the same should have applied to Jon's mom if he was Ned's!

Either way Jon should have realistically reminded Ned of the other parent and the fact that he doesn't is an artistical license that is neutral for the question of mystery parent's identity.

Oh, and Ned should have absolutely remembered Ashara, too, whether she is connected to Jon in any way or not.

Let's just accept that Ned is blanketing a lot of stuff that a person would normally think about.

And if it turned out that Ned was Jon's father, well, it certainly would tarnish his image for me a lot. Not because he had a bastard, but because his treatment of Jon and Cat would have been baselessly cruel and neglectful in such a case.

[Shewoman]

Ned thinks about Lyanna's death frequently because he witnessed it and he loved her. I think he's sincere when he thinks about how little he thinks about Rhaegar. I don't think he needs to think about him; to him Jon is his nephew, not the son of an enemy. He never endorses Robert's over-the-top denunciations of Rhaegar--he doestn't have the obsessive need to dwell on Lyanna's death that Robert does.

[SFDanny]

I find that persuasive. It seems probable that Barristan was pardoned earlier than the other three.

I don't know about the earlier part. The argument against it is that Ser Barristan tells Dany that part of the reason he bent the knee to Robert is Viserys's mental instability, not Aerys's well documented displays of craziness. That would seem to suggest that he does so after Aerys is dead. Because of that, I lean toward Selmy making his decision after he hears of the Tower of Joy events, when he must make his way after all of the men he respected are dead. Anyway, my thinking on it up to this point.

Checked it, it seems I was misremembering the scene, he makes no mention of the time he woke up or bent the knee to Robert. Sorry for that.

No problem at all, EB. Thanks for checking it for me. It would be great if someone could find something to nail down this event. Constructing a timeline for the current story line is hard enough, but trying to sort out the details of Robert's rebellion are almost impossible.

As to Ned not thinking of Rhaegar in years, I'm not sure why this affects only one theory and not the others. Rhaegar played an enormous role in Lyanna's life regardless of the exact details. Insofar as it's odd at all, it's just as odd for him not to think of the man who kidnapped and savaged his sister as it is to not think of the man who she willingly eloped with. He casts a huge shadow either way.

Also deliberately suppressing memories of Rhaegar makes sense too, to not just tell the lie but to believe it himself.

I think the point is that Ned should think about Rhaegar when he thinks about Lyanna regardless of R+L=J. Rhaegar had a big bit to do with Lyanna's fate no matter what. However, he doesn't think about Rhaegar every time he thinks about Lyanna. It's already "strange." "Some Stark"+?=Jon (no R+L) will not evade the problem and R+L=J won't create a problem.

I think you two sum it up nicely. It does fit in the L+R=J scenario that Ned doesn't think about Rhaegar. The only way to say it doesn't is to ignore the problem of why Ned wouldn't think about Rhaegar if he was the monster Robert thinks he is. The "denial" is on the part of people who are grasping at straws to find something that doesn't fit. That's ok; every theory needs to be tested. It's just better that evidence is weighed without ignoring all of its consequences.

The blue rose symbolizes a previous attempt at fulfilling the prophecy's requirements. A previous match between a Targ and a Stark, the fire and the ice. Rhaegar messed up just as Melisandre has. Whatever power is behind the prophecies is showing Dany a hint of the next match. It doesn't have to mean that there's a Rhaeganna kid there. It's just a symbol of the pairing of those two bloodlines. What else would it show her? A white wolf trying to climb out of a crevasse? That's not a symbol of love, that's just a youtube video waiting to happen.

It's a step too far to bring the "prophecy's requirements" into the symbolism of the blue rose. The blue rose is a symbol in the north, dating back to the story of Bael the Bard, of romantic love. None of which has anything to do with the Targaryens or the Song of Ice and Fire. In Lyanna and Rhaegar's case it symbolizes their love for each other and this is pretty much confirmed with the dual stories of the flowers he presents to her at the Harrenhal tourney and in the roses in Ned's account of Lyanna's death. Dany's vision has the flower growing at the Wall, a reference to Lyanna and Rhaegar's love, and an obvious match with Jon's location. The idea that the blue rose is now a symbol of Targaryen future love interests or has now been incorporated into the requirements of the prophecy of Ice and Fire is a huge stretch. If we follow the logic, it would mean that Dany and Jon's future children are the fulfillment of the Song of Ice and Fire. How likely is that?

[the silent speaker]

Just wanted to say that you can't postulate that Ned should have been thinking about Jon's dad constantly if Jon was Rheagar's, but neglect that the same should have applied to Jon's mom if he was Ned's!

The problem is that if Jon is Rhaegar's, he's also Lyanna's. Jon would have brought up thoughts of Rhaegar ancillary to thinking of Lyanna if that were so. If Jon is Ned's, he doesn't bring up thoughts of Lyanna, or if he does, thoughts of Wylla/Ashara/Cersei don't spark off of that.

Besides, we don't know that he doesn't think of Jon's mother every now and then (in the way that people think of those they once loved and now they don't). However, we do know that he doesn't think of Rhaegar.

[the silent speaker]

The only way to say it doesn't is to ignore the problem of why Ned wouldn't think about Rhaegar if he was the monster Robert thinks he is.

Ned lets the dead lie. Why should he obsess over Rhaegar fifteen years after the man got his chest smashed in? Robert is the one portrayed with the unhealthy mindset here, not Ned. Ned doesn't think about Aerys too often either, and Aerys was the monster Robert thinks he is.

Dany's vision has the flower growing at the Wall, a reference to Lyanna and Rhaegar's love, and an obvious match with Jon's location.

Even granting that the flower at the wall is a symbol of romantic love, which is itself less self-evident than you suppose, nothing in the vision impels it to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Furthermore I dispute that the wall of ice in the vision is intended as a match for Jon's location.

[Shewoman]

I think that, especially after listening to Robert obsess repeatedly over Rhaegar's generally evil Rhaegarhood, Ned doesn't want or need to think of Rhaegar. He comforts Robert from time to time, telling him that Robert avenged Lyanna, but I think one of the last things Ned would ever want would be to become like Robert on this point. He would prefer to remember his sister with love to focusing on the one who may have taken her away.

We tend to be interested in what Ned promised to Lyanna, but I think it's likely that she had some things to tell him before she died that we don't know about. He may know more about the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship than we do.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

I don't know about the earlier part. The argument against it is that Ser Barristan tells Dany that part of the reason he bent the knee to Robert is Viserys's mental instability, not Aerys's well documented displays of craziness. That would seem to suggest that he does so after Aerys is dead. Because of that, I lean toward Selmy making his decision after he hears of the Tower of Joy events, when he must make his way after all of the men he respected are dead. Anyway, my thinking on it up to this point.

After Aerys is dead but before Robert arrives in KL is altogether possible. Ned and Tywin entered KL the same day that Aerys died, but Robert and Barristan were recuperating from their Trident wounds. They could have received news of the Sack several days before the main bulk of Robert's army marched down to KL.

The only two choices for separate pardons are earlier and later, and earlier makes a lot more sense to me. For one thing, wouldn't Barristan feel under the obligation to start fighting the rebels again as soon as he was able bodied...unless he saw their victory as fait accompli by that point?

[SFDanny]

Ned lets the dead lie. Why should he obsess over Rhaegar fifteen years after the man got his chest smashed in? Robert is the one portrayed with the unhealthy mindset here, not Ned. Ned doesn't think about Aerys too often either, and Aerys was the monster Robert thinks he is.

If Ned lets the dead lie, then why is the fact he says he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years indicative of anything? The whole point is those who think this somehow doesn't fit with L+R=J say Ned would HAVE to think of Rhaegar if he is Jon's father. Under your assumption it doesn't matter.

[the silent speaker]

If Ned lets the dead lie, then why is the fact he says he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years indicative of anything?

Because he has thought of Lyanna.

[Jon Targaryen]

The problem is that if Jon is Rhaegar's, he's also Lyanna's. Jon would have brought up thoughts of Rhaegar ancillary to thinking of Lyanna if that were so. If Jon is Ned's, he doesn't bring up thoughts of Lyanna, or if he does, thoughts of Wylla/Ashara/Cersei don't spark off of that.

I'm probably not understanding but why should Ned think of Rhaegar when thinking of Lyanna if R+L=J, but not have to think of the mother if N+?=J.

Besides, we don't know that he doesn't think of Jon's mother every now and then (in the way that people think of those they once loved and now they don't). However, we do know that he doesn't think of Rhaegar.

This is a fair point.