Legendary Weapons

[Ran]

True. The main thing is that we don't know of any Valyrian steel swords in Westeros that have been there since before the Doom. But they may well exist.

[Jaak]

True. The main thing is that we don't know of any Valyrian steel swords in Westeros that have been there since before the Doom. But they may well exist.

To the contrary, all we know have been there since before the Doom.

The Doom was 400 years ago. The stated ages of Valyrian swords were from 400 to 500 years.

[MountainThatRides]

It's also quite possible that many older houses in Westeros had Valyrian steel swords made simply because they were known throughout the world as the pinnacle of swordsmithing. Along with the ripples in the blade and the likely unfounded rumors about the blades being "spellforged", it hearkens back to Damascus steel, which was prized but rarely used by Christian warriors in the time that it was produced. They're also similar to the blades forged by the Japanese, which are made lighter and stronger through a lengthy folding process.

If House Mormont has a Valyrian steel sword, and House Horpe, then any minor house in the Seven Kingdoms may possess one (though they are quite rare). Being a Great House or a particularly wealthy house has nothing to do with it; those houses that still possess Valyrian steel swords might have been in a position to have one made back in the day, but have since fallen into obscurity. We know that Tywin has always been wroth about his house having lost Brightroar, and tried to purchase the Valyrian steel swords of lesser, impoverished houses (forget which houses specifically) but was rebuffed. This leads me to believe that Valyrian swords changing hands was a rare occurrence; men who possessed them prized them greatly. The only house that might have had extra Valyrian steel with which to make gifts or trades is, of course, House Targaryen. Still, I think most of the houses with swords of Valyrian steel probably acquired them prior to the conquest.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Along with the ripples in the blade and the likely unfounded rumors about the blades being "spellforged", it hearkens back to Damascus steel,

I have no idea why you think the use of spells in making VS is "likely unfounded". Unlike RL, magic is real in the IaF world,Valyrians were strong in magic, and we have direct testimony of the need to use spells even to rework old swords from Tobho Mott. I don't see what there is to be skeptical about, here.

If House Mormont has a Valyrian steel sword, and House Horpe, then any minor house in the Seven Kingdoms may possess one (though they are quite rare). Being a Great House or a particularly wealthy house has nothing to do with it;

For later acquisitions, sure. Jon and Brienne received them as gifts, House Drumm's ancestor stole one by force, GRRM has said that some houses may have spent everything they had to buy one, going near to bankruptcy in the process, while there may even be hedge knights who looted them from battlefield dead.

But for the original acquisitions, from the Valyrians, it seems more likely that a lot of money may have been required.

[MountainThatRides]

From what we've seen in the books, Valyrian steel has no magical properties other than it's very sharp and considerably light. It might turn out to have some effect against the Others, and that could possibly just mean it was forged in dragonflame. Magic swords like Excalibur don't exist in A Song of Ice and Fire; Martin's use of magic is much more subtle. Stannis's Lightbringer is said to be a "magic sword" because Melisandre enchanted it with some cheap trick. The people of Westeros are superstitious and Tobho Mott prattling on about spellforged steel just makes him another ignorant blowhard.

When I said "being a wealthy house has nothing to do with it" I meant during the time of the books. Obviously in order to have commissioned a Valyrian sword in the days that they were available, a House would have to be considerably affluent; they have since become impoverished, old in honor and naught else.

[Guest Other-in-law]

From what we've seen in the books, Valyrian steel has no magical properties other than it's very sharp and considerably light. It might turn out to have some effect against the Others, and that could possibly just mean it was forged in dragonflame.

So it has no magical properties, but at the same time maybe it has the magical property of being able to kill supernatural beings. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

Magic swords like Excalibur don't exist in A Song of Ice and Fire; Martin's use of magic is much more subtle.

Mel hurling fireballs at eagles is "subtle"?

Tobho Mott prattling on about spellforged steel just makes him another ignorant blowhard.

This really is just the most unsubstantiated sort of bullshit. He's an ignorant blowhard who happens to possess an extraordinarily rare set of skills that let him charge top dollar? Why don't you suppose any common smith on the street of steel could have reforged Ice, if there's nothing special about doing it?

[Ran]

I don't think she threw a fireball. I think she got him to spontaneously combust...

And to quote GRRM:

A brief question about Valyrian steel - is it the metal that makes the sword so special (provenance, age, etc), or is it the forging (spells, techniques)

Forging techniques and spells, actually. There is magic involved in the making of Valyrian steel.

In other words, if a smith knew how, could he take some fresh, high-quality steel and produce an equally fine sword?

Not unless he could work the magic.

Or is it something like Aragorn's Anduril in the Lord of the Rings, which could be re-forged but not made from scratch, or so it seemed to me.

That's pretty much been the situation since the Doom of Valyria.

[MountainThatRides]

Thank you Ran and Other-in-Law for correcting me. While I still believe that Martin employs magic in a subtle and sparse way, as to keep it mysterious rather than tedious, you are undoubtedly correct about Valyrian swords being forged with magic. It has not yet been illuminated on further -- we don't know what sort of spells were used, though I have a hunch that dragonfire was involved, hence the (possible) effectiveness of Valyrian steel against the Others. Regardless, the only proof we have of this is what Martin himself has said; nothing in the story itself is concrete, it's all myth and legend and lore. It strikes me that a lot of the men in Westeros (including Tywin) view Valyrian steel swords as a source of pride and prestige rather than being 'magical', though. Then again, Tywin dismissed Varys's whispers of a three-headed dragon born in the east, and though it sounded like a silly fairy tale to the King's Council, we know the truth of it. So I guess the magic of Westeros is going to be there whether people believe it or not.

[Mixta]

Correct me if I'm wrong - I don't have AGOT in front of me at the moment, but doesn't Sam say house Tarly has a VS sword and his father didn't want him to inherit it? Or was it just a regular named sword?

[Ran]

The sword, a Valyrian steel greatsword, is called Heartsbane.

[Arkh]

Is it possible that some of the swords have been melted down for the Citadel, given that maesters, acolytes, and novices forge Valyrian steel links for their chains?

[hnv]

Dawn is the sword I am waiting to make an appearnce

made from a fallen star shines and strong has VS

and from what I reckoned not every dayne lord can yield it you must be worthy

[Ran]

That's about it. Only a Dayne found worthy of it carries it and the office of Sword of the Morning.

[whisky127]

IIRC at the wedding feast,joffrey had the direwolf removed from the chalice(implying that the starks were no longer a great house)

what if some of the lesser houses WERE great houses 600 years ago? maybe thats how they got the swords

[Ser Kazaba Umber]

I like the theory that the iron throne is largely Valyrian steel.

When the Targs invaded their strength was not their army but their dragons. I suspect that Valyrian steel would be far more effective slicing through dragon scales than regular castle forged steel. Therefore the Targs would have an incentive to gather up valyrian steel weapons and render them harmless. Forging a throne out of it has the added symbolic power of placing the dragons above the swords the former rulers relied on.

[Daeron Targaryen]

I disagree about the Iron Throne being made largely of VS. It would be a terrible waste of swords that could be much better employed (such as given as gift to loyal bannermen, or prospective bannermene, who lack a valyrian steel sword). However it is likely that at least some of the Iron Throne's swords are made of VS. Aegon being willing to "destroy" a few VS swords of his foes to make his throne would be a strong sign of power by house Targaryen.

As for Valyrian Steel swords, there one thing that strikes me as weird: House Targaryen had two swords, Blackfyre (Aegon's sword) and Dark Sister (Visenya's), but there were three targs! Didn't Rhaenys have her own VS sword? Since Martin describes her as "a warrior and dragonrider in her own right" it would be fitting for her to be armed;and everything important about the targs is always linked to the number three. So I think it's strange that Rhaenys didn't have her own sword. I hope Martin will shed some light on this little mistery. Or someone could ask him at a convention/meeting or something.

I also remember a theory (probably by Ran) that Red Rain, House Drumm's sword and officialy stolen from another house, originally belonged to House Reyne (whose simbol was a red lion on gold). I like it, and I think that it is an interesting information worthy of mention in this thread.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Maybe there were other types of Valyrian Steel weapons, spears or axes or such that Visenya might have carried.

[Ran]

GRRM has said that the Targaryens had multiple Valyrian steel weapons at some point. Rhaenys may well have had a third weapon, but for the purposes of the description he provided Amok, he wanted her to be in a less martial context and so would not have mentioned it.

[Cendres]

IIRC a bannermen of Stannis is rumored to own a valyrian steel axe, Celtigar maybe ?

[TrueMetis]

Is it possible that some of the swords have been melted down for the Citadel, given that maesters, acolytes, and novices forge Valyrian steel links for their chains?

More likely they were made from lesser weapons like daggers and are being recycled when the maesters that have them die. The discipline you get a Valyrian steel link isn't a very popular discipline to begin with. So they wouldn't need much.