Why did Jamie kill Aerys?

[3idcrow]

Luckily, for once, it actually turned out to be the right decision. If it wasn't for Jaime's actions -- reckless though they were -- Daenerys would have never attacked Slavers Bay. You could argue that Jaime emancipated the slaves of Meereen! In fact, that's probably how he's going to put it down in that White Book later when he hears about it.

Or, taking it one step further, “Stimulated Targaryen restoration by slaying King Aerys”? :D

[Quoth]

Wasn't Jaime present at the "Stark Roast"? It was my impression that his thinking was a "Holy crap, he's gonna torch the whole city...?!" coupled with a first hand knowledge that the King was barking at the moon crazy and a really, really bad guy lead to the slaying.

[Rockroi]

Wasn't Jaime present at the "Stark Roast"? It was my impression that his thinking was a "Holy crap, he's gonna torch the whole city...?!" coupled with a first hand knowledge that the King was barking at the moon crazy and a really, really bad guy lead to the slaying.

My thoughts on the "Why did Jaime Slay Aerys" discussion are well documented in Alexia's previous thread and I am not going to bore people with my retelling (Crib Note Version: Aerys was a horrible person, intent on doing horrible things to decent people, so Jaime took it upon himself to do what EVERYONE ELSE IN THE REALM was PERFECTLY HAPPY TO DO! KILL AERYS! Ned walks in and starts judging Jaime because that's what Ned is good for: judging other people. But it does not change the fact that Jaime did a good deed when it was THE MOST CRITICAL time to do it! And as Robert said, SOMEBODY had to kill Aerys; why NOT Jaime? And the alternative is LAUGHABLE should somebody have stumbled upon Aerys and then delivered the order to "Light this candle"- what would Jaime's defense have been, "But Your Honor, I swore and oath to protect the King, and THAT was why I failed to warn everyone that the city could 'go Boom.'" Oh, and Ned is a judgmental nit.)

ANYWAY, I wanted to address the quote above: Jaime was deeply affected by the deaths of Rickon and Brandon Stark. In the two books we have seen Jaime's POV, he talks about it openly with another character TWICE (SoS: Brienne; AFfC: Tommen). In CoK he talks about it openly with Cat "I stood there in my pretty white cloak and filled my head with the thoughts of Cersei. Gerold Hightower said after "You swore to protect the King, not to judge him" and he was a better knight than me, all agree." Pretty fucking fantastic swipe at Gerold there, a knight who, for some reason, has NEVER received the scorn I think he richly deserves.

But Jaime says to Tommen in AFfC that he learned how to "run away inside" when something bothers you; to, in effect, go dead inside. He's teaching Tommen a remarkable lesson (one, queerly enough, Ned Stark seems to have learned... all too well- I mean, can ANYONE "ran away inside" better than a man who DOES NOT EVEN THINK of his dying sister and Jon Snow in the same breath?). Jaime was crushed by Aerys the Mad; his sworn brothers all turned a deft, blind eye to him. So Jaime saw himself as (to turn a phrase) a true white knight, riding in to save the realm from the monster. With oozing wounds, long hair and talons. The fact that Jaime HATED Aerys....

... is such a good thing! It showed that Jaime had a capacity that his "sworn brothers" had lost! They all stopped hating Aerys! They could stand at the foot of the Iron Throne and "protect the King, not judge him." But WHO THE FUCK NEEDED MORE JUDGING than roast-happy Aerys Targaryen? How can you kill something like Aerys unless you hate what he does; hate how he hurts people; hates how he mutilates others; hates how he plans a petty and loathsome DISHONORABLE end like immolating a city and its people; hates how he rapes his wife; hates how he is warping the world to his awful will.

Where is the hate?

Those men in White LOST that ability. Not Jaime. That was a man in that armor, not a robot. Dayne was a robot- an honorable, decent, well-meaning robot who saw his King running amok and ... and what did he think? Apparently just enough to justify doing nothing... And what do we all get from that? A mad king and his nutzoid menagerie ready to burn cities.

So, if it hadn't been Jaime... can anyone tell Jaime, age 17, as he comes back from killing Roussart "Don't Do anything; everything will be fine... don't do anything... everything will be fine... just stand there....

... like you did with Rickard and Brandon."

[Mad Monkey]

Or, taking it one step further, “Stimulated Targaryen restoration by slaying King Aerys”? :D

Maybe so, but it hasn't happened yet so he can't really claim credit for it.

[raisin]

Crib Note Version: Aerys was a horrible person, intent on doing horrible things to decent people, so Jaime took it upon himself to do what EVERYONE ELSE IN THE REALM was PERFECTLY HAPPY TO DO! KILL AERYS! Ned walks in and starts judging Jaime because that's what Ned is good for: judging other people. But it does not change the fact that Jaime did a good deed when it was THE MOST CRITICAL time to do it! And as Robert said, SOMEBODY had to kill Aerys; why NOT Jaime? And the alternative is LAUGHABLE should somebody have stumbled upon Aerys and then delivered the order to "Light this candle"- what would Jaime's defense have been, "But Your Honor, I swore and oath to protect the King, and THAT was why I failed to warn everyone that the city could 'go Boom.'" Oh, and Ned is a judgmental nit.

I don't think Ned was all judgmental because Aerys died... I mean, the guy had killed Ned's father and brother and Ned had just fought a war against him. I think he was a little judgmental about the fact that Jaime broke his vow to protect to the king (considering that his next vow was to protect Ned's best friend, can you really blame him for being distrustful?), but what really bothered Ned about that whole thing was Jaime's response to it. It looked like he'd killed Aerys to take his place, and he was pretty nonchalant about it.

I know Jaime had every reason to kill the guy, but I don't think reason much factored into it. Jaime saw Aerys as a problem, saw that he had the opportunity to fix it, and fixed it. Explaining it to people came later.

[Yakman]

ya gotta remember, he's like 17 at the time.

he'd seen the king's villainy and cruelty laid bare, knew that with a word to the right man the king could kill thousands, and he's in the heat of battle.

I can't see why he wouldn't have killed Aerys.

[3idcrow]

ANYWAY, I wanted to address the quote above: Jaime was deeply affected by the deaths of Rickon and Brandon Stark.

So, if it hadn't been Jaime... can anyone tell Jaime, age 17, as he comes back from killing Roussart "Don't Do anything; everything will be fine... don't do anything... everything will be fine... just stand there....

... like you did with Rickard and Brandon."

I couldn't agree with it more!

And, on a side note, did we notice that our badass Jaime doesn't actually enjoy cruelty? He hated Aerys for what he did with Starks, he hated him for raping his wife, he did't find Brienne vs Bear amusing, he didn't approve of what was done to Edmure... Bran, of course, it all comes back to Bran. But I didn't get an impression he enjoyed hurting him either. He did it for necessity, not for pleasure.

[Snowmelter]

IMHO Jamie killed the Mad King because the Mad King needed killing. He saw the horrible things that were done (LOL @ "stark roast" reference above). He was 17 years old. He did what he thought was right and damn the consequences, which is pretty much the story of Jamie Lannister's life. It's why I love and hate the character.

[Quoth]

Coincidentally, I was rereading a passage from AFFC. Jaime is standing guard at Tywin's funeral and reminiscing about the last time he spoke to Rhaegar.

Jaime is pleading to go with Rhaegar as he starts to ride to the Trident, and, as he notes, to his doom. Rhaegar explains Aerys' reasoning for insisting Jaime stay at the Red Keep (with Aerys). Other Kingsguards essentiall chime in saying "You vowed to obey. So, shut up and stay put".

Then Rhaegar says something to Jaime that now strikes me as odd [paraphrase] "When all this is done, we'll talk. I intend to call a Council. There will be changes made." [/end paraphrase] Hmmm...

This naturally assumes Rhaegar believed the Targs would be triumphant and that Aerys would still be on the throne. ...Or does it? Maybe plans were already afoot. [cue conspiracy music.]

1.) OK, I don't recall, but let's say Rhaegar served on Aerys council. Don't recall it being stated, but let's go with that. Do council members have the ability to "call a council" to effectuate "changes"? What changes could Rhaegar force? He's a Prince. Aerys is and, assuming victory and no plot, would still be the king.

2.) What in the world could his comments to Jaime mean? I doubt it meant "Chill dude. When I get back I'll arrange for you to be my personal bodyguard and we can spend all our time writing poetry and gathering flowers. Renly's not the only operator in the realm, you know". No, it much more sounds like Rhaegar knew something had to be done about Aerys. If so, it's ironic that, absent the wildfire angle, Jaime might not actually have needed to off Aerys. Rhaegar might've already been on the case.

Erm... excuse the partial threadjack.

[Rockroi]

Raisin

I think he (Ned) was a little judgmental about the fact that Jaime broke his vow to protect to the king (considering that his next vow was to protect Ned's best friend, can you really blame him for being distrustful?), but what really bothered Ned about that whole thing was Jaime's response to it. It looked like he'd killed Aerys to take his place, and he was pretty nonchalant about it.

Again, both tend to show that Ned is judgmental. I think Ned has every right in the world to want Aerys dead. But to then transverse that idea and say "But its okay if YOU killed him..." The rational is threadbare. Ned states that Jaime "swore an oath." That's all fine and good, but as Jaime so eloquently states in CoK to Cat, he swears so many oaths that they conflict. That conflict of duties is at the heart of the conflict between almost every character in ASoIaF. I mean, look at Ned. Isn't PART of the reason we all love Ned is because he is conflicted between Jon Snow and Lyanna Stark and the oaths he swore? Look at Baristan Selmy: he swore oaths to Robert AND Aerys and now Dany. Arya is in the House of the Undying trying to rectify being "no one" but at the same time being Arya Stark (to the point where she hides Needle- she can go naked, but she cannot leave that person behind). Robb Stark basically sunk his whole rule because he was conflicted between the woman he loved and the alliance he forged. By contrast, some of the most DESPISED characters are the ones that have no apparent conflicts, and who act with solemn determinations irrespective of any actual or moral conflicts: Tywin, Cersei, Gregor, Euron Crow-Eye.

Its that CONFLICT that makes them real.

With Jaime, his whole identity seems to be splattered in the blood of that conflict. He LOVES being a knight, but slew Aerys; he loves his sister, but is denied her; he wants to protect the weak, but hates weakness. But Jaime ALWAYS EMBRACED THAT CONFLICT; Ned denied it to his dying breath. That duality drove both men (I have always stated that the reason Ned HATED Jaime so much was because Jaime reminded Ned of himself... and with REALLY good reason).

Jaime never intended on taking Aerys' place. He sat his ass on the Iron Throne; that was all. He waited to see who would come and judge him, and it was Ned. Ned NEVER bothered to ask Jaime anything. He just looked down upon him. Its what Ned does. He is remarkably judgmental about people who do not live up to his... sometimes stupefying ... standards of honor. And that's a shame.

I know Jaime had every reason to kill the guy, but I don't think reason much factored into it. Jaime saw Aerys as a problem, saw that he had the opportunity to fix it, and fixed it. Explaining it to people came later.

To me that's all reason enough. And to Jaime as well.

IMHO Jamie killed the Mad King because the Mad King needed killing.

I LOVE Jerry Spence!

[The SmilingKnight]

He just looked down upon him. Its what Ned does. He is remarkably judgmental about people who do not live up to his... sometimes stupefying ... standards of honor. And that's a shame.

No, i wouldnt agree that that scene shows a character feature of Eddard Stark.

Its just a personal dislike that came to surface in that case and make him "judge Jaime".

It seems that their personal animosity ran very deep.

I see that scene as one mistake Eddard did - which doesnt mean he is "judgemental" or whatever.

People can make mistakes and still that doesnt mean they "are like that".

Jaime threw Bran out of the window but that doesnt make him an insane child-killer through and through. He doesnt go around killing children.

Let mistakes be just what they are and not character defining things.

btw you got a plus from me on that post above.

2.) What in the world could his comments to Jaime mean? I doubt it meant "Chill dude. When I get back I'll arrange for you to be my personal bodyguard and we can spend all our time writing poetry and gathering flowers. Renly's not the only operator in the realm, you know". No, it much more sounds like Rhaegar knew something had to be done about Aerys. If so, it's ironic that, absent the wildfire angle, Jaime might not actually have needed to off Aerys. Rhaegar might've already been on the case.

Most likely Rhaegar would proclaim Aerys mad and remove him from power, taking over.

[Quoth]

Most likely Rhaegar would proclaim Aerys mad and remove him from power, taking over.

Now, this turns fairly messy. Rhaegar's not going to simply stand up one day at Court and bring this teensy point up. Presumably, he's spoken to others about this? There are co-conspirators supporting the position? Already at work? Circles within circles...

[dolorouseddwasright]

Does Rhaegar need to proclaim Aerys mad and remove him from power? Maybe Rhaegar was going to let Aerys think he was still in control but have everybody going to Rhaegar first before doing what Aerys commanded. Depending on how distractable Aerys is in his madness they could try to convince him his plans are being carried out, or just not do things and he may not even notice.

Or Rhaegar may have been planning a more "permanent" solution to the Aerys problem. Does anybody think Rhaegar had it in him to off his old man? He did seem to be the type to do things because he thought that was what he needed to do even if it wasn't something he wanted to do. He became a warrior because it seemed he must become a warrior. Maybe he was planning an accident for daddy because that was necessary and Rhaegar always does what is necessary.

[jurble]

Rhaegar probably would've called a Great Council of Lords and such, and have himself declared Regent on account of his father's mental issues. Forcing Aerys out of the throne would have been too politically new. Think of King George III.

[Alexia]

I thought Rhaegar was making plans to call a Parliament (doesn't Westeros have some equivalent?) to name him Regent and strip Aerys of power.

[Quoth]

Does Rhaegar need to proclaim Aerys mad and remove him from power? Maybe Rhaegar was going to let Aerys think he was still in control but have everybody going to Rhaegar first before doing what Aerys commanded. Depending on how distractable Aerys is in his madness they could try to convince him his plans are being carried out, or just not do things and he may not even notice.

Or Rhaegar may have been planning a more "permanent" solution to the Aerys problem. Does anybody think Rhaegar had it in him to off his old man? He did seem to be the type to do things because he thought that was what he needed to do even if it wasn't something he wanted to do. He became a warrior because it seemed he must become a warrior. Maybe he was planning an accident for daddy because that was necessary and Rhaegar always does what is necessary.

Rhaegar probably would've called a Great Council of Lords and such, and have himself declared Regent on account of his father's mental issues. Forcing Aerys out of the throne would have been too politically new. Think of King George III.

I thought Rhaegar was making plans to call a Parliament (doesn't Westeros have some equivalent?) to name him Regent and strip Aerys of power.

Pretty gutsy regardless of the method. Unless there was universal support, plunging the kingdom into another civil war right after settling the current one is dicey. Let's face it, a man planning on annihilating King's Landing isn't going to go quietly.

[The SmilingKnight]

Im quite sure Rheagar wasnt aiming to do it alone.

We have some pointers that atleast some of the Kingsguard were on his side, in a manner of speaking (Tower of Joy business) but surely he also had quite a few other Lords too.

No reason to doubt this. He wasnt stupid and he was well liked.

Aerys madness was fairly well know by then too.

Since he was his father it would be easiest to proclaim him mad (which was true) and unfit to rule. Im sure Rhaegar would attempt to solve it in this more peaceful manner rather then killing his father and in the case Aerys wanted to take the whole thing with him... im sure he would have fell over onto Jaime sword - again.

Stupid Robert spoiled all that.

[raisin]

Rockroi,

I have to disagree here. It wasn't until I got Jaime POVs that I started to like (or believe) the character much at all, as before he looked to all the world like some mustachio-twirling villain. And reason is pretty simple: that's what he projects to the world. Yes, we find out that his character is full of conflict, and he actually manages to show some of that to Catelyn and a bit more to Brienne, but this came much later.

Coming back to Ned in that throne room... The bit he felt he needed to confess to Robert was finding Jaime on the throne and his little joke as he left it. This is what really upset Ned, and he hoped it would upset Robert. Jaime didn't look like some impulsive teenager that had made any sort of difficult decision that day and betrayed his king and brotherhood. (And really, if Ned asked Jaime "ANYTHING", you think Jaime would have been honest? Really?) Between Jaime's exceedingly chill demeanor on the throne and Tywin's sack of KL, seasoned with a little anti-Lannister bias, it absolutely looked like a coordinated Lannister power play. Throw Cersei in Robert's bed, and I had no doubts they'd all conspired together on this. It wasn't until we actually got Jaime's account (much later) that it became clear that his part wasn't planned.

This is because Jaime totally doesn't advertise his good side. I think he would like to appear to all the world as utterly immoral Jaime "Throws Kids Out of Towers" Lannister. It seems to actually bother him that he cares what anyone thinks of him. He wants not to care about what's right and wrong, and has only recently come to accept that he does care. In this sense, the only connection I'd draw between him and Ned is that on the outside, they're basically exact opposites of each other.

I don't think either of them identified with the other in the throne room. I think it's pretty much the opposite; they couldn't understand what they saw in the other man. Ned couldn't understand Jaime's nonchalance, and Jaime couldn't understand why Ned wasn't thanking him.

This shook them both, obviously, but I tend to think that it wasn't until then that Jaime put much thought into why he'd killed Aerys. The simple fact that he gives us at least a handful of reasons (the "Stark Roast", the fire, the rapes of the queen, the way the KG turned a blind eye to it all) suggests to me that he really didn't have one when he swung the sword. He didn't ever think it out or weigh options or justify this to himself; he just acted. The justification started to come later, after he realized, looking at Ned Stark, that he wouldn't be a hero for what he'd done.

[jurble]

On the rapes the queen, you have to remember, as far as people are concerned in this era, it's impossible to rape your wife. Jaime is upset that Aerys is harming the queen, not that he's raping her.

[Mr Lynx]

"Between Jaime's exceedingly chill demeanor on the throne and Tywin's sack of KL, seasoned with a little anti-Lannister bias, it absolutely looked like a coordinated Lannister power play. Throw Cersei in Robert's bed, and I had no doubts they'd all conspired together on this"

Exactly. Besides can 17 years in the Westeros society be considered as 17 years in USA/European societies?