Putting Sansa on trial

[Crow's Eye]

What I'm saying is that having Sansa and Arya in safety would have been an enormous boon to Robb's campaign. There is no way Ned could be executed while Jaime was held hostage on the other side. If they held a trial and threatened him with execution, it would be an idle threat. It would have changed the whole flavour of the situation, removing the opportunity for Joffrey/Littlefinger to shorten Ned by a head.

This.

The pieces were already moving quickly toward war by the time Sansa told Cersei. Sure, maybe there would have been a way to avoid it had Sansa and Arya been safely shipped to Winterfell, but we simply don't know that. And the odds are definitely against it, for the many reasons stated above. Conflict of some sort was inevitable, and Ned was in the lion's den (ha!) regardless of Sansa/Arya.

But having "Arya" and Sansa as hostages throughout the War of the 5 Kings definitely hamstrung Robb. Not only did they hamper his dealings with the Lannisters, but he also couldn't marry them off to solidify alliances. How would Doran have reacted to a Trystane/Sansa proposal, with the reward being an alliance with the Starks and Tullys against their common enemy, the Lannisters? We won't know if that was ever possible.

[edited to add]

not to mention that leaving Sansa in the Lannisters' hands eventually gave them a legitimate claim on Winterfell, through Tyrion's marraige to her.

She betrayed her family, whether she intended to or not.

[Mad Monkey]

I feel that Ned was aware of the risks of accusing Cersei of incest and murder. I am constantly frustrated by the assumption that he is an idiot for telling her. He didn't tell her out of stupidity, he thought it was the right thing to do, even knowing how dangerous it was.

And knowing the dangers, he took precautions, i.e. buying the goldcloaks and arranging for his daughters to be taken to safety.

He should have made sure they were gone from the city and that he had the goldcloaks on his side before telling Cersei. I appreciate the sentiment; it was the right thing to do ethically speaking. The correct way to do that would be to deport Cersei and her children with a lot of money to the Free Cities, not eventually but immediately. Don't wait for Cersei to decide when to leave. Don't let her plot and scheme against you -- especially when you think that she already killed the last person who tried to say this to her. Just get rid of her and her kids as fast as possible.

If that's impossible, get your kids back home first. Arranging for the ship is cool and all, but if the kids aren't on it and it hasn't left port then you might as well just chain them up in their rooms for Meryn Trant to arrest.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The thing is, Ned knew he was being watching by Cersei's people. The moment he got Sansa and Arya on a ship would have tipped them off as to when we was going to make his move.

So he had to time it just right, have his children get on the ship at the same time he was making his move against Cersei, so as to keep his element of surprise. Which is why Arya was packing her belonging and getting ready to leave for the ship at the same time as Ned went to the throne room.

The problem was, his carefully planned timing was completely screwed up by Sansa who gave away his timing to Cersei and had her ready for his move. Although he probably would have lost the confrontation with Cersei anyway, I think had Sansa not gone to Cersei and obeyed her father she and Arya would probably have made it on the ship back to Winterfell.

[Alexia]

Which is why Arya was packing her belonging and getting ready to leave for the ship at the same time as Ned went to the throne room.

Sorry, fail. Arya was playing with Syrio when Ned was in the throne room.

And his timing was not "carefully planned." A couple days before that went down, he thinks to himself that since he's made arrangements for his children to leave, he can't use their safety as an excuse anymore. I want a citation where he carefully plans the timing of the ship's departure.

Ned did not think he needed the element of surprise against Cersei. He thought he had 5,000 goldcloaks supporting him and that Cersei would roll belly-up on his say-so. Also, Sansa didn't really need to give away Ned's timing since LF and Janos were perfectly aware of it.

[Mad Monkey]

Ned did not think he needed the element of surprise against Cersei. He thought he had 5,000 goldcloaks supporting him and that Cersei would roll belly-up on his say-so. Also, Sansa didn't really need to give away Ned's timing since LF and Janos were perfectly aware of it. [/q uote]

I think I might be remembering this timeline wrong then. I remember Ned meeting with LF to get the goldcloaks after the first time he confronts Cersei (in her garden or whatever) and tells her to leave. I can't remember if he had already secured Arya and Sansa away then.

They seemed remarkably insecure though around that time. Arya just had Syrio Forel the dancing master with her, instead of, say, Lord Renly's soldiers or Eddard's own warriors.

I can appreciate an attempt to conceal his movements by making them simultaneous with his confrontation scene, but Eddard didn't do a very good job of it. This doesn't make him stupid; everybody makes mistakes all the time. But all it takes is one mistake that's big enough and your entire family is destroyed.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Sorry, fail. Arya was playing with Syrio when Ned was in the throne room.

Yes, for a final lesson, which Ned permitted, but he was clear that he wanted them to be on the ship by midday. Arya's stuff was already packed away and on a wagon even as they spoke for breakfast, and it was in the stable where Arya recovers Needle in the bottom of her packed away wooden chest.

The plan was clearly for them to leave while Ned was in the throne room, and probably the only reason they haven't left by the time the Goldcloaks came for her is because Ned's people were trying to locate Sansa who was nowhere to be found.

[Lady Blackfish]

The concept of betrayal without intent is so odd and useless to me. Sansa was wilfully ignorant, she trusted Cersei after Cersei proved herself malicious. But to continue to require her to "pay" for Ned's death at this point is so bizarre to me, I cannot even comprehend. If it was your little sister who did what Sansa did, you would really want her to feel guilty? You'd require her to atone?

Her father died, I think she's suffered enough. BTW I think Ned, being the one who knew the stakes in the situation, who didn't explain them to Sansa, is the one to take to task for the girls not being out of the city before he went to Cersei. Sansa disobeyed her father, sure, but you know, lots of kids do that. She ought to have known Cersei was not trustworthy, valid charge, but if Ned knows his daughter errs on the romantic (he is clearly cognizant of Sansa's incredible devotion to Joffrey) I think that it falls to him as the adult to plan around it.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Of course she suffered, but if she doesn't understand what it is that she did wrong, she's going to make other big mistakes in the future, and suffer some more.

That's the issue here, does Sansa see herself as a victim of circumstances, or does she realize that she was complicit in creating those circumstances. I personally do not think she appreciates how much her actions have cost her and her family, which is why it would not surprise me to see her make future blunders that I'd like for her to avoid.

[Lady Blackfish]

I don't think Sansa ever plotted out the cause and effect chain of her actions, no. But she clearly realizes that it was wrong to trust Joffrey and Cersei, she has a memorable chapter-ending line that explicitly states as much, and as far as I'm concerned her lesson is learned. This habit people have of holding people accountable for the entire chain of events resulting from one of their actions is weird to me, I don't think anyone would hold themselves to these standards. She saw her father die at the hands of people she trusted, I think she gets it well enough.

[Lord Godric]

He would die either way, confessing or not. If anything, he had a better changing of living by confessing than otherwise.And had they went to Winterfell, they would be under the care of Ramsay Bolton right now. Or married to a Frey (that would later kill their family).

I don't agree with any of this. If Sansa and Arya had gotten away and to Winterfell things would be different, not just for Ned but probably for the entire campaign of the King of the North. If Sansa and Arya were not trapped in King's Landing, Ned would not have confessed to the crimes of plotting against Joffrey, while that might not have saved his life it would have made things very different at Riverrun. Because Sansa and Arya were not hostages Catelyn never would have released Jaime and that bargaining chip would have gone a long way to prevent the Red Wedding.

I wouldn't say she is responsible for Ned's death, but there is an argument that she prolonged the war (which led to the Red Wedding).I feel that Ned was aware of the risks of accusing Cersei of incest and murder. I am constantly frustrated by the assumption that he is an idiot for telling her. He didn't tell her out of stupidity, he thought it was the right thing to do, even knowing how dangerous it was. And knowing the dangers, he took precautions, i.e. buying the goldcloaks and arranging for his daughters to be taken to safety. Sending Sansa and Arya back to the north was more than a father protecting his children, it was a tactician removing hostages from the game. Ned knew everything might go wrong, otherwise why arrange for the ship?What I'm saying is that having Sansa and Arya in safety would have been an enormous boon to Robb's campaign. There is no way Ned could be executed while Jaime was held hostage on the other side. If they held a trial and threatened him with execution, it would be an idle threat. It would have changed the whole flavour of the situation, removing the opportunity for Joffrey/Littlefinger to shorten Ned by a head.

Right, I agree.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't think Sansa ever plotted out the cause and effect chain of her actions, no. But she clearly realizes that it was wrong to trust Joffrey and Cersei, she has a memorable chapter-ending line that explicitly states as much, and as far as I'm concerned her lesson is learned. This habit people have of holding people accountable for the entire chain of events resulting from one of their actions is weird to me, I don't think anyone would hold themselves to these standards. She saw her father die at the hands of people she trusted, I think she gets it well enough.

And here is the problem. Her mistake was not that she trusted Joffrey and Cersei, that is the symptom, not the cause, her mistake was thinking that she knew better than her father whom to trust.

Of course she didn't plot out the cause and effect chain of her actions, 13 year olds rarely do. Her mistake was that despite not being aware enough of the real world to know the consequences of her actions, she choose to ignore and disobey the person that loved her and did think out the longer ramification of her actions. That's the essence of her betrayal, thinking she had the world figured out and didn't trust her father. Unfortunately, the world doesn't cut you slack because you're 13, the consequences are just as bad as if you're 60. Until she takes full responsibility for what her bad decisions have cost her and her family, she's a danger to herself and her family because she might do more of the same in the future.

[Alexia]

The plan was clearly for them to leave while Ned was in the throne room, and probably the only reason they haven't left by the time the Goldcloaks came for her is because Ned's people were trying to locate Sansa who was nowhere to be found.

I request a citation. I don't recall Ned's plan being that well thought out at all.

But she clearly realizes that it was wrong to trust Joffrey and Cersei, she has a memorable chapter-ending line that explicitly states as much, and as far as I'm concerned her lesson is learned. This habit people have of holding people accountable for the entire chain of events resulting from one of their actions is weird to me, I don't think anyone would hold themselves to these standards. She saw her father die at the hands of people she trusted, I think she gets it well enough.

:agree:

Sansa may have played a minor part in what happened, but certain other players such as Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Tywin, and others played a far greater role in what happened. And she HAS learned her lesson - she's afraid even to reveal her identity to Lord Royce at this point.

Her mistake was not that she trusted Joffrey and Cersei, that is the symptom, not the cause, her mistake was thinking that she knew better than her father whom to trust.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

A cookie to whomever knows who said this! The point being, Sansa is hardly unique in believing she knows better than her elders.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I request a citation. I don't recall Ned's plan being that well thought out at all.

" 'A short lesson, and make sure you leave yourself time to bathe and change. I want you ready to leave by midday, is that understood.'"

This was breakfast time. Then afterwards Ned was alone for an hour, then he met with Pycelle, then he met with Littlefinger, then he and Littlefinger made their way to the Throne room. Given Ned's broken leg it could easily be noon by the time Ned reached the throne room.

And we see from Sansa's POV that after she went the Cersei she was put under Arys Oakheart's watch in Maegor's holdfast, which means Ned's people who were supposed to take both her and Arya to the ship couldn't leave.

Sansa may have played a minor part in what happened, but certain other players such as Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Tywin, and others played a far greater role in what happened. And she HAS learned her lesson - she's afraid even to reveal her identity to Lord Royce at this point.

The difference was that many of those people did what they thought was right at the time. Sansa did not, she even said to herself as she was doing it "it was the more wicked thing she's every done". Her conscience knew what she did was wrong, she did it any way. This is why it's a betrayal, not just a mistake.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

A cookie to whomever knows who said this! The point being, Sansa is hardly unique in believing she knows better than her elders.

No, she's not unique, but there are plenty of people who never learn this lesson. And unfortunately she does not have even 7 years to figure this out, she has to figure it out soon, or it might be too late.

[Alexia]

" 'A short lesson, and make sure you leave yourself time to bathe and change. I want you ready to leave by midday, is that understood.'"

This was breakfast time. Then afterwards Ned was alone for an hour, then he met with Pycelle, then he met with Littlefinger, then he and Littlefinger made their way to the Throne room. Given Ned's broken leg it could easily be noon by the time Ned reached the throne room.

I just pulled the chapter. Ha!

No, he was alone for an hour. Then Pycelle came to his chambers. They talked for about 5 minutes (unless there's a ton of conversation GRRM saw fit to not share with us) and immediately called the council (no dicussion with LF). Then, Cersei called them to come meet with her and...pawned. I would say that all took place less than two hours after his conversation with Sansa and Arya - which is why she was still practicing with Syrio, instead of all changed and studying herself in the mirror on her way out the door.

Even better...Ned did not intend to do anything other than establish his authority as regent that day.

The need for deceit was a bitter taste in his mouth, but Ned knew he must tread softly here, must keep his counsel and play the game until he was firmly established as regent. There would be time enough to deal with the succession when Arya and Sansa were safely back in Winterfell, and Lord Stannis had returned to King's Landing with all his power.

Completely stupidity of the plans aside (Lord Stannis, indeed!) this clearly establishes that he did not intend to make his move with the element of surprise, Arya was not packing at the time Ned went to the throne room, and it most certainly was NOT noon when Ned and the council met. I suggest a reread.

[Lady Blackfish]

And here is the problem. Her mistake was not that she trusted Joffrey and Cersei, that is the symptom, not the cause, her mistake was thinking that she knew better than her father whom to trust.

Ahh yes, she disobeyed the awesome Ned Stark, quelle crime. You know, kids disobey their parents all the time, I know I did. All. the. time. To this day I have never gone up to them and said "You know that time you said not to take the car out and I totally did anyway and got in an accident off the exit ramp, yeah well I'm sorry, you were right guys!" I never said it, but I never did it again. I got it, they got that I got it, it was fine.*

Her mistake was that despite not being aware enough of the real world to know the consequences of her actions, she choose to ignore and disobey the person that loved her and did think out the longer ramification of her actions.

Funny thing about awareness is that you don't know what you don't know, and while there's an argument to be made that you have a duty to inform yourself anyway, I don't think most would make that argument for an 11 year old. Kids learn through mistakes, it's rough but it's life. And I think the world does actually cut kids more slack than adults? Don't most people outside of this at times extremely odd fandom? In ASOIAF the narrative is blind to age, sure, but so what? Just because it has plot consequences doesn't mean she's not still just a kid.

And Sansa might be dangerous, but so is everyone. Everyone is capable of making decisions that have long-reaching negative consequences, whether or not they disobeyed the decoy protagonist. Her recognition of that may affect her decision-making, but it's not required as atonement. She understood that she laid her trust in the wrong place, clearly she thinks it was the wrong thing to do, implying that she realizes it had negative consequences. I don't understand what more is necessary in terms of karma or atonement, and as for prevention, you'd have to tie every character up if you wanted to prevent further crap, that's really the only way. I can guarantee you that in the future Sansa will not be the only one causing negative effects, if she'll be causing anything at all.

* And indeed, the biggest lesson I learned was not to let my windshield fog up and if I have to merge lanes then roll down the window if I have to but never never do it blindly. The disobedience itself was a secondary concern to the life skill in my parents' judgment. I sure don't think Ned Stark's ghost would come to haunt Sansa saying "I hope you know better now than to disobey me", of all things.

[The Mance]

Her mistake was that despite not being aware enough of the real world to know the consequences of her actions, she choose to ignore and disobey the person that loved her and did think out the longer ramification of her actions.

Exactly! It's her fault for not knowing that she didn't know something that she couldn't have known she didn't know.

:rolleyes:

I've never understood how people get from Sansa being naive and uninformed but ultimately acting in innocence, to "she betrayed her entire family". As far as she's been told, or has any reason to think, everything that is happening between her and her Dad, or between Ned and Cersei is ultimately tied to her betrothal to Joff. She has no clue about poisonings, or treasonous adulteries, or illegitimate heirs, or kidnappings, or murders in retributions for kidnappings, or any of that. All she knows is that she was brought south to eventually be married to the crown prince, and that maybe that isn't working out so hot.

From her perspective, her Dad seems to have decided that her future husband is a bit of a dick, and that now that the king is dead marrying her into a family of assholes may not be such a good idea after all, and so it's back to cold dreary Winterfell for her. And thats as far as her understanding goes. She's never had the depth of the situation explained to her. And she's got no reason to think that anything she might say to anyone could or would lead to anything worse than more hurt feelings. Nor do i think that she necessarily understands that their departure is supposed to be a secret. Hasty sure, but a big secret with life or death consequences for discovery where it constitutes betrayal even for mentioning? I don't see that.

[Amae Koromo]

Sansa takes a lot of crap simply because people dislike her.

Take that case of Arya and her 3 death wishes. If it was Sansa and not Arya... And she didn't ask for Tywin and Gregor (as was the case of Arya)... People would be blaming her for the death of Robb and for not looking at the big picture, but rather killing people for petty reasons.

Some people complain about her "inactivity" on KL... When she could do nothing at all to improve her situation and faking emotions was the best someone could do in her place.

[Mad Monkey]

You know, kids disobey their parents all the time, I know I did. All. the. time.

You'd probably feel like shit though if you disobeyed your parents and they ended up being brutally slaughtered.

Not that I blame Sansa for that, but I can imagine how someone would feel guilty if they even thought that their actions -- however common or normal -- caused the violent deaths of every single person in their entire family.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Of course kids disobey their parents, but when you're the daughter of House Stark, or any of the major houses, there is a different set of rules.

A normal kid disobeys his parents, not that much bad can happen. She does, and her family gets killed. Because the world doesn't care that you're a kid, the world will still make you and your family pay for your mistakes.

You cannot judge Sansa by the standards your judge a normal kid in our world. Her position in that world means much great responsibility on her and requires her to act more responsibly. Because the price of not doing so is so great that she simply has to not make those type of mistakes.

Kind of like the stories you read about in war torn countries when the 9 year old who was orphaned has to take care of his 5 year old younger sibling, and somehow manages to do it. What if that 9 year old decide to abandon the 5 year old, then he would have betrayed his younger sibling, and I assume people will say "you can't expect a 9 year old to raise another child." Well, not in a normal situation, of course not. But in an extraordinary situation, I absolutely expect the 9 year old to do it. Just as I would expect Sansa not to betray her family.

[ioang]

Wow, some people here are pretty harsh! She was a naive little girl, no more. She couldn't believe that the external beauty of a Queen could hide an evil interior. She believed the legends and stories, that's her only crime.