Wise Man's Fear Spoilers Thread (SPOILERS)

[TeaSpoon]

Holy shit! I didn't see that at all!

[Pufferfish123]

Holy shit! I didn't see that at all!

I didn't notice it at all when I first read the book... I just thought "ok, so Kvothe's dad seems to be refering to his mother with two different names in a song that makes little sense, no wonder the mother thought it was rubbish".

It was only when I got on here and noticed that Meluan's sister was called Netalia that I remembered 'Hey, didn't the song about Kvothe's mother mention a Tally?'

[jurble]

My first post here, after lurking for a while... I really enjoyed the book, I though it was definately an improvement on The Name of The Wind.

I just wanted to point out the evidence for Meluan being Kvothe's aunt in the song that Kvothe tells Sim and Will his father wrote about his mother, which confused the hell out of me when I first read it but now makes a lot of sense:

Dark Laurian, Arliden's wife,

Has a face like a blade of a knife

Has a voice like a prickledown burr

But can tally a sum like a moneylender.

My sweet Tally cannot cook.

But she keeps a tidy ledger-book

For all her faults I do confess

It's worth my life

To make my wife

Not tally a lot less...

The song implies that he calls his wife Tally because she's good with numbers, but the much more likely reason is because Tally is short for Netalia... furthermore, the last three lines can basically be read as "It's worth my life to make my wife Netalia Lockless". It seems likely that the real reason Kvothe's mother made his father sleep under the wagon after he made that song is not because it had a bad meter as Kvothe claims but because it gave away her identity as Netalia Lockless.

damn brah, you good

New question:

Has Kvothe, by the present era, put 2+2 together?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Also, funny thing I noticed. The Mear's name is Rand Alveron. Rand al'Veron

There was also a Tam, and the Adem were a little too Aiel-ish. Does anyone know if PR has read WoT?

Several of many WOT references. The entire fighting style of the Adem is pulled straight from WOT, for example. I kept expecting some Adem person to be named blademaster.

Another thing - although the Adem were cool and all, the fact that their fighting style was pulled from WOT and their whole language revolved around VERY Abraham-esque "poses" (as cool a concept as that is) made them a bit of a cop-out to me.

There's no need for asexual reproduction to explain that fear, they're drawn to each other.

In TNotW, it is explained that they are drawn to any piece - this is how Kvothe gets them to attack him.

Plus, did anyone notice the small bit of evidence that Elodin was still at the University? Chronicler talks about him, and the conversation implies that Elodin continues as Master Namer.

Chronicler studied at the University before Kvothe, as evidenced by the fact that "The Mating Habits of the Common Dracchus" was one of the first books that Kvothe read in the library.

ETA: General impressions

Great book, dragged in a few places. Also, for a smart kid, Kvothe is one of the dumbest characters ever. He continually, constantly says the stupidest and most contrived things to answer the slightest provocation. Also, I know that it didn't turn out this way, but why didn't he even consider that perhaps Ambrose was using some Vintish noble to lure him into a trap when the Maer's letter arrived?

(Granted, Threpe would have known, and been able to explain it. But it never even crosses Kvothe's mind.)

[TeaSpoon]

Ahh, interesting. The losers of the creation war being sealed behind doors of stone becomes more important.

Are you sure that's what happened? Evidence seems to point to the shapers winning. They have their own little pocket universe filled to the brim with magic and they got to keep the moon, even though the namers wanted it back. Compare this to the mortal world, where naming has been relegated to children's stories. And remember how Lanre and his chandrians caused the last remaining cities to fall? All the cities of the namers were destroyed with the sole exception of Aleph's city.

As for stone doors, the waystones/greystones are stone doors, beyond which lie the lands of fearie. Maybe the doors of stone is a portal to yet another pocket dimension that serves as a prison. Waystones are lockless and without handles or hinges. Or maybe each waystone corresponds to a certain location in Fearie, and the one on Lackless lands go to a location in Fearie that is inaccessible to the Fean from their side.

The right time refers to the full moon, when Fearie draws closest to the mortal world.

The fact that Lockless blood opens the door suggests that they serve as guards. Maybe the Lockless are or were once part of the Amyr. The Whatshisname, the talking tree did say that the Mear would lead Kvothe to the Amyr. Maybe he already did.

I boggled at the thought of a family older than empires. "So the Lockless family became the Lackless family? What reason could a family have for changing its name?"

"There are historians who would cut off their own right hands to answer that," Caudicus said. "It's generally accepted that there was some sort of falling out that splintered the family. Each piece took on a separate name. In Atur they became the Lack-key family.They were numerous, but fell on hard times. That's where the word 'lackey' comes from, you know. All those paupered nobility forced to scrape and bow to make ends meet.

The reason could be the proclamation by the church outlawing the Amyr. Kvothe and the Mear postulated that the Amyr went into hiding. And if the Lockless are part of the Amyr, it would go a long way in explaining the Loeclos Box. I'm now certain that it contains a Scrael.

"What's inside it?"

I thought for a long moment before saying anything. "Something smaller than a saltbox...." I began. Meluan smiled, but Alveron gave the barest of frowns so I hurried on. "Something metal, by the way the weight shifts when I tilt it." I closed my eyes and listened to the padded thump of its contents moving in the box. "No. By the weight of it, perhaps something made of glass or stone." - Chapter 139, The Wise Man's Fear

Compare this to the description of the Scrael in Name of the Wind,

Moving carefully, the innkeeper took one of the long, smooth legs and tried to break it with both hands like a stick. "Not pottery," he amended. He set it against the edge of the table and leaned his weight against it. It broke with a sharp crack. "More like stone." He looked up at Carter. "How did it get all these cracks?" He pointed at the thin fractures that crazed the smooth black surface of the body.

Of course, that same chapter also describes the Scrael as being as large as a wagon wheel, but that can refer to the length of the legs or maybe the Scrael inside the box grew or something. Anyway, who would keep something as dangerous as the Scrael locked away for later use? Maybe the same people who could justify experimenting on and killing 20,000 people to further medicine.

Ruthlessness runs in the family, I think. Kvothe has no problem killing people for the greater good, to save two girls and to protect the good name of the Edema Ruh. He used sympathy to kill enemy soldiers, leaving his hands drenched in blood. And Meluan has no problem with genocide, even if her reasons are racist.

[EDIT] I just thought of something. We never got an explanation for why Caudicus was trying to poison the Mear. The Mear, who studied the Amyr when he was younger, is trying to marry the heir to the Lackless estates, where the Amyr is keeping their stuff. Maybe Caudicus was an Amyr trying to keep the Mear away from their secrets.

And Caudicus was the one who's the most intimate with Lockless history. He would be, if he was an Amyr.

[RogueSock]

Regarding Mr. Ashe...

I don't think Cinder is Ashe at all.

After reading this book I believe Bredon is Denna's Patron.

Denna explained that he had dealings with the Maer, and that with the circles Kvothe has been in, he has already likely met him.

-Bredon enjoys playing games, Mr. Ashe thinks of beating Denna as a "game", the twisted sick bastard.

-Mr. Ashe and Bredon both have a cane.

-Mr. Ashe and Bredon both have white hair.

-Bredon told Kvothe he just took up dancing, Denna said Mr. Ashe is a surprising good dancer.

-The rumors of his Bredon's "rituals in the woods" goes along nicely with Mr. Ashe being at the wedding.

-Why spend such a large amount of time on a character that does not have a backstory given, if not to signify such a betraying and dramatic revelation.

I saw that there were a couple posts regarding Bredon as Ashe. This is a post I made under a review and wanted to hear everyone's thoughts.

So far loving this thread!

[RogueSock]

Now what are your thoughts on Denna?

I was hoping we would finally discover her history in WMF, alas my wait continues. But I feel this book has introduced a large piece to her puzzle.

-Denna allows herself to be beaten. Furthermore Cthaeh tells us that she thinks that’s all she is good for, so she continues to go back to him.

Obviously Denna does not think highly of herself, from NOTW she wonders if her being alive is a mistake, and from WMF she believes she deserves to be punished.

So I ask myself, what could possibly make her think these things?

Denna feels guilty about something monumental. I believe people died and she lived, perhaps her family or village. Furthermore I believe she was taken captive, like the girls in WMF, but did not escape so quickly. She could also feel guilty because she feels/was part of the cause of those deaths.

This explains her “like looking in a mirror” of the girl in the alley, her desire to not be tied down or “owned” by any man, and her behavior and choices reflecting her lack of self respect.

Elodin made some good suggestions regarding a girl who changes her name frequently as well:

1. “It could indicate she doesn’t know who she is.”

2. “Or that she does know, and doesn’t like it.”

3. “It could indicate restlessness and dissatisfaction.

4. “It could mean she changes her name with the hope it might help her be a different person.”

Denna is one confused girl, lost even. We know she is trying to go somewhere, but even she does not know where that is. At this point it could be with Kvothe (my hopeful vote), or with Mr. Ashe who desires the Chandrean to be seen as heroes.

This may lead to the betrayal that crushes Kvothe.

Before I finish I want to include The Stone Story that Denna tells Kvothe:

“This is the story of a girl who came to the water with the boy. They talked and the boy threw the stones as if casting them away from himself. The girl didn’t have any stones, so the boy gave her some. Then she gave herself to the boy, and he cast her away as he would a stone, unmindful of any falling she might feel.”

“Is it a sad story then?” (Kvothe asked). “No not sad. But it was thrown once. It knows the feel of motion. It has trouble staying the way most stones do. It takes the offer that the water makes and moves sometimes. When it moves it thinks about the boy.”

I for one want Denna and Kvothe to have a sit down and really talk, seriously. They both perceive each other as something likely to be scared off. They simply need to communicate. I want them to explain to each other their back stories. So they can see their similarities and help each other.

I also feel that Denna is referenced in the past tense on more than one occasion. This sucks, because unlike others I really like her. And I feel when I finally get what I want (their revealing chat), that she will be killed or something awful will happen (that betrayal).

I am excited to see PR's creativity will come up with.

Would love to hear your thoughts!

[Pufferfish123]

Is it possible that Denna was/is a whore? The way she talked to the girl in the tavern about it, she seemed to know a lot, and it would explain why she sleeps with rich men and sells the gifts they give her, as well as why she always says that Kvothe is 'different'.

[jurble]

She's a whore - a high-class one.

[RogueSock]

@Pufferfish

She absolutely is, Denna explained to the alley girl her way of life. I think Denna is careful but as she says "You will eventually get ridden".

But when the men become to pushy Denna leaves.

[TeaSpoon]

Another thing, Kvothe explains syaldry as written sympathy. Could Yllish story knots be a way to write true names? If it was possible to make names physical, it could have the properties Denna described. And writing "locked" or "lockless" on a box could make the box appear lidless.

[EDIT] Last post, I wrote a bunch of things about the Lackless Door and the Loeclos Box. See the following poems. The first is from Wise Man's Fear and the second is from Name of the Wind.

Seven things stand before

The entrance to the Lackless door.

One of them a ring unworn

One a word that is forsworn

One a time that must be right

One a candle without light

One a son who brings the blood

One a door that holds the flood

One a thing tight-held in keeping

Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

“Seven things has Lady Lackless

Keeps them underneath her black dress

One a ring that’s not for wearing

One a sharp word, not for swearing

Right beside her husband’s candle

There’s a door without a handle

In a box, no lid or locks

Lackless keeps her husband’s rocks

There’s a secret she’s been keeping

She’s been dreaming and not sleeping

On a road, that’s not for traveling

Lackless likes her riddle raveling.”

Now obviously the "ravelling" bit is about the Lackless heir running off with the Ruh, but I'm not so certain about the lines preceding. When I read that the first time, I didn't know about the Lackless door yet and I assumed this poem was mostly sexual innuendo I couldn't figure out. I still don't see how a "ring that's not for wearing" can be sexual.

Anyway, one poem offers clues about the other. The "One a thing tight-held in keeping" is the "secret she’s been keeping." And Kvothe is certainly full of secrets. "Then comes that which comes with sleeping." is "She’s been dreaming and not sleeping," which was obvious before and is now confirmed.

Another thing the poem tells us is that the box contains rocks. Or stones. Which fits with my theory that the Leoclos Box contains the Scrael.

[Pufferfish123]

She's a whore - a high-class one.

Does that mean Ambrose bought her then? Because if so, I'd really expect more reaction from Kvothe than simply trying to secrectly steal back her ring. Although maybe he didn't want Ambrose to know how he felt about Denna, which Ambrose would find out if Kvothe called him out about it?

Kvothe's reaction to the whole thing kinda confused me in the book... sure, he burned up Ambrose's room, but compared to the song he wrote about him in NotW for everone to hear it seems like he didn't really do much in revenge. Especially considering that Ambrose attacked him with his blood and everything...

[YellowDogJen]

Pufferfish - the catch with the poem was amazing! Bravo!

About Ambrose and revenge - wasn't it that Kvothe was hurt and had to lay low for awhile, and then that he went to the Maer?

I don't think he had the opportunity, but I flew through the book. Whew! Well, you know what they say about revenge, though: best served cold. ;)

I loved the book. I read it amazingly quickly, thanks to a tolerant family and Rothfuss' writing. Wow.

I love this thread, too. Great insights and discussion.

[RogueSock]

Does that mean Ambrose bought her then? Because if so, I'd really expect more reaction from Kvothe than simply trying to secrectly steal back her ring. Although maybe he didn't want Ambrose to know how he felt about Denna, which Ambrose would find out if Kvothe called him out about it?

Kvothe's reaction to the whole thing kinda confused me in the book... sure, he burned up Ambrose's room, but compared to the song he wrote about him in NotW for everone to hear it seems like he didn't really do much in revenge. Especially considering that Ambrose attacked him with his blood and everything...

Being a high class "Courtisan" (thanks Ser Scot), means that Denna likely can pick and choose. From her telling of the story I don't think the two slept together. Also she is not some cheap tramp. It's not "Hey how much for the night" with Denna. I imagine it takes a quite a bit more than that.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

"Courtisan" is a better word.

[jurble]

"Courtisan" is a better word.

courtesan

mwahahahahahahaha

[Spoony]

Was I the only one who was thoroughly underwhelmed by this book?

It took Robert Jordan 7 books before his story progression slowed to a snail's pace and his editor gave every indication of being dead.

It seems as if Rothfuss only took 2 books to reach this point.

[Pufferfish123]

Being a high class whore (hate that word), means that Denna likely can pick and choose. From her telling of the story I don't think the two slept together. Also she is not some cheap tramp. It's not "Hey how much for the night" with Denna. I imagine it takes a bit more than that.

Thats what I wasn't sure about - if Denna was sleeping with these men on the implication that they'd give her gifts (like medieval sugardaddies), which seems to be the case at the least, or if she's an out-and-out whore with these men simply paying her for sex/companionship. Most of her interactions with the men seem to imply the former, but the way she talks to the girl in the tavern seems to imply that she's also experienced the latter at some point, which might explain why she's so desperate to not let these men control her now.

[TeaSpoon]

Another thing, Kvothe explains syaldry as written sympathy. Could Yllish story knots be a way to write true names? If it was possible to make names physical, it could have the properties Denna described. And writing "locked" or "lockless" on a box could make the box appear lidless.

[EDIT] Last post, I wrote a bunch of things about the Lackless Door and the Loeclos Box. See the following poems. The first is from Wise Man's Fear and the second is from Name of the Wind.

Seven things stand before

The entrance to the Lackless door.

One of them a ring unworn

One a word that is forsworn

One a time that must be right

One a candle without light

One a son who brings the blood

One a door that holds the flood

One a thing tight-held in keeping

Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

“Seven things has Lady Lackless

Keeps them underneath her black dress

One a ring that’s not for wearing

One a sharp word, not for swearing

Right beside her husband’s candle

There’s a door without a handle

In a box, no lid or locks

Lackless keeps her husband’s rocks

There’s a secret she’s been keeping

She’s been dreaming and not sleeping

On a road, that’s not for traveling

Lackless likes her riddle raveling.”

Now obviously the "ravelling" bit is about the Lackless heir running off with the Ruh, but I'm not so certain about the lines preceding. When I read that the first time, I didn't know about the Lackless door yet and I assumed this poem was mostly sexual innuendo I couldn't figure out. I still don't see how a "ring that's not for wearing" can be sexual.

Anyway, one poem offers clues about the other. The "One a thing tight-held in keeping" is the "secret she’s been keeping." And Kvothe is certainly full of secrets. "Then comes that which comes with sleeping." is "She’s been dreaming and not sleeping," which was obvious before and is now confirmed.

Another thing the poem tells us is that the box contains rocks. Or stones. Which fits with my theory that the Leoclos Box contains the Scrael.

Okay, I figured out more stuff.

The "candle without light" could be the symbol of the Amyr. This is from the story Kvothe tells to Wilem and Sim.

The Amyr gestured the old man forward. He was armored in a suit of bright steel rings, and his sword was tall as a man. His tabard was of shining white, but from the elbows the color darkened into crimson, as if dipped in blood. In the center of his chest, he wore the symbol of the Amyr: the black tower wrapped in a crimson flame.

The ring not for wearing might refer to Amyr issue chain mail.

Also, I found more hints that Kvothe is Amyr-like

There was another flicker of lightning, and I saw her standing closer. She pointed at me, grinning delightedly. "You look like an Amyr," she said. "Kvothe is one of the Ciridae."

I looked down at myself and with the next lightning flicker I saw what she meant. I had dried blood running down the back of my hands from when I’d been trying to stanch my wounds. It looked like the old tattoos the Amyr had used to mark their highest ranking members.

This from Auri, who seems to know about the mysteries of the world.

Simmon laughed as we began to walk slowly in the direction of Anker’s. He kicked playfully at a small drift of snow. "The world needs people like you," Simmon said in the tone of voice that let me know he was turning philosophical. "You get things done. Not always the best way, or the most sensible way, but it gets done nonetheless. You’re a rare creature."

“How do you mean?” I asked, my curiosity piqued.

Sim shrugged. "Like today. Something bothers you, someone offends you, and suddenly you’re off." He made a quick motion with a flat hand. "You know exactly what to do. You never hesitate, you just see and react." He was thoughtful for a moment. "I imagine that’s the way the Amyr used to be. Small wonder folk were frightened of them."

This from Sim, who has keen insight into the human condition.

Lastly, the talking tree has this to say about the Amyr

"Not many folk will take your search for the Amyr seriously, you realize," the Cthaeh continued calmly. "The Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He’s already come close to them, though he doesn’t realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door."

The Amyr's door. Not the Lockless door, which is what everyone else is talking about. Unless they are one and the same!

[EDIT] The door that holds the flood! How could I have been so blind! The door that holds the flood is the Loeclos Box, which holds the Scrael, an endless number of spider creatures that kill everything within sight.

[AverageGuy]

Chronicler studied at the University before Kvothe, as evidenced by the fact that "The Mating Habits of the Common Dracchus" was one of the first books that Kvothe read in the library.

See, this is confusing to me. Yes, Mating habits was in Tomes on Kvothe's first day. However, on page 330, after Kvothe elides right over his Tema-in-a-day trial:

"But that's the first story I ever heard about you when I came to the University," Chronicler protested.

My best guess is he wrote the book before attending the University.