The appealing nature of all Arya chapters

[Errant Bard]

The direwolves were provided by the Old gods of the North to the 6 Stark children in the opening scene of the series.

The children found the Direwolves. The old gods don't even exist. The children were Starks before finding them, and will be after losing them. You may as well claim that because Ned found a dead Direwolf, he stopped being a Stark right there and then.

And the way they take on the personalities of their masters are clear to see.

It's explained by Martin that warging imprints the master's personality on the slave animal.

In fact, Catelyn - despite being of the Faith of the Seven - comes to accept before her death that the direwolves were indeed provided to her children by the gods of the North and that their fates were intertwined.

Catelyn only thought that the direwolves would protect her children. Not that their fate were intertwined. And even if she did, she's been known to be, you know, wrong, before... and after all Sansa is alive, Summer is not crippled, Nymeria is not blind, Ghost is not scarred and burned, Arya does not lead any army, Ghost doesn't lead any pack, and so on.

The loss of Lady is of massive significance. It effectively makes Sansa a Stark no longer.

No it does not. It effectively makes Sansa a wolf-less Stark. Like Ned, or Lyanna, or Brandon. Everything she thinks, from the moment she tries to save her own father from his own stupidity down to the AFFC snow castle, comes from her Stark roots.

a true Stark

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

The connection is supposed to be so strong that the deaths of the wolf and its master should coincide, like that of Robb and Grey Wind.

Yes, of course it cannot be because people killing Robb will also kill the giant wolf who's just near him and trying to protect him.

But anyway, they don't coincide, because, you know, Sansa is alive, and still a Stark, though in hiding, like... Bran, Rickon, and Arya.

They are supernaturally linked to the destinies of their masters.

No they are not.

[inkasrain]

I don't know how anyone can dispute the thematic importance of the direwolves. I think it is clear that the direwolf connection is a massive one.

The direwolves were provided by the Old gods of the North to the 6 Stark children in the opening scene of the series. In fact, that's the first scene Martin ever envisaged of this entire story. And the way they take on the personalities of their masters are clear to see.

In fact, Catelyn - despite being of the Faith of the Seven - comes to accept before her death that the direwolves were indeed provided to her children by the gods of the North and that their fates were intertwined.

The loss of Lady is of massive significance. It effectively makes Sansa a Stark no longer. That's why Nymeria survived, despite the plot requiring Arya to spend time in the cities and thus leaving no room for Nymeria by her side. Martin retained Nymeria, because Arya will always remain a Stark, as signified by her finding Needle again despite all the odds, and then ultimately hiding Needle for later retrieval while "pretending" to become one of the Faceless Men.

In her heart, she is and always will be Arya of Winterfell.

Sansa, well, I think her fate will be different. She will probably go through a redemption arc, where she will ultimately save her House in its time of greatest need - probably by gaining access to the resources of the Vale. But she will ultimately sacrifice herself in the process, because she can never be a true Stark again. The killing of Lady means she has lost that part of herself.

The connection is supposed to be so strong that the deaths of the wolf and its master should coincide, like that of Robb and Grey Wind.

The moment Lady was lost, Sansa was lost as a Stark as well. It has to be, else it invalidates the importance of the other direwolves that are still alive. They aren't mere pets or guard dogs. They are supernaturally linked to the destinies of their masters.

And how does your theory jive with Jon Snow? After Bran, he seems to have the most warg-like connection with his direwolf, and yet he most likely isn't a Stark, anymore than Sansa is a Tully.

I tend to think that a lot of what we're intended to interpret as rock-solid symbolism have been red herrings. There isn't much in-text evidence to support the idea that the direwolves were "meant" for the Stark children, or that their fates are entwined. Sansa didn't die when Lady was killed, or afterward, and she has never revoked her identity as a Stark of Winterfell. Robb and Grey Wind died in tandem because there was a murderous army of Freys out to kill both of them, not because of some supernatural connection.

The only magical element about the wolves which appears to be definitive is that certain people have the ability to warg. This isn't limited to wolf-warging, and it isn't limited to Starks. (If I had to conjecture, I'd say it's connected to First Men/CotF descent, but that's a guess.) The inability to warg is not an indication of a lack of Starkness, strength of character, ability to fly or eyelash length. It's just a trait, like any other.

[Masha]

But Sansa doesn't become Alayne for a very long time after Lady's death, so that change just doesn't correspond thematically. Also, Sansa's new identity is not something she took on herself, but rather a facade imposed on her by Littlefinger. Psychologically, she may pretend to be Alayne Stone, but she still has her own identity as Sansa to return to when the need for deception passes. (And I think it's unlikely that she'll remain Alayne permanently; both Littlefinger's plans and Littlefinger's lust hinge on her actual identity as the auburn-haired Sansa Stark.) This really has no connection to the loss of a direwolf or Sansa's essential Starkness.

In contrast, Arya has invented multiple identities for herself, to the point that it's hard for her to remember who and what she actually is. It's tragic, but I just don't see any connection to the living-or-dead state of her direwolf.

Sansa didn't betray her father. Ned had already regurgitated his plans and secrets all over Cersei in the godswood. The only new information Sansa provided was a hint to the timeline of Ned's intentions, and her goal was nothing more or less than getting permission to stay in King's Landing.

Misguided, sure. But so far away from "betrayal" that referring to it as such pisses off the dictionary.

My point is this, as far as Sansa knew, Cersei didn't know about Ned's intentions till she brought up this letter to Cersei. In her mind, at least, it should have linked her bringing confidential letter of Ned with timeline to his imprisonment and death. Furthermore, at that point, everything was about timeline, if Ned was able to move make his move at the time of his choosing things might have turned out differently, at very least Sansa and Arya would have been spirited away in time to safety in Riverrun. As is Cersei sprang her trap way before Ned was ready and caught him by surprise, For all we know, Cersei was content to wait for perfect moment and Sansa gave her that! If its not betrayal, what is?

[Xenophon]

I agree with Lord Varys and DurararaFTW. Arya always tries to take control of her situation, but she's still been greatly shaped by her experiences. Gone is the defiant but kind tomboy, and its place is a callous hate-filled killer. I still suspect that she will find some way back from the brink, since I think the wolves are anviliciously symbolic, and Nymeria is only far away, not dead. But currently, in trying to be proactive in horrible circumstances, she has become something very dark, fighting evil with evil.

[Gregor Barksdale]

Also I never figured out, did Sansa ever realize that she had betrayed her father and thus was partially responsible for his death and all else that befell her as a consequence of his death?

She didn't, because she hasn't.

[inkasrain]

My point is this, as far as Sansa knew, Cersei didn't know about Ned's intentions till she brought up this letter to Cersei. In her mind, at least, it should have linked her bringing confidential letter of Ned with timeline to his imprisonment and death.

Why? All Sansa said was "We're leaving on X day and I want to stay." Why should she think that led to her father then being imprisoned and executed?

Furthermore, at that point, everything was about timeline, if Ned was able to move make his move at the time of his choosing things might have turned out differently, at very least Sansa and Arya would have been spirited away in time to safety in Riverrun. As is Cersei sprang her trap way before Ned was ready and caught him by surprise, For all we know, Cersei was content to wait for perfect moment and Sansa gave her that! If its not betrayal, what is?

Betrayal is intentionally selling someone out. Betrayal is not giving away a seemingly innocent piece of information without even the slightest clue as to the potential consequences. It's like saying that someone who innocently drinks a poisoned cup of hot chocolate intended to kill themselves. That isn't suicide, and what Sansa did wasn't betrayal.

The children found the Direwolves. The old gods don't even exist. The children were Starks before finding them, and will be after losing them. You may as well claim that because Ned found a dead Direwolf, he stopped being a Stark right there and then.

A big YES to your whole post, but I like this point especially. If we go with the symbolic interpretation, we can't pick-and-choose what parts are real and binding and which are not. Isn't Catelyn made uneasy by the fact that the mother direwolf was killed by a stag's antler? The "meaning" here is pretty plain, but neither Cat nor Ned meet their ends at the hands of Baratheons, not even indirectly.

I think this bait-and-switch with symbolism is just part of what GRRM does. We're trained to find things significant in what we read, especially obvious symbols like the House Sigils. While there certainly are important symbols and supernatural events in ASOIAF, when everyone gathers around and says "Look, look! This is a Symbol of Important Things to Come!" (see: Comet, Red) I'm definitely raising an eyebrow at the likelihood of whatever it is coming true.

[RobMRobM]

1) I just re-read FFC and need some help on why people don't believe she killed Dareon. After the deed, whatever it was, she goes to the Kindly Man and does the usual give me three items of info thing. She explains that Arya Stark killed Dareon - no reaction. She says something about relating to how expensive were Dareon's boots that she took from him and the KM says she's lying. Clear implication (to me) was the KM knew she was not lying when she said she killed Dareon. KM then follows up by giving her milk with a funny almond taste which causes blindness in Arya - presumably (to me) because she caused death of Dareon without his request (as happens in the Temple). Why do these pieces add up to a theory that she let Dareon live? Please advise.

2) I'm a believer in the psychic connection between the Stark kids and their wolves. Reinforced by Robb at some point in text re Sansa ("She lost her wolf")and, arguably, Arya is roaming around the countryside finding and interacting with allies wolves in a manner similar to Nymeria. Gray Wind being warlike, Summer being smart, ShaggyDog being wild all match their respective masters. GRRM is plainly implying some connection - the content of which is not yet clear in the books.

Rob

[Xcorpyo001]

She didn't, because she hasn't.

Cersei seems to think different.

[Brother Wolf]

neither Cat nor Ned meet their ends at the hands of Baratheons, not even indirectly.

Except for that part where Joffrey Baratheon ordered Ilyn Payne to take Ned's head off. ;)

[Errant Bard]

Cersei seems to think different.

Cersei is

1. 
   
2. Lying to Tyrion because she just does not want to talk about why Ned would have confronted her ("Hu, yes, Eddard Stark told me he would strike and I should flee for no reason. Why he thought I would consider it? Why he told me to flee and not Robert? Why I didn't have him arrested then? Err, let me think...")
   
3. Enjoying the Starks not being a perfect united happy family (which is somewhat fitting, since it comes up when she learns of Renly and Stannis fighting each others)
   
   

Except for that part where Joffrey Baratheon ordered Ilyn Payne to take Ned's head off. ;)

Want to play this game? Alright:

It was Ned who killed Lady.

[bottle cap]

That's not the characteristic of a good person, in my opinion. Arya may have been a good girl once, but she ceased to be it when she killed that sentry. And refusing Sandor the mercy of a quick death was also not particularly nice. She did it to make him suffer even more, and that is also not the characteristic of a good person. Especially as they fought and eat together for quite some time, and she owes Sandor her life.

^ that's the truth of it.

[inkasrain]

Except for that part where Joffrey Baratheon ordered Ilyn Payne to take Ned's head off. ;)

You mean Joffery "Both My Parents Are Lannisters" Baratheon? Right ;-)

[Valonquar]

What's this nonsense about the Old Gods not existing? How do you explain the Stark children's prophetic dreams, psychic communication (Arya dreaming of Nymeria's deeds etc) or Bran the Builder (who is a Stark of the old faith) building a magical wall that keeps Others away?

Considering that we have been told nothing hinting at the Seven being real, that we know next to nothing of the Drowned God and that the lines between "Fire and Blood magic" and the powers of the Red Priests, if anything, the Old Gods are the gods that seem most likely to exist.

[Errant Bard]

What's this nonsense about the Old Gods not existing? How do you explain the Stark children's prophetic dreams, psychic communication (Arya dreaming of Nymeria's deeds etc) or Bran the Builder (who is a Stark of the old faith) building a magical wall that keeps Others away?

Magic.

Was that a trick question or something?

[iamthedave]

I've said this before when this issue comes up; Arya as the Stark in Winterfell?

Can you conceive of anybody who would be a worse ruler than Arya Stark? She couldn't be the Stark in Winterfell if you loaded her into a catapult and fired her at the seat of power.

[Xcorpyo001]

Cersei is

1. 
   
2. Lying to Tyrion because she just does not want to talk about why Ned would have confronted her ("Hu, yes, Eddard Stark told me he would strike and I should flee for no reason. Why he thought I would consider it? Why he told me to flee and not Robert? Why I didn't have him arrested then? Err, let me think...")
   
3. Enjoying the Starks not being a perfect united happy family (which is somewhat fitting, since it comes up when she learns of Renly and Stannis fighting each others)
   
   

Want to play this game? Alright:

It was Ned who killed Lady.

So if someone says something you don't like in the books, they are probably lying? lol. I should have thought about it sooner.

And it was Ilyn Payne who killed Ned at the order of Joffrey Baratheon(he may not be Robert's son, but he has his sigil)

[Errant Bard]

So if someone says something you don't like in the books, they are probably lying? lol. I should have thought about it sooner.

What? We know she was not telling Tyrion about Ned. What is there to like or not like?

[Xcorpyo001]

What? We know she was not telling Tyrion about Ned. What is there to like or not like?

We also know Sansa spilled the beans about Ned's plan, only because she wanted to remain at the palace with the love of her life, Joffrey.

[inkasrain]

Want to play this game? Alright:

It was Ned who killed Lady.

On this note, even as a die-hard Sansa fan, I can't deny that it would have been thematically and psychologically gorgeous for Ned's pride to have caused Sansa's death, as Varys threatens. It would have mirrored Ned's "honorable" killing of Lady brilliantly, and I would have enjoyed reading about the hell it would have put Ned through. (Not because I hate Ned, I swear, but because it would have made for such an intense and emotional reading experience. It would have been very interesting to see where Ned, and the rest of the characters, would have gone from that point.)

The fact that GRRM doesn't take this (to me very tempting) path in his story has made me suspend the laws of karmic literary "supposed-to's" in the series.

[Brother Wolf]

Want to play this game? Alright:

It was Ned who killed Lady.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this. Are you trying to argue that Ned didn't kill Lady or that Ned was solely responsible for Lady's death?

The original quote said that neither Ned nor Cat was killed, directly or indirectly, by a Baratheon. I don't think that statement is really true. The great thing about ASOIAF is how layered everything is - nothing ever happens in a vacuum.

Mostly, though, it was a tongue in cheek comment intended to inject a moment of levity into a thread that is in great danger of taking itself too seriously (i.e., yet another thread that quickly devolves into a Sansa debate). Hence, the winkie.

You mean Joffery "Both My Parents Are Lannisters" Baratheon? Right ;-)

That's the one. :D

Magic.

Was that a trick question or something?

Old Gods. Magic. What's the difference?