The appealing nature of all Arya chapters

[Prince of the North]

In looking at the timeline, I can't see how you can NOT say that Sansa revealing Ned's secret ahead of time was the cause of Robert's premature death, and, hence, the cause of Ned's death and the entire family's ruin.

Yes, it WAS all Sansa's fault.

I was almost willing to go along with you until you got to this part. I think you may be forgetting the wee little detail that Cercei had planned to kill Robert in the tournament melee but Ned talked him out of participating. So, one way or another, Cercei was going to get him. It was only a matter of time.

So, no, it WAS NOT all Sansa's fault ;)

[A wilding]

So [sansa] went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly ... only then Ser Arys had escorted her to a high room and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

Clearly this is long after the godswood conversation, which happened while Robert was still away hunting.

But this question of the order of events is a sideline. Sansa did not know Ned knew about the incest. She did not even know that Robert was dying. She certainly did not know "all her father's plans".

[Valmy]

the key events were:

1. Sansa tells cersei that ned is sending her away (and possibly other things)

2. Cersei tells lancel to drug the kings wine

3. Ned tells cersei he knows and she should run

4. Robert is attacked by the boar and comes back to kings landing 2 days later

Here is what I read:

Sansa talked to Cersei, Sansa was escorted to a secure room for safe keeping, and then shortly after that Sansa heard Ned's men being slaughtered. It literally happened right before Ned was taken down not days before.

Read the fourth Sansa Chapter in AGOT.

Please explain to me where you got this sequence of events it directly contradicts the text.

[garth]

Huh? Ned talks to Cersei in the Godswood before Robert is even back from his hunt. How could you think that happens before Sansa goes to Cersei? She clearly goes to her the night before she is supposed to leave with Arya the night that King Robert dies.

Actually, i just pulled my book and the timeline is completely screwed up...

According to Sansa, she spoke to cersei on the day that the fighting began (i.e. after robert died). Unless she also spoke to her earlier, which doesn't make sense, then she could not have been the tip off for Cersei to order Robert killed. But, as stated before, Ned spilling his guts couldn't have been the cause either because there was no time for cersei to send a message to lancel to drug the king's wine.

So, I am totally confused on the play by play on this one and I suspect it is a flaw in the timelines.

[Prince of the North]

Actually, i just pulled my book and the timeline is completely screwed up...

According to Sansa, she spoke to cersei on the day that the fighting began (i.e. after robert died). Unless she also spoke to her earlier, which doesn't make sense, then she could not have been the tip off for Cersei to order Robert killed. But, as stated before, Ned spilling his guts couldn't have been the cause either because there was no time for cersei to send a message to lancel to drug the king's wine.

So, I am totally confused on the play by play on this one and I suspect it is a flaw in the timelines.

Yes, Cercei was planning to have Robert killed for awhile before that. It was only a question of how and when, not if.

[Kalbear]

According to Sansa, she spoke to cersei on the day that the fighting began (i.e. after robert died).

To be clear, she spoke to her BEFORE the fighting died on that day. So the timeline is:

Sansa talks to Cersei

Cersei sends guards to get Arya and Sansa

Ned gets captured

[dcon]

I don't have textual proof that Cersei was going to try to take the girls. It seems to me that this would be step one in the "Westerosi Guide to Hindering Your Enemy" rulebook, but it's true that this is just my opinion. Let's say we take that out of the equation-- Cersei never even considered going near Sansa and Arya, and Sansa never tells her anything: Ned still gets taken down. Apprehending the girls was extraneous to Cersei's goal; a nice perk, but not an integral cog. She knew his plans and was going to act against him no matter what happened. Sansa's information--the timeline-- gave Cersei what she needed to act first. This included capturing the girls, but the one Cersei really needed was Ned, and he was the one she went after.

As for "reading between the lines", I'm doing no such thing. Like Valmy and A wilding, I'm simply contrasting the established timeline of events in A Game of Thrones with Cersei's later recollections on the same story, and the two just don't match up. By all means, go with Cersei's interpretation, but I'll take the play-by-play as a better indicator of what actually happened.

Ned was going to get taken down anyway, we both agree on this. I am saying that Sansa hurt her, Ned, and Arya by telling Cersei of Ned's plan to send them away. What Cersei may or may not have done is irrelevant, because it never came to that. Most of the blame falls on Ned, but some falls on Sansa. She did betray Ned (as evidenced by the definition of the word and by Ned telling Sansa not to speak to anyone about it). I don't know why this has to be a black and white issue. Sansa goofed up, I'm not sure why you can't admit it.

Looking at some of the time lines people have been posting, Sansa tells Cersei before her and Arya are captured. How does this not match up with Cersei's interpretation? And even then, the only interpretation from Cersei I know of is her saying how Sansa going to her about Ned's plan helped her immensely. You can debate how helpful it was (I agree that's up for interpretation) but it helped.

[Olenna]

Returning to the OP, I agree that Arya's chapters are cathartic to read, but I think that in general she gets too much credit for her proactive behavior relative to characters like Sansa who act more conventionally. She superficially seems to be in control of her life, but more often she is following the lead of or being reined in by a capable older man who has decided to mentor her. She would have been toast long ago without this plot armor, as we have seen on numerous occasions when she has had to be prevented from doing something reckless.

[Color Slander]

I don't know why this has to be a black and white issue. Sansa goofed up, I'm not sure why you can't admit it.

I think the issue comes here in the general attitude that Sansa is a horrible idiot that should be blamed for her father's killing. I know it's not what you are saying but with some posts it feels like it.

I agree, as someone who really likes Sansa, she screwed up. It was something she should not have done and it did not cause the trouble, but it certainly exasperated it. It could be that I didn't start to like Sansa until book 3, but I think GRRM made it so her flaws were very pronounced.

But at the same time, the idea this was an absolute and malicious betrayal seems false to me. Sansa was working on incomplete information, no one was telling her anything. She could only assume what she knew which was what everyone was telling her, silly songs of idealism. There was no way Sansa could comprehend the magnitude of what was going on, no one told her and probably rightly so. She's eleven and being manipulated by people who are much better than her playing a power struggle.

I don't think that we should ask an eleven year old who's been basically played like a puppet to be blamed for acting on things she couldn't understand. The people who killed her family are the Lannisters, it's not surprising that she had no idea how much of a monster they could be. There were warning signs, but they meant little to someone who was promised to be part of their family, and who clearly lied and manipulated her- plus even Cersei didn't believed that Ned wouldn't die.

She would have been toast long ago without this plot armor,

As are plenty of characters though. It seems silly to say in a story, "she's only here because of plot." Well. Yeah. That's the point >___>

Otherwise I don't see a decent praise Arya thread turned into a huge Sansa-fest. Well I can, part of GRRM's design was to make them foils of each other. But I guess I don't see why both characters can't succeed in whatever path they were forced on. Both Sansa and Arya love and annoy the ever living daylights out of each other, but I always felt that they want to be reunited. I think there's been effort to put them as opposites, and maybe not equals but as people who compliment each other. Arya totally giving up the idea of being a "proper lady" and wanting to fight, while Sansa who was always a natural and loving being a girl/lady and abhorring death (mostly seen in Book 2 when she saves Dontos, etc).

That's just me, part of the Stark charm is the promise that they're going to grow up apart and be reunited. Well, in my ideal mind.

[inkasrain]

Ned was going to get taken down anyway, we both agree on this. I am saying that Sansa hurt her, Ned, and Arya by telling Cersei of Ned's plan to send them away. What Cersei may or may not have done is irrelevant, because it never came to that. Most of the blame falls on Ned, but some falls on Sansa. She did betray Ned (as evidenced by the definition of the word and by Ned telling Sansa not to speak to anyone about it). I don't know why this has to be a black and white issue. Sansa goofed up, I'm not sure why you can't admit it.

She did goof up. I have no problem with that. The issue is, where does the blame go, and since the grand total of Sansa's information led to, at the very most, her own detention. Full stop.

I absolutely disagree that what Sansa did could be called "betrayal", but as that seems that like a purely semantic argument, I'm not going to pursue it.

Looking at some of the time lines people have been posting, Sansa tells Cersei before her and Arya are captured. How does this not match up with Cersei's interpretation? And even then, the only interpretation from Cersei I know of is her saying how Sansa going to her about Ned's plan helped her immensely. You can debate how helpful it was (I agree that's up for interpretation) but it helped.

Once again, because the only thing Sansa contributed to was her own detention by Cersei, but Cersei somehow rearranges this to "credit" Sansa for spilling Ned's information and intentions. As we know from the timeline, that is simply not true.

[dcon]

She did goof up. I have no problem with that. The issue is, where does the blame go, and since the grand total of Sansa's information led to, at the very most, her own detention. Full stop.

I absolutely disagree that what Sansa did could be called "betrayal", but as that seems that like a purely semantic argument, I'm not going to pursue it.

Once again, because the only thing Sansa contributed to was her own detention by Cersei, but Cersei somehow rearranges this to "credit" Sansa for spilling Ned's information and intentions. As we know from the timeline, that is simply not true.

I guess I should clarify that by "Ned's plan" I mean his plan to send Arya and Sansa away. Never meant to imply anything other than that, if that's what you're getting. I've stopped at there this whole argument, you've just assumed I was going further with it.

Cersei rearranges this to credit Sansa because she spilled Ned's intention of sending her and Arya away. Do you think that I am saying that Sansa told Cersei Ned going to Robert? Because again, I never said or meant to imply that. Sansa is to blame for Cersei capturing her because she told her about Ned's plan to send her away.

And if you think that's a purely semantic argument I wonder what you would consider not a semantic argument. You're right, though, obviously no point continuing this.

[inkasrain]

I guess I should clarify that by "Ned's plan" I mean his plan to send Arya and Sansa away. Never meant to imply anything other than that, if that's what you're getting. I've stopped at there this whole argument, you've just assumed I was going further with it.

Cersei rearranges this to credit Sansa because she spilled Ned's intention of sending her and Arya away. Do you think that I am saying that Sansa told Cersei Ned going to Robert? Because again, I never said or meant to imply that. Sansa is to blame for Cersei capturing her because she told her about Ned's plan to send her away.

Cool. The problem is that Cersei gives Sansa credit for a lot more than Sansa's own detention, which is where the storyline and Cersei's opinions differ. Agreed?

And if you think that's a purely semantic argument I wonder what you would consider not a semantic argument. You're right, though, obviously no point continuing this.

How would debating the exact meaning and implications of the word "betrayal" not be a semantic argument?

(And why did I start debating whether or not something is a semantic argument when I didn't want to get into the actual semantic argument in the first place?)

[dcon]

Cool. The problem is that Cersei gives Sansa credit for a lot more than Sansa's own detention, which is where the storyline and Cersei's opinions differ. Agreed?

How would debating the exact meaning and implications of the word "betrayal" not be a semantic argument?

(And why did I start debating whether or not something is a semantic argument when I didn't want to get into the actual semantic argument in the first place?)

No, because I have yet to see you give me a quote from Cersei explaining in detail why Sansa's info helped her. The only example I found was one sentence and it was very vague.

And fair point about the semantics. I guess I was more perplexed on how you could even argue it, but as you said it's pointless to continue.

[inkasrain]

No, because I have yet to see you give me a quote from Cersei explaining in detail why Sansa's info helped her. The only example I found was one sentence and it was very vague.

"If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans . . .”

"No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard’s plans."

Is this what you're referring to? I suppose you could say that Cersei is just referring to Ned's plans to send the girls away, but that seems a strangely narrow definition, and one that would focus on a very minor facet of Cersei's triumph.

[dcon]

"If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans . . .”

"No one had given Cersei such a lovely gift since Sansa Stark had run to her to divulge Lord Eddard’s plans."

Is this what you're referring to? I suppose you coud say that Cersei is just referring to Ned's plans to send the girls away, but that seems a strangely narrow definition, and one that would focus on a very minor facet of Cersei's triumph.

It is narrow, I agree, but connecting this with Cersei knowing all of Ned's plans through Sansa's confession doesn't quite hold up for me either. You can assume that Cersei gives more credit to Sansa but I don't know why she would, even if she tries to reassure herself of certain things that she knows probably aren't true (like when she finds Shae in Tywin's bed). That's a lot of guess work and assumptions that I don't feel work, given what little we know about the actual conversation.

[Masha]

It is narrow, I agree, but connecting this with Cersei knowing all of Ned's plans through Sansa's confession doesn't quite hold up for me either. You can assume that Cersei gives more credit to Sansa but I don't know why she would, even if she tries to reassure herself of certain things that she knows probably aren't true (like when she finds Shae in Tywin's bed). That's a lot of guess work and assumptions that I don't feel work, given what little we know about the actual conversation.

In battle, whomever got the first strike and catches other unawares would most likely win. Cersei credits Sansa with that, if Ned and his men weren't caught completely unawares they would have put up much better fight and not only girls but others would have escaped. Even with LF and other betrayals if Ned had a chance of a first strike he would have had done something more than surrendered and his men wouldn't have been slaughtered to a man. It was obvious that both Cersei and Ned were basically circling one another, waiting for right time to strike and Ned was planning to make a move the moment Sansa and Arya were spirited off Red Keep and on the ship, we don't know what Cersei was waiting for. But Sansa betrayal gave her the right time to strike and she won.

[Valmy]

In battle, whomever got the first strike and catches other unawares would most likely win. Cersei credits Sansa with that, if Ned and his men weren't caught completely unawares they would have put up much better fight and not only girls but others would have escaped. Even with LF and other betrayals if Ned had a chance of a first strike he would have had done something more than surrendered and his men wouldn't have been slaughtered to a man. It was obvious that both Cersei and Ned were basically circling one another, waiting for right time to strike and Ned was planning to make a move the moment Sansa and Arya were spirited off Red Keep and on the ship, we don't know what Cersei was waiting for. But Sansa betrayal gave her the right time to strike and she won.

Maybe. I am not sure why she would have waited once Robert died. In fact I have no idea why she would have waited around. She held all the cards because LF had handed them to her.

[Valmy]

As I said the thing makes no sense. In order for it to make sense you have to make leaps of logic like 'Cersei was waiting around to sieze power...for some reason...but once Sansa came she decided to do it right then'

Well why was she waiting around? She already won. :mellow:

Anyway, as I said before, I hope the TV series makes it a little more clear.

What seemed to happen in the story and Cersei's memory of it later do not seem to line up.

[Valmy]

It is narrow, I agree, but connecting this with Cersei knowing all of Ned's plans through Sansa's confession doesn't quite hold up for me either. You can assume that Cersei gives more credit to Sansa but I don't know why she would, even if she tries to reassure herself of certain things that she knows probably aren't true (like when she finds Shae in Tywin's bed). That's a lot of guess work and assumptions that I don't feel work, given what little we know about the actual conversation.

Yeah that's the thing.

I thought she was going it originally to try to hide the fact that Ned had approached her in the Godswood and gave her a chance to escape and why he was doing so. It is sort of hard to paint him as a vile traitor under those circumstances which was, after all, the official story. Besides it made it look like she won due to her own cunning manipulation of Sansa rather than the machinations of Littlefinger.

That is what I thought...but then she remembers how Sansa brought her "Neds plans" during her POV chapter. That seems to be even more than simply saying 'Dad is sending me away please have the King order him to allow me to stay' thing.

Weird.

[Valmy]

BTW why are we talking about this? Shouldn't we be discussing why we like Arya?