Deconstructing Tywin

[Blue Steel]

Evidence for Jaime having most of the cavalry? From what I read, Jaime had roughly 6k armoured horse, and Tywin had around 5k, more, but not most.

Otherwise, most of what you say is true, though I don't think Tywin, or anyone could have anticipated Robb's move to split his forces, given that Robb was a wholly inexperienced 15-year old. Also, he did pick the site for the battle of the Green Fork, since he moved forward to a position where he could force Roose into battle, but still maintain a good position.

Evidence was in ASoS when Robb tells Edmure that he should have let Tywin by because Robb had more calvary and the benefit of choosing the ground for fighting while saying that Tywin had mostly infantry at this point.

[iamthedave]

I think there is an argument to be made that keeping the realm at peace in such a way that it explodes into a rebellion that overthrows a 300 year old dynasty the minute ones back turned is...not keeping the realm at peace particularly well, but honestly I don't think we have the data to judge one way or another, so i'll leave that argument aside for the moment.

Can you perhaps point out the ways in which Tywin is responsible for the rebellion?

Tywin had absolutely nothing to do with it (literally, he sat out the whole affair). You can't blame him for a rebellion he didn't start. That was all Aerys' work.

I don't think Tywin ruled the realm well (if he did) because he thought the lives of the smallfolk should be pleasant, and I don't think he carried out the red wedding to end a war. He did both because they were of personal benefit.

And... ending the war isn't to his benefit?

Tywin doesn't generally act out of spite. Look at how he treated the people who yielded after the Kings Landing battle, and how he treated Robb's bannermen post Red Wedding. Joffrey's screeching about how he wants them all beheaded as traitors, but it's Tywin who very wisely says that if someone kneels you have to help them to their feet, else nobody will.

He's ruthless to his enemies, not to those who would be his friends.

Moreover, his personal failings overshadow this for me. Its hard for me not to see Tysha's gang rape and the Red Wedding (and Castamere, and his treatment of his children, and the sack of KL, and the reaving of the riverlands, and the employment of people like Hoat and the Mountain, etc,) as products of the same overblown ego and driven by the same mad petulance.

Using the words 'mad petulance' shows a level of bias that makes me feel you don't look at him even slightly objectively.

His ego is enormous, no question, but it's no larger than that of many other house leaders. The system promotes arrogant men, and creates them. The difference between Tywin and them is that he can back it up with determination, willpower and ruthlessness. His treatment of TYRION is cruel, but Tywin's feelings towards Tyrion are pretty complicated and tied in to the death of his wife, whom we know he loved very deeply. There's no 'mad petulance' in his treatment of Jaime or Cersei.

There's no defending what he does with Tyrion, but his employment of Gregor et al is an entirely separate issue. He views them as useful, effective tools, and he puts them to very great use.

Neither is a mass assassination, at a wedding, flagrantly breaking powerful ancient taboos. Its really all very...Kill Bill, or Clockwork Orange. Ultraviolence, stylized, artistic even. (And he is a vain, showy man. Theres not a lady's dress anywhere in the books described as lushly as Tywin's armour.) This is not practicality, and its not pragmatism, and its not someone making a means/ends choice. Its someone indulging a need to hurt others and to be famous.

The Lannisters do like to look pretty, that much is for sure.

But as already pointed out, Tywin had very little to do with the Red Wedding. He wanted Robb shot with an arrow in the field. It was Walder Frey and Roose Bolton who put together the whole massacre. Tywin just gave them the nod and said he wouldn't punish them for it afterwards.

And that IS practicality, and it IS pragmatism.

He's not always a one-note character. You can't just describe him as cold, ruthless and practical. He has his dips, he has issues that incite him to feats of emotion that often cause him to act in ways he normally doesn't, and Tyrion is one of them. But trying to accuse him of vanity is... tenuous. Yes he likes to have pretty armour, but this is not Loras f'n Tyrell we're talking about. Tywin's undoubtedly a disciplined, focused man.

[El Pinko Grande]

Personally, I view Tywin as being sort of the political equivalent of Napoleon- both are brilliant, and they both overreached in a way that guaranteed their downfall. Tywin’s actions alienated too many people for House Lannister to ever rule the Seven Kingdoms. In fact, he may prove to have destroyed his house- I mean, if a resurgent House Stark decides to wipe out the Lannisters, who would stop them?

That said, you have to give the man credit for some of the schemes he hatched. If he were a bit less ambitious and if he didn’t do such a horrible job raising his children, he would probably be the dominant figure in Westeros. As it stands, he’s probably brought his family and the kingdom to the brink of disaster.

[iamthedave]

That said, you have to give the man credit for some of the schemes he hatched. If he were a bit less ambitious and if he didn’t do such a horrible job raising his children, he would probably be the dominant figure in Westeros. As it stands, he’s probably brought his family and the kingdom to the brink of disaster.

In fairness, he WAS the dominant figure in Westeros up until Tyrion killed him.

And equally, very little Tywin did had a direct impact on the current situation in Westeros, beyond the obvious issue of him being murdered by Tyrion (which I'm sure Tywin would protest is a fairly relevant error). Cersei and Jaime's incest contributed, but (I hope) Tywin had nothing to do with that, but it was really Littlefinger's machinations that triggered the war, especially if he is the one who suggested to Joff that Ned should die as has been hinted and/or suggested.

The only thing he can be directly blamed for is the sack of King's Landing; which obviously had a lot of impact with the Martells... buuuuuuuut... the Martells were Targ loyalists. Even without Elia's death, you have to believe they'd still be plotting to restore the Targs to power. They just wouldn't be as interested in personal vengeance as well.

I'm not trying to whitewash him by any means. I just don't think Tywin's really had much of a role in bringing Westeros to its current situation beyond his obvious participation in the Riverlands war. And in the aftermath of that, Tywin was the guy doing his damnedest to pick up the pieces and get the realm in order.

He is definitely the worst father in the series though. Nope, can't think of anyone who could compare to him. His kids don't all hate him, Cersei seems to love him - sort of - certainly she wants to be him, Tyrion obviously hates him... and I've never been quite sure how Jaime feels about his dad. Frustrated, I think.

[mcb]

Completely disagree. Uncapable ruler, no matter how honorable and good as a person he may be, is the worst thing that can happen to a country.

Really? Really the worst? Charles I of England was worse than Joseph Stalin?

[Spring Bass]

Can you perhaps point out the ways in which Tywin is responsible for the rebellion?

Tywin had absolutely nothing to do with it (literally, he sat out the whole affair). You can't blame him for a rebellion he didn't start. That was all Aerys' work.

Exactly. Aerys was a terrible King, one who managed to do what even Aegon the Unworthy (the worst king in the history of the united seven kingdoms, according to Martin) couldn't do: destroy the Targaryen Monarchy. If anything, I'd put more blame on Rhaegar for not side-lining his father earlier on (something which he was planning to do when he got back from the Trident in Jaime's flashback in AFFC).

And yet, Tywin managed to give the kingdom two decades of peace before Aerys's lunacy led to war.

Tywin doesn't generally act out of spite. Look at how he treated the people who yielded after the Kings Landing battle, and how he treated Robb's bannermen post Red Wedding. Joffrey's screeching about how he wants them all beheaded as traitors, but it's Tywin who very wisely says that if someone kneels you have to help them to their feet, else nobody will.

He's ruthless to his enemies, not to those who would be his friends.

Exactly. He accepts the allegiance of an army that was on its way to annihilate the rule of his children and grand-children. An army that, if Stannis hadn't pulled out his black magic hat trick, would have likely taken King's Landing and put his daughter's head on a spike. Contrast that to Ned Stark, who completely refused Littlefinger's plan to take the regency for Joffrey out of anger due to the threats on his son's life, and the deaths of his men.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that he never acts out of spite, but he's remarkably good at converting potential enemies into allies (not the same as friends).

As for the issue of Dornish vengeance,

1. The Dornish had been angry, but were basically all talk despite Doran's claims in AFFC. Whether or not they liked him, Tywin and the Throne had their allegiance, and Tyrion cemented it by sending Myrcella to Dorne.

2. Oberyn and his ilk were never going to be satisfied with just the head of Gregor Clegane, because they thought (rightly) that Tywin had given the order. So why give them anything? Just tell them a half-truth (that Amory Lorch did it, and he did kill Rhaenys), and let them smoulder some more. They're the smallest of the Seven Kingdoms anyways, and they can't do anything without allies.

With regards to Robb, I think that has more to do with him under-estimating Robb. Sure, Robb is Ned's son (and Ned was apparently a great military leader), but he was also a 15 year-old-boy with no prior command experience.

After that, most of Robb's victories come against other Lannister forces (like the host assembled by Stefford Lannister). Tywin himself positions his army at Harrenhal, which allows him to sweep southward to defend King's Landing if word gets out that Stannis has sailed, or sweep north to meet Robb's host if they march from Riverrun southward.

He is definitely the worst father in the series though. Nope, can't think of anyone who could compare to him. His kids don't all hate him, Cersei seems to love him - sort of - certainly she wants to be him, Tyrion obviously hates him... and I've never been quite sure how Jaime feels about his dad. Frustrated, I thin

Tywin seemed to have this combination of self-delusion and distrust for his children, which shows up most strongly in Tyrion (whom he hates for the death of Joanna and because Tyrion doesn't fit the image he wants to show of House Lannister) and Jaime (where he's kept this fantasy of Jaime leaving the Kingsguard and becoming his true heir alive right up until the point where Jaime tells him that it's not going to happen).

The gang rape of Tysha alone makes him worse than Robert, who was incredibly neglectful towards his children.

[El Pinko Grande]

In fairness, he WAS the dominant figure in Westeros up until Tyrion killed him.

And equally, very little Tywin did had a direct impact on the current situation in Westeros, beyond the obvious issue of him being murdered by Tyrion (which I'm sure Tywin would protest is a fairly relevant error). Cersei and Jaime's incest contributed, but (I hope) Tywin had nothing to do with that, but it was really Littlefinger's machinations that triggered the war, especially if he is the one who suggested to Joff that Ned should die as has been hinted and/or suggested.

The only thing he can be directly blamed for is the sack of King's Landing; which obviously had a lot of impact with the Martells... buuuuuuuut... the Martells were Targ loyalists. Even without Elia's death, you have to believe they'd still be plotting to restore the Targs to power. They just wouldn't be as interested in personal vengeance as well.

I'm not trying to whitewash him by any means. I just don't think Tywin's really had much of a role in bringing Westeros to its current situation beyond his obvious participation in the Riverlands war. And in the aftermath of that, Tywin was the guy doing his damnedest to pick up the pieces and get the realm in order.

He is definitely the worst father in the series though. Nope, can't think of anyone who could compare to him. His kids don't all hate him, Cersei seems to love him - sort of - certainly she wants to be him, Tyrion obviously hates him... and I've never been quite sure how Jaime feels about his dad. Frustrated, I think.

Here's the thing- I don't let Robb off the hook just because Edmure screwed up. A commander is responsible for his subordinates. And by that token, Tywin is responsible for Jaime and Cersei and Joffrey. Had Tywin not been blinded by hubris or whatever, he would have known how erratic his children and grandchildren were, and he would have been on the scene in King's Landing to make sure things were going exactly as he intended. But he wasn't, and I think it's a fair bet to say it's because he thought he was in control of the situation, when plainly he wasn't.

[Alcatur]

As for Tywin being a brilliant politician, i have a problem with this in regard to the situation of House Lannister at the beggining of the ACoK. Even without Robb unexpected military prowess, he was in situation where Casterly Rock had absolutly no allies. Even if Tywin defeated Starks and Tullies, he would have to face enitire might of south under Renly and also Stannis forces. He obviously was not prepared for the situation. Even after Renlys assasination, we heard of no action from Tywins side to win some alliances; it was Tyrion and Littlefinger appeasing of Dorne and alliance with Reach, which saved Lannisters. Its true that we have no POV close to him, but all that happened started within Kings Landing, without any help from Tywin.

To me it would seem as the situation simply grew too complex for Tywin, for a moment it overgrown i abilities. Later he dealt with it very well, but - only lter, when it clarified and simplified itself. He even took no part in Greyjoy actions - he just left them alone, even though they were potentially very dangerous for Lannisport.

[Spring Bass]

As for Tywin being a brilliant politician, i have a problem with this in regard to the situation of House Lannister at the beggining of the ACoK. Even without Robb unexpected military prowess, he was in situation where Casterly Rock had absolutly no allies. Even if Tywin defeated Starks and Tullies, he would have to face enitire might of south under Renly and also Stannis forces.

It's hard to say with Renly because nobody apparently saw Renly's Rebellion coming (or if they did, Littlefinger and Varys neglected to mention it to anyone else in the Court). There was little he could do about Stannis, either, other than help to relieve King's Landing when it gets attacked.

To me it would seem as the situation simply grew too complex for Tywin, for a moment it overgrown i abilities. Later he dealt with it very well, but - only lter, when it clarified and simplified itself. He even took no part in Greyjoy actions - he just left them alone, even though they were potentially very dangerous for Lannisport.

Well, that's true. There's only so much one man can do in a society with communications and transport times being so slow, even when he has an army.

[Blue Steel]

Tywin's brilliant military strategy achieved this:

Ser Harys Swyft, "What can we do? Jaime's host is all slaughtered or taken or put to flight, and the Starks and the Tullys sit squarely across our line of supply. We are cut off from the west! They can march on Casterly Rock if they so choose, and what's to stop them? My lords, we are beaten. We must sue for peace."

It's a pretty accurate assessment of the situation after The Whisperwing Wood -- and according to Tywin, the situation was even worse than that. Imagine what Ser Harys Swyft would have said if he knew Renly had declared himself King with all the might of Highgarden and Storms End?

In fact, Tywin himself would have sued for peace after the Whisperwind Wood if it wasn't Joffrey being an idiot and having Ned killed.

From Lord Tywin, "You have the right of it about Stark. Alive, we might have used Lord Eddard to forge a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun, a peace would given us the time we need to deal with Robert's brothers. Dead . . ."

So if not for Joffrey's blunder, Robb would have achieved his strategic goals against the Lannisters while Tywin's strategic goals against Robb would have been a failure.

Now all the evidence points to Tywin being a brilliant political leader, such as the fact that he was the hand of Aerys for 20 years or so. But the facts do not support the claim taht he was a great general.

Ned, Robb, the Blackfish, Stannis, and Randyl Tarly were all better generals.

[King Ned Stark]

IamtheDave,

You could argue that I am biased towards Tywin and possibly be right, as I lean heavily towards a leader with a good and decent moral code as opposed to one with social standing, wealth, and power. However, I do not think I am being biased, as I was personally never impressed with Tywin, and never really saw much he did as an "accomlishment". He was a product of his father's meekness, as his children are a product of overbearingness. He overcompensated for his father being weak to restore Lannister pride, which to me borders on mental instability. I would rather be a pushover than a ruthless opportunist. His was fortunate to be born an inheriting son of the richest and one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros. Endless wealth and a lot of men go along way to making a man formidable. He was formidable by birth, not by ability, and now his House is on the brink of ruin. I could possibly be remembering this wrong, but I think that Tywin tells someone that a man atop a wall is worth ten below it, while Ned tells someone that a wall is only as strong as the man who defends it. Different mentalities, to me, where Tywin would put stock in status/position, and Ned puts stock in people/humanity. Their deaths show the difference, Ned is betrayed by enemies that he showed mercy to, whereas Tywin is betrayed by his own son, who gave him a chance at mercy.

[Jojen]

I tend to agree with King Ned's post. Tywin was very smart when it came to handling his house's finances, but he was way too controlling over the lives of everyone around him. He wanted to remake the world in his own image, to the greater glory of his house and his name, but he went too far. His hubris was his downfall. If his wife had lived, he might have been a better person, but without her, there was no one to balance his bad judgement and overweening pride.

[Kalbear]

So if not for Joffrey's blunder, Robb would have achieved his strategic goals against the Lannisters while Tywin's strategic goals against Robb would have been a failure.

Now all the evidence points to Tywin being a brilliant political leader, such as the fact that he was the hand of Aerys for 20 years or so. But the facts do not support the claim taht he was a great general.

I'm not sure that implies Tywin sucking. Robb was very, very good for his age and had some really good veterans helping him; the Blackfish was one of the best generals of the realm, Ned was another, and the Northern troops are very, very disciplined and strong.

Stannis...I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence that Stannis was great. He got played by Tyrion of all people. He blundered into a trap due to his outriders being cut down.

Tywin's biggest flaw was that he underestimated Robb. Had he took Robb's mettle Whispering wood would have turned out differently, I suspect. It was a mistake. That doesn't mean Tywin sucks; that shows how stellar Robb really was strategically, how he understood mobility tactics, use of terrain and his troops weaknesses and strengths. He was a great commander. That doesn't mean Tywin was bad. It's not like Tywin doesn't have military victories under his belt.

[Spring Bass]

Stannis...I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence that Stannis was great. He got played by Tyrion of all people. He blundered into a trap due to his outriders being cut down.

He made a bad decision in choosing his admiral, who proceeded to blunder right into the trap. Davos's POV had him thinking that he would have done things differently even before they go up river, but I can't remember exactly what his plan was (and I don't have the book within reach here at work).

Stannis has two real military victories under his belt: the siege of Storm's End, and the defeat of the wildling host in ASoS. Neither are particularly impressive, and we have to weigh that against his bad judgment on the naval assault of King's Landing, plus the blindsiding of his entire force by the Tyrell host.

Tywin's biggest flaw was that he underestimated Robb. Had he took Robb's mettle Whispering wood would have turned out differently, I suspect. It was a mistake. That doesn't mean Tywin sucks; that shows how stellar Robb really was strategically, how he understood mobility tactics, use of terrain and his troops weaknesses and strengths. He was a great commander. That doesn't mean Tywin was bad. It's not like Tywin doesn't have military victories under his belt.

I suspect that Tywin knew very little about Robb other than that he's Ned's son. Robb has never been out of the north before the events in the book (aside from when he was an infant), and Tywin had been hanging out at Casterly Rock for most of the past decade or so.

[Stark Loyalist]

Stannis has two real military victories under his belt: the siege of Storm's End, and the defeat of the wildling host in ASoS. Neither are particularly impressive, and we have to weigh that against his bad judgment on the naval assault of King's Landing, plus the blindsiding of his entire force by the Tyrell host.

I believe that Stannis also lead the navy that crushed Victarion's Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy Rebellion.

[sunworshipper]

Stannis also forced the surrender of the last Targaryen forces on Dragonstone to end the Rebellion.

[shinytoyrobots]

I rate Tywin highly. I also see a lot of parallels with Edward II in terms of historical figures; a highly capable leader, a strong (but not perfect) battle tactician, who after the death of their wife became far harder, more ruthless, and lacked empathy.

[The Human Abstract]

[sorry]

[The Human Abstract]

Tywin's brilliance seems a tad overstated here, if you ask me. Like most of the series' leaders he suffers a form of myopia too, and it is a portion of that shortsightedness -- his persistent mistreatment of his son -- that results in his own demise.

[Antonius Pius]

And... ending the war isn't to his benefit?

An end that sows the seeds for the next one isn't completely a plus. Don't forget Elia Martell. Or Ned Stark at that point. Ned and all of Dorne would have liked nothing better than to string up Tywin right there and then.

Tywin doesn't generally act out of spite.

You are not my son. To Tyrion, and a similar statement to Jaime when Jaime refuses to relinquish his position als Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Not spoken to his sister for a year/half a year because she mentioned that Tyrion was like him. Marching his father's mistress naked through Lannisport for two weeks because she pilfered jewels (but her real crime was aspiring to something above her station). Betraying Aerys for stealing Jaime. Abandoning Aerys for refusing to let Cersei marry Rhaegar. Having Elia Martell murdered for taking Rhaegar in Cersei's stead.

Look at how he treated the people who yielded after the Kings Landing battle, and how he treated Robb's bannermen post Red Wedding. Joffrey's screeching about how he wants them all beheaded as traitors, but it's Tywin who very wisely says that if someone kneels you have to help them to their feet, else nobody will.

He definitely has political acumen, but no morals. Remember the scene in the Small Council when Mace Tyrell, Paxter Redwyne and Mathis Rowan take their seat? He brushes over the fact that he had ordered Gregor to kill Elia (which they all know about), while discussing justice for Dorne and Mathis Rowan Looks ready to gag, while Tyrion thinks "But Father, wasn't that you?"

His ego is enormous, no question, but it's no larger than that of many other house leaders. The system promotes arrogant men, and creates them. The difference between Tywin and them is that he can back it up with determination, willpower and ruthlessness.

You are putting far too much stock in efficiency. There's a price for Tywin's efficiency. Ask All-for-Joffry about that, if you recall the character.

There's no defending what he does with Tyrion, but his employment of Gregor et al is an entirely separate issue. He views them as useful, effective tools, and he puts them to very great use.

The fact that he sees no problem in murder and rape says something about the morals of the character you are admiring. Gregor and Lorch are animals dressed up as humans. Only Rorge and Biter are worse. And yet Tywin uses them to the utmost of their evil abilities. To incite his enemies. It's quite something to callously condemn people to murder and rape, yet Tywin doesn't bat an eye.

Not to mention that it makes him the most hated lord in all of Westeros, except for Walder Frey. There's a reckoning coming to House Lannister, and it's coming because he didn't feel like restraint.

But as already pointed out, Tywin had very little to do with the Red Wedding. He wanted Robb shot with an arrow in the field. It was Walder Frey and Roose Bolton who put together the whole massacre. Tywin just gave them the nod and said he wouldn't punish them for it afterwards.

Say what you will, it still reeks of Tywin Lannister. The Blackfish.

He's not always a one-note character. You can't just describe him as cold, ruthless and practical. He has his dips, he has issues that incite him to feats of emotion that often cause him to act in ways he normally doesn't, and Tyrion is one of them. But trying to accuse him of vanity is... tenuous. Yes he likes to have pretty armour, but this is not Loras f'n Tyrell we're talking about. Tywin's undoubtedly a disciplined, focused man.

But he is driven by the idea that House Lannister must be greatest of them all. That is his mad vanity. His daughter must be a queen, his son must be a knight without peer. Funny how he has both.

He was a lot like Loras in that he had to have golden lions everywhere. I bet he had golden lionhead toiletpaper dispenser in his privy shaft.

The murder of Elia is because she dared to aspire to the match that Tywin had decided belonged to Cersei. The Riverlands werew burned and plunged into war for the abduction of Tyrion, and subsequently plundered and put to the sword to keep the initiative.

And yet, Tywin managed to give the kingdom two decades of peace before Aerys's lunacy led to war.

Tywin's definitely capable. He's also evil.

Exactly. He accepts the allegiance of an army that was on its way to annihilate the rule of his children and grand-children. An army that, if Stannis hadn't pulled out his black magic hat trick, would have likely taken King's Landing and put his daughter's head on a spike. Contrast that to Ned Stark, who completely refused Littlefinger's plan to take the regency for Joffrey out of anger due to the threats on his son's life, and the deaths of his men.

Ned wasn't the best player in the game of thrones, to put it mildly. But note how neither Stannis nor Robb nor Ned systematically murdered smallfolk to further their goals. Though Stannis was definitely slipping on that slope.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that he never acts out of spite, but he's remarkably good at converting potential enemies into allies (not the same as friends).

It's called terrorism.

As for the issue of Dornish vengeance,

1. The Dornish had been angry, but were basically all talk despite Doran's claims in AFFC. Whether or not they liked him, Tywin and the Throne had their allegiance, and Tyrion cemented it by sending Myrcella to Dorne.

Not so, Oberyn (and Dorne with him) was ready to rebel, and so was Dorne upon learning of Oberyn's death. It took Doran to talk them out of it, twice.

After that, most of Robb's victories come against other Lannister forces (like the host assembled by Stefford Lannister). Tywin himself positions his army at Harrenhal, which allows him to sweep southward to defend King's Landing if word gets out that Stannis has sailed, or sweep north to meet Robb's host if they march from Riverrun southward.

Note that Tywin did not plan on joining with Renly's army, but kept in the neighbourhood to be able to assist King's Landing. That Renly died and his army defected to the Lannisters was because of Littlefinger. Tywin was simply the lucky recipient.

(Upon a closer reading I see you're not suggesting what I thought I was refuting ;) )

Tywin seemed to have this combination of self-delusion and distrust for his children, which shows up most strongly in Tyrion (whom he hates for the death of Joanna and because Tyrion doesn't fit the image he wants to show of House Lannister) and Jaime (where he's kept this fantasy of Jaime leaving the Kingsguard and becoming his true heir alive right up until the point where Jaime tells him that it's not going to happen).

He has a glaring blindspot for his children. He only sees what he has pre-determined to see (a queen, a knight and not-his-son).

The gang rape of Tysha alone makes him worse than Robert, who was incredibly neglectful towards his children.

Robert was a lot more neglectful. He also abused Cersei. But he was not as evil as Tywin.