Why does everyone call her Cersei Lannister and not Baraetheon?

[Lexy Boleyn]

I think it has to do with one of the most important notions in Westeros: loyalty. When a woman marries a man, she's supposed to be one with him, but that's theory. Taking her husband's name is a sign of how loyal the wife is to her husband: you take his name, you take his value and side, no matter what'll happen and if you'll have to face your own kin. Cersei certainly wasn't loyal to House Baratheon, and neither is Selyse, in her way ( she keeps trying her husand to act according to Melisandre's demands, no matter his objections). Catelyn, on the contrary, is totally loyal to her children's House, hence the name changing. Concerning Lysa... As she was "soiled goods", she surely had to do her best to prove her loyalty for the man who saved her from dishonor ( and women who had pre marital sex were seen as probable future adulteress in Middle Ages, so she needed to clear this doubt).

[Queen Cersei I]

Having said that, I don't think it is entirely unproblematic. I totally agree with what you said about Cersei being the only woman to explicitly voice feminist concerns, although I do think they underlay pretty much all of the female narratives. It is especially unfair because it sets Cersei up as the 'feminist' voice, when of course she is anything but - in fact, she's more misogynistic than most of the men.

Great post, holding. And I agree with much of what you’ve said.

However, I think you are a bit too hard on Cersei for (what you term) her misogyny. Cersei does indeed at times think degrading stuff about women in general. However, in all fairness to her she lives in an incredibly patriarchal environment, where all that she wants most (power, recognition, and, though this is frequently not acknowledged by fans, personal autonomy and control over her own body) is afforded exclusively to men. Thus, she wants to be male, and it’s no wonder—if she were a guy, she would have never had to marry Robert, never been raped or abused; would have had the chance to be Tyrwin’s true heir, as she want’s to be, etc. (Of course, it is constantly spelled out that Cersei is a fool, and her being kept back was simply a result of her being an idiot, rather than her femaleness. Furthermore, it is strongly implied that it was the patriarchy that kept a crazy, incompetent nutbag like Cersei from screwing everything up to begin with. Her father, Tyrion, even Robert—all blessings in disguise, though the foolish Cersei cursed them. While she said they held her back, it was really the patriarchy that saved everyone. Each of these men (even Robert) was a far, far better ruler than Cersei.)

But back to Cersei—I think that she hate’s her situation, hates being a woman. And I don’t really blame her. One thing that mildly bugs me is that Cersei is portrayed as somewhat “unnatural” for her hatred of her husband and her rebellion against him, while good women like Dany and Cat are clearly loving and submissive. Her hatred of the role she must play, and the repression of her ambitions and desires, lead her to equate femininity with weakness. Which leads her to say nasty, degrading things about women in general. She doesn’t want to consider herself as one of them; she wants to be better, stronger, Tywin’s true heir. So she vents her frustrations on other women, which take the form of cutting, denigrating (and occasionally rather hypocritical) comments.

Of course, Cersei is a horrible person, for reasons utterly unrelated to her misogyny (or internalized self-hatred and frustration with her subservient position. Whatever you want to call it.)

Also, I disagree that Cersei’s progression in AFFC was wholly consistent with her portrayal in earlier books. In some ways, she followed a logical progression. However, in several significant ways she acted utterly out of character, in ways that could not be explained by the change in her situation, her recent trauma/ personal losses, or her acquisition of a POV. (Whereas before we had always been seeing her from the outside.) But that’s another subject…

[holding]

However, I think you are a bit too hard on Cersei for (what you term) her misogyny. Cersei does indeed at times think degrading stuff about women in general. However, in all fairness to her she lives in an incredibly patriarchal environment, where all that she wants most (power, recognition, and, though this is frequently not acknowledged by fans, personal autonomy and control over her own body) is afforded exclusively to men. Thus, she wants to be male

Oh, absolutely. In the same way that we see how Tyrion's upbringing has twisted him, so Cersei's personality has been warped by the misfortune of being born a woman in Westeros. She and Jaime were identical in every way - if anything, she was the braver and more ambitious - and just because he was a boy he got a sword, and power, and glory, and she got to be sold into marriage to a man she hated and had to be subservient to. So obviously the patriarchy is at fault here, and there is a clear discourse of masculinity as being superior to femininity that Cersei buys into. But a kinder, more empathetic woman would be able to relate her situation to that of women in general; instead, she thinks it is unfair not the way that women are treated, but the way that she is treated. She doesn't want to stop the systemized misogyny of Westeros, instead she wants to be on the winning side of it, so to speak, and we see that in her scene with Taena. Now, obviously that plays into ideas of bargaining with the patriarchy, but I think while that's what, for example, Sansa is definitely doing, Cersei takes it one step further, and I think it is fair to say she is, if not a misogynist, definitely no feminist.

Also, I disagree that Cersei’s progression in AFFC was wholly consistent with her portrayal in earlier books. In some ways, she followed a logical progression. However, in several significant ways she acted utterly out of character, in ways that could not be explained by the change in her situation, her recent trauma/ personal losses, or her acquisition of a POV. (Whereas before we had always been seeing her from the outside.) But that’s another subject…

Yeah, that's a different, much longer, debate. I know that most people dislike AFFC, and in particular Cersei's point of view in it. I personally loved it, and loved Cersei's characterisation and narrative arc. The only thing I would have changed is to have put Tyrion's POV chapters in there too, as I think all three Lannisters are functioning in a very similar way at this point, and having them next to each other would make it harder to argue that Tyrion is a good guy and Cersei a crazy bitch. Because, yes, she's totally unravelling, but so are all three of them (right down to their own individual little mantras of insanity). And I think a lot of the issues with her characterisation are to do with people wanting her to be some kind of evil genius, which she has never been, because nobody is (except for maybe Littlefinger, but there's a reason why he could never have a POV). I've read a lot of what you've written about AFFC, and I think what it comes down to is that while I agree with you about most things, my take is a lot more positive than yours. I think you put too much store in the opinions of fans (and, without insulting anyone, this fandom in particular is insanely rife with sexism and general awfulness); I tend to focus on my own reading of the text. For example, as I've mentioned before, I don't read Jaime's chapters at the end of AFFC even close to the same way as you do. I firmly believe, and only time will tell, that we are not meant to see Jaime as on a positive, redemptive arc. I think he's just as lost and dark and bitter as Tyrion, and we're supposed to see him as such, and not be cheering him on. But lots of fans don't see it that way, and that obviously affects the way you read the Cersei chapters. In the same way, lots of people talk about how stupid Cersei is in AFFC, and how that's different from the early books. But I don't think she's ever portrayed as stupid - reckless, arrogant and blinded by pride, yes, but she's still very astute (see: her assessment of the Tyrells) and cunning. And I think all of these qualities have been established as far back as AGOT - her first act as Regent, for example, was removing Barristan Selmy from the Kingsguard, a truly short sighted decision based purely on emotion. That's just how she works, and I don't really know what else people were expecting from her POV.

Aaaand after saying I wouldn't discuss it, I've managed to write a whole paragraph. I do have essays about actual serious subjects I should be working on right now, and I can't stop talking about feminism and ASoIaF. I should totally just make this my dissertation. FWIW, I'm also trying to defend the character (because she, and by extension Jaime, will always be my favourites), just in a slightly different way to you.

[Orlov]

It depends on the political power or proeminence of your house, I guess. Catelyn was called a Stark only by northerners. When he was at the riverlands (and it was convenient) she was called Tully.

Lannisters are the very base of Baratheon power over Westeros. Also, she is way too proud to let herself be called Baratheon. If only Robert was a decent man, it would be different, who knows?

[DaBillmann]

A few more:

Alannys Harlaw, wife of Balon Greyjoy

Alerie Hightower, wife of Mace Tyrell

Mellario of Norvos, wife of Doran Martell

Minisa Whent, wife of Hoster Tully

Dorna Swyft, wife of Kevan Lannister

In fact, it seems that keeping one's maiden name is the norm in Westeros, and Cat and Lysa are the exceptions rather than the rule.

In fact, isn't Fat Walda stil lreferred to Walda Frey instead of Walda Bolton?

[Aengus Millen]

In the show and maybe in the book they called they announced the king as Joffrey of house Baratheon and Lannister I don't know why obviously Robert owed much to Tywin but not enough to take his name.

[Evamitchelle]

I seem to remember the Crown owing 3 million gold dragons to House Lannister. That's enough to have your children share a last name I think.

[the judge]

Why isn't Genna Lannister called Genna Frey??

[Queen Cersei I]


Why isn't Genna Lannister called Genna Frey??


Oh, come on. Do you remember her husband from AFFC? Would you want to take that guys last name, or be associated with him any more than you absolutely had to be?

Also, like Cersei, Genna was singularly proud of her heritage and considered herself, “very much a Lannister.” Also like Cersei, Genna clearly does not take a very high view of her husband, and is generally the dominant partner in relationship. Unlike Cersei, however, Genna is drawn with some degree of affection.

In addition to the obvious reasons for Genna wanting to be known as Genna Lannister rather than Genna Frey, there is also the issue (constantly implied in the scenes that she shares with her husband) that the wrong one is wearin’ the pants in that marriage. A similar thing is done with Cersei and Robert, only more subtlety, and GRRM is not laughing at this one. (He portrays Genna and her husband with a certain amount of good humor-- Genna is the tough, unfaithful, incredibly bossy, domineering but basically decent old battle ax; Emmon is the classic weak, self-important, stupid and pussy whipped husband. ( The text implies that, while hardly admirable, it is understandable that Jenna cheats on and dominates him, since he’s such a pathetic wanker regardless. )

Not so with Cersei and Robert-- though he draws him as clearly flawed, GRRM portrays Robert as clearly the victim of his wife's evil unnatural desire for control (which, as we learn in AFFC, really just means that Cersei must really want to be a man!) Throughout AGOT, there are indications that Cersei is a heartless, unnatural woman/ bitch because she refuses to play the submissive female role, and care for and submit to her husband. She clearly attempts to have a hand in all of his decisions (choosing the Kingsguard and a variety of other issues), gets her way on most everything (when she complains to Jaime of Ned Stark being hand, she laments that she did not insist to Robert that Jaime receive the title—apparently, Cersei’s express wishes cannot be ignored), and openly displays contempt for her husband's drunken incompetence.* She is the classic emasculating woman/ shrew archetype, throwing off lines like, "The king I thought I'd married would have hunted down that wolf and lay it's pelt on my bed," constantly (and evilly) taking both control and little snipes at her husband throughout the book like this. (I feel as though I've heard almost this exact same line from countless bitch/ shrew stock characters, only replacing "king" with "man," and ending with a different example.)

This all reaches a climax in the scene in which Cersei out and out says "Hey Robert, I should be the guy, because you are so totally ineffectual at it, you fucking old pussy," and Robert bitch slaps her against the room. Though I've heard frequently that we are supposed to feel for Cersei here, numerous factors make me feel it's a whole lot more ambiguous.

First, before Robert punches Cersei, they have her saying a lot of obnoxious, nasty stuff, acting the part of the comic book villain. They then have Robert warning her again and again. "Woman-- shut your mouth, quiet, etc." (Because-- you get it-- Robert is the king and The Man in the relationship, and Cersei making demands, questioning his judgment, and actually challenging him (thinking she can/ should rule by herself) is yet more evidence of this evil shrews emasculation of him.) Then we have, right after it is done, one moment of what appears to be quiet dignity and triumph from Cersei. (Really, the only one I can think of from the books. Unlike the other (male) villains, who get a sort of evil grandeur, Cersei never gets moment's of evil brilliance or "badass" moments-- she's frequently made to look as stupid, ridiculous, and unworthy as possible. The only two times she’s portrayed with true sympathy at any length (i.e., more than one paragraph) she’s a sexualized victim.)

King Robert backhands her across the room, but Cersei keeps her dignity intact. (“Cersei Lannister did not cry out.”) But then, Cersei has an extremely lame line (“I will wear it as a badge of honor,”) and then King Bob, after spending the entire book thus far showing as much wit and cleverness as a block of wood, has an unbelievably clever comeback, “Keep silent or I shall honor you again.” Wow! Burned by king Robert, formerly his royal witlessness, transformed by Cersei’s evil bitchery and a bit of domestic violence into Littlefinger the Second. Then he calls for a guard, and Cersei is escorted out of the room pathetically like a prisoner. Directly after she exits, King Bob shows his fear and vulnerability, acting more sympathetic than he has in the entire book thus far. In the end, it appears as though the audience is intended to sympathize with King Bob, and not blame him for hitting Cersei.

Many things—including Cersei repeatedly ignoring Robert’s demands to stop; the general (emasculating) nature of her comments to him in this scene; King Robert getting the better of Cersei verbally, and getting an uncharacteristically witty/ clever line immediately after he hits her, and encouraging readers to empathize with Robert just after he hits her leads me to the conclusion that most of the readers sympathy is supposed to be with Robert. He is a good but simple-minded man at the end of his rope, driven there by an obnoxious bitch.

There is even some evidence that readers are, on some level, encouraged to cheer/ feel gratified at King Bob’s action. (In the TV version, far more ambiguous than that of the book, numerous people have expressed happiness/ gratification at Robert punching Cersei. See “Robert’s Pimp hand,” the u tube video. And on the T.V. version, Cersei was portrayed as far more sympathetic, Robert generally far less sympathetic, than in the books. Also, there’s the fact that here, Robert did not hit Cersei nearly as hard as he was supposed to have in the book, and Cersei is shown with more dignity as she walks out herself, rather than being shown being dragged from the room by a guard like a prisoner.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She's hardly the only married queen or even married woman in the series to retain her maiden name. Look at Margaery Tyrell and Elia Martell. We still refer to them by their maiden names. No one says Margaery Baratheon or Elia Targaryen, do they?

[mor2]

Cersei has been married to Robert for 15 years. Why does everyone in the realm call her Cersei Lannister, from the nobles right down to the random sellsword who makes lewd remarks about her in AFFC? They refer to Catelyn as Catelyn Stark, to Lysa as Lysa Arryn etc, but Cersei remains Cersei Lannister when casually referred to by pretty much everyone.

Why?

Brand recognition :dunno:

[Zmeischa]

"Lannister" isn't a surname in a modern sense. She is "Cersei from the House Lannister", and that didn't change when she got married. The same way Blanche of Castille, Margaret of Provence, Jeanne d'Évreux, Catherine de Medici, Anne Neville, Catherine Howard and many others were known by their "maiden names".

[Zar Lannister]

She's hardly the only married queen or even married woman in the series to retain her maiden name. Look at Margaery Tyrell and Elia Martell. We still refer to them by their maiden names. No one says Margaery Baratheon or Elia Targaryen, do they?

Don't people refer to Elia as Elia of Dorne rather than Elia Martell?

Also, refering to Margaery by her Wife Name would be Hilarious, since she is Technically, a Thrice-Baratheon.

[Wouter]

It depends on the political power or proeminence of your house, I guess. Catelyn was called a Stark only by northerners. When he was at the riverlands (and it was convenient) she was called Tully.

As is logical - Catelyn is a Tully after all (you don't become a Stark by marrying them), and in the Riverlands they have always known her as a Tully and will stress that heritage. In the north though, she is only important/known as the wife of Ned Stark and the mother of his (Stark) children, so they would have the tendency to say "lady Stark" because that is how they think of her. It probably helps that Catelyn was well-integrated in the overall Stark family/Stark household and not in any way at odds with her family-in-law, unlike Cersei.

You see this with Sansa as well: Sansa herself reflects on Joffey's wedding day that "they made her a Lannister": she was given a Lannister cloak at her wedding (though she did make Tyrion stand on the back of Dontos to do so - that was a nice dig at Lannister "honour" and made clear she didn't want any Lannister "protection") and she is counted among the Lannister women for ceremonial purposes. However, she does not think about herself as Sansa Lannister, nor does Cersei think about her as Sansa Lannister, or anyone who is looking for her (Brienne, Shadrich for example). Jon does not think about her or refer to her as Sansa Lannister either, hell I don't think even her husband Tyrion ever thinks about her as Sansa Lannister - he is always well aware she is and remains a Stark. However, Stannis does and it is easy to see why in context: he is reminding Jon that Sansa is under Lannister control.

So, no hard and fast rules for names of married women. It depends on context, even for the same women in the same marriage people can use both variants.

The practice of women taking the husband's name has always been weird to me, anyway (and isn't practiced where I live). No matter how much she is called lady Stark, ultimately Catelyn remains the daughter of Minissa Whent and Hoster Tully, and brother of Edmure Tully. Calling her Stark only serves to muddle the issue, like we see with Olenna (I find it easy as reader to forget she is actually a Redwyne, because she is referred to consistently as Tyrell).

[LadyMary]

Great post, holding. And I agree with much of what you’ve said.

However, I think you are a bit too hard on Cersei for (what you term) her misogyny. Cersei does indeed at times think degrading stuff about women in general. However, in all fairness to her she lives in an incredibly patriarchal environment, where all that she wants most (power, recognition, and, though this is frequently not acknowledged by fans, personal autonomy and control over her own body) is afforded exclusively to men. Thus, she wants to be male, and it’s no wonder—if she were a guy, she would have never had to marry Robert, never been raped or abused; would have had the chance to be Tyrwin’s true heir, as she want’s to be, etc. (Of course, it is constantly spelled out that Cersei is a fool, and her being kept back was simply a result of her being an idiot, rather than her femaleness. Furthermore, it is strongly implied that it was the patriarchy that kept a crazy, incompetent nutbag like Cersei from screwing everything up to begin with. Her father, Tyrion, even Robert—all blessings in disguise, though the foolish Cersei cursed them. While she said they held her back, it was really the patriarchy that saved everyone. Each of these men (even Robert) was a far, far better ruler than Cersei.)

There is truth to what you say about Cersei's...frustration at the powerlessness her sex is afforded in that culture. She also knows how to use her sex to exert power in her own way, consider all the men she's bedded to persuade them to do something for her. I don't actually blame her for using what she has, by the way. What else can she do, other than that - or trying to exert influence on her sons, the only males with power that she can manipulate to do what she wants.

Having said that, she's a terrible strategist but that's true of some of the men (just like too-honest-for-his-own-good Ned Stark). She's shrewd about how to get certain people to do what she wants, which is also true of some of the men. Cersei is a cruel person, a narcissist and a sociopath from childhood on. She abused her baby brother for amusement. She pushed a girl down a well to her death in a fit of jealousy. She uses people to serve her ends and disposes of them when they are no longer of use to her or just annoy her for whatever reason. She turns a blind eye to Qyburn's torturous experimentation and actually gives him his victims while making sure she doesn't have to hear about it. She's not a good person; she's awful. That's no different than some of the worst men in the series and she's no different than her sociopathic father in that. I think that's why people condemn her character - at least that's how I feel about her. And by the way, other sociopaths in the story are equally despised as they should be.

But back to Cersei—I think that she hate’s her situation, hates being a woman. And I don’t really blame her. One thing that mildly bugs me is that Cersei is portrayed as somewhat “unnatural” for her hatred of her husband and her rebellion against him, while good women like Dany and Cat are clearly loving and submissive. Her hatred of the role she must play, and the repression of her ambitions and desires, lead her to equate femininity with weakness. Which leads her to say nasty, degrading things about women in general. She doesn’t want to consider herself as one of them; she wants to be better, stronger, Tywin’s true heir. So she vents her frustrations on other women, which take the form of cutting, denigrating (and occasionally rather hypocritical) comments.

I understand Cersei's feelings about Robert, about her father, and about the crap that women have to put up with in her patriarchal society. No woman should have to endure a chronically unfaithful husband who forces himself on her and beats her up when he feels like it. If it weren't for the fact that Cersei has abused and used other people for most of her life, I'd be more sympathetic to her woe-is-me tales. If she were able to empathize with the suffering of other people, especially other women, I'd be willing to cut her some slack. But with Cersei, it's always about Cersei and that's part of why I find her internal ruminations on her lot in life a bit thin.

Of course, Cersei is a horrible person, for reasons utterly unrelated to her misogyny (or internalized self-hatred and frustration with her subservient position. Whatever you want to call it.)

Also, I disagree that Cersei’s progression in AFFC was wholly consistent with her portrayal in earlier books. In some ways, she followed a logical progression. However, in several significant ways she acted utterly out of character, in ways that could not be explained by the change in her situation, her recent trauma/ personal losses, or her acquisition of a POV. (Whereas before we had always been seeing her from the outside.) But that’s another subject…

The biggest difference in AFFC is that we see the inner workings of her mind. We have hints that she's been a sociopath for a long time, but her paranoia seems to increase after Joffrey's murder, which is understanable - especially knowing about the witch's prophesy. But what does she do about it? She blames Tyrion, and by extension Sansa. She openly plots to frame Maegery for the kind of "crimes" she commits herself and uses the very same sexual double-standard that she hates to try to condemn her rival for Tommen's affections. It comes back to bite her because she's a terrible strategist who doesn't think about the implications of her short term plotting, but it's a little hard to feel sympathy for someone who does unto others the very things she despises being done to herself.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Don't people refer to Elia as Elia of Dorne rather than Elia Martell?

Also, refering to Margaery by her Wife Name would be Hilarious, since she is Technically, a Thrice-Baratheon.

I swear I've seen Elia referred to as both. Either way, it's a nod to her maiden name and/or place of birth and no one ever refers to her as Elia Targaryen, which is the whole point. Just like no one refers to Margaery as Margaery Baratheon.

[Skeksi]

It's a little unclear in the books, regarding what happens when a woman gets married- there doesn't really seem to be a "fast and hard" rule.

The only women I can think of off the top of my head who are usually addressed by their married name are

Catelyn Stark

Lysa Arryn

Olenna Tyrell

Even then, I'm pretty sure that they've been referred to as Cat/ Lysa Tully and Olenna Redwyne by other characters- Cat certainly has, especially when she was in the Riverlands. Cersei thinks "Catelyn Tully was a mouse..." re. Jon, I'm sure of it. It seems that she's thought of as Catelyn Tully a lot outside of the North. Jon think of her as Catelyn Tully Stark at one point in Game of Thrones.

Lysa, on the other hand, is usually referred to as Lysa Arryn (are there any text examples of her being cally Tully following her marriage?). I suspect this has more to do with politics- she is Jon Arryn's widow, Robert Arryn's mother, and rules the Eyrie as regent. Her power in the Vale stems from her former marriage and her child, and she remains in the Eyrie for most of the series. Ned is "Lord Stark", and Robb takes up the rule of Winterfell, and of the North, after he dies- Cat doesn't really have a chance to be "Lady Regent of the North", when having the Stark name would benefit her. Note that when Lysa marries Petyr Baelish, she is still referred to as Arryn, which you wouldn't think would be the case if she just changed her name to prove her devotion- let's be honest, Lysa adored Littlefinger.

In Cersei's case, whilst she rules as regent for Tommen (and theoretically for Joffrey), by the time they come to the throne, the war of the 5 kings is beginning- the other two Baratheon brothers have split off, refusing to recognise Joffrey as king. It's quite obvious that the Lannisters are the "side" of the King on the Iron Throne, so whilst Joffrey and Tommen have to keep their last names, especially with their legitimacy in question, Cersei calling herself Cersei Baratheon is not like to strengthen her rule- either people are loyal to the throne, and know the Lannisters are mostly in power here, or they've already sided with Stannis or Renly.

It seems to be the case that women retain their last name after marriage, generally, except when it is politically advisable. And, probably some choose to. It's all pretty unclear, though.

[Wouter]

Catelyn probably does benefit from being known (in the north) as "lady Stark" though, when she is running Winterfell in Ned's absence, as happened in part of AGOT. Allthough it is the same person by another name, "lady Stark" probably gets more respect from Stark subjects than "Catelyn Tully" would.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

I still hear people call her Catelyn Tully sometimes though.

[Hear Us Roar]

an oversight by GRRM