Datepalm Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Smaller and questionier than ever before. The last subject in thread 8 seems to have been whether we may consider unCat and (un?)Beric vampires. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asarlai Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I'm pretty sure they say in AFFC that she never sleeps. Don't know about eating or drinking, though.Anyway, aren't vampires referred to in some circles as undead? I'm pretty sure they are, yet they still act with greater purpose and sentience than zombies or wights. So really, I don't see why Beric and Catelyn cannot also be considered undead. Undead refers to the dead that imitate life, not the dead brought back to life. Like... how often do you hear Jesus referred to as undead (besides internet jokes)? If Thoros/Beric can "breath life" back into someone, then it means they're alive, not animated corpses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Undead refers to the dead that imitate life, not the dead brought back to life. Like... how often do you hear Jesus referred to as undead (besides internet jokes)? If Thoros/Beric can "breath life" back into someone, then it means they're alive, not animated corpses.From Wikipedia:"Undead is a collective name for fictional, mythological, or legendary beings that are deceased and yet behave as if alive. Undead may be incorporeal, such as ghosts, or corporeal, such as vampires and zombies."Is it your contention that vampires merely imitate life? Because if they do, then they imitate life so well that they appear to be actually alive. But if that's the case, who's to say that's not what Beric or Catelyn are doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Not sure if its the right thread to ask, but based on GOT episode tonight Mirri Maz duur started doing her blood magic in the tent ready to sacrifice the horse forbidding everyone else to enter it lest they be cursed or die, then Dany started having miscarriage/birthpains and Jorah brought her to the tent where magic was done thus causing the death of the baby. Is that right? I kind of thought that Mirri maz duur killed the baby using its life for the life of Khal Drogo on purpose, did I read it wrong? The episode makes it seem that Mirri Maz duur just wanted to punish Khal Drogo and Dany and her baby got in the wrong place and wrong time.Also, I always wondered did Mirri Maz Duur actually honestly was healing Khal Drogo's wound and it just got infected or did she made his wound go bad on purpose? I always felt if Drogo left the wound be as Dothraki usually did, he would have gotten better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asarlai Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 From Wikipedia:"Undead is a collective name for fictional, mythological, or legendary beings that are deceased and yet behave as if alive. Undead may be incorporeal, such as ghosts, or corporeal, such as vampires and zombies."Is it your contention that vampires merely imitate life? Because if they do, then they imitate life so well that they appear to be actually alive. But if that's the case, who's to say that's not what Beric or Catelyn are doing?Maybe they are undead, but there's not direct evidence, and from the description, as well as the nature of the source (Thoros,allegedly from the god of Life), it seems likely to actually be a resurrection. They don't have the elements of the supernatural present in vampires or the walking dead look of zombies, rather they are human and alive once more. If they were merely animated dead, Beric couldn't have been killed like a normal human being.Not sure if its the right thread to ask, but based on GOT episode tonight Mirri Maz duur started doing her blood magic in the tent ready to sacrifice the horse forbidding everyone else to enter it lest they be cursed or die, then Dany started having miscarriage/birthpains and Jorah brought her to the tent where magic was done thus causing the death of the baby. Is that right? I kind of thought that Mirri maz duur killed the baby using its life for the life of Khal Drogo on purpose, did I read it wrong? The episode makes it seem that Mirri Maz duur just wanted to punish Khal Drogo and Dany and her baby got in the wrong place and wrong time.Also, I always wondered did Mirri Maz Duur actually honestly was healing Khal Drogo's wound and it just got infected or did she made his wound go bad on purpose? I always felt if Drogo left the wound be as Dothraki usually did, he would have gotten better.Mirri Maz Duur does say that Dany's child was part of the price, so it doesn't seem like an incidental effect of Jorah carrying her in. Rather, as the magic was being worked, it seems that the baby was expelled by the magic/spirits.And she did admit to killing Drogo, so it was intentional from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 And she did admit to killing Drogo, so it was intentional from the start.Or, she knew her life was forfeit once Drogo died, so maybe she claimed that as a final act of defiance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asarlai Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Or, she knew her life was forfeit once Drogo died, so maybe she claimed that as a final act of defiance.Eh, Dany very well may have allowed a saddened but failed healer to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Eh, Dany very well may have allowed a saddened but failed healer to live.she had no power over the khalasar after Drogo's death. She could not have saved the healer's life, even if she wanted to. She could barely save her own life, and she would have been sent back to Vaes Dothrak without the dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha5099 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Expansion on my previous question about Arya's knowledge of Bran and Rickon. Here is what I think each of the surviving Stark kids (and Jon) currently believes about their siblings. Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these.Bran - Seems to be aware through warging that something bad has happened to Robb and Grey Wind, does not necessarily know details of Red Wedding. Depending on what Sam told him, may think Jon is still lost beyond the wall. Still thinks Sansa is in King's Landing. Believes Arya is missing and presumed dead. Knows Rickon is alive.Sansa - Knows about the Red Wedding. Knows that Jon is Lord Commander. Believes Bran and Rickon are dead. Believes Arya is missing and presumed dead.Arya - Knows about the Red Wedding. Knows that Jon is Lord Commander. Believes Bran and Rickon are dead. Presumably aware that Sansa is on the lam after Joffrey's death.Jon - Knows about the Red Wedding. Believes Bran and Rickon are dead. Believes Arya is missing and presumed dead. Presumably knows Joffrey is dead, cannot remember if he knows of Sansa's supposed involvement.Rickon - Knows Bran is alive. Last we saw him, Red Wedding yet to happen; depending on where Osha and he have gone, may have heard. Rickon may also have learned about it through warging or dreams, depending on the extent of his powers. At end of ACoK, he would have known Jon was at the wall, that Sansa was in King's Landing, and that Arya was missing (he probably wouldn't presume her dead, being so young). Obviously he might know a lot more when next we see him.Is all that accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Bran - Seems to be aware through warging that something bad has happened to Robb and Grey Wind, does not necessarily know details of Red Wedding. It's unclear whether Bran knows the details of the Red Wedding, but he knows that Robb and Grey Wind are dead."... The dream he'd had... the dream Summer had had... No, I mustn't think about that dream. He had not even told the Reeds, though Meera at least seemed to sense that something was wrong. If he never talked of it maybe he could forget he dreamed it, and then it wouldn't have happened and Robb and Grey Wind would still be... " (US aSoS pg 755) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asarlai Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 she had no power over the khalasar after Drogo's death. She could not have saved the healer's life, even if she wanted to. She could barely save her own life, and she would have been sent back to Vaes Dothrak without the dragons.I seem to recall Mirri Maz Duur being alive after all but the weakest 100 of the Khalasar left, and that Dany was the one who ordered her death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Maybe they are undead, but there's not direct evidence, and from the description, as well as the nature of the source (Thoros,allegedly from the god of Life), it seems likely to actually be a resurrection. They don't have the elements of the supernatural present in vampires or the walking dead look of zombies, rather they are human and alive once more. If they were merely animated dead, Beric couldn't have been killed like a normal human being.You said Cat and Beric can't be undead because they're not "pretending to be alive." I simply pointed out that since vampires are undead, "pretending to be alive" doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for calling someone undead. Now you're throwing out all other sorts of criteria, like "they don't look like zombies" or "they don't have supernatural elements like vampires" or "they can be killed." Those points were never in contention, and were never raised as criteria for being undead. "Pretending to be alive" is the criterion in contention, and I've clearly shown that it's invalid.Beric and Catelyn are undead. No, they don't look like zombies, but that's because they're not zombies. No, they don't have the supernatural power of vampires, but that's because they're not vampires. And yes, they can be killed, but then again so can zombies and vampires. None of these things make them something other than undead. Dying and being raised from the dead are what's needed for them to be undead, and those criteria clearly apply.But this is coming dangerously close to thread-jacking, so if you'd like to discuss it further then maybe we should open another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrigan Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Undead refers to the dead that imitate life, not the dead brought back to life. Like... how often do you hear Jesus referred to as undead (besides internet jokes)? If Thoros/Beric can "breath life" back into someone, then it means they're alive, not animated corpses.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/undead–adjective1.no longer alive but animated by a supernatural force, as a vampire or zombie.— adja. (of a fictional being, such as a vampire) technically dead but reanimatedYou lose. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillWork4NinjaPowers Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Okay but...if the undead, in whatever way you want to describe them or who you consider to be undead, Stoneheart for instance, if she was to be..."killed" by an Other, would she come back as a wight? Is that possible? Or if magic was used to raise the dead of people not killed by Others, would they be able to be turned to wights, or is that just what happens to living never dead or brought back to life, people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asarlai Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/undead–adjective1.no longer alive but animated by a supernatural force, as a vampire or zombie.— adja. (of a fictional being, such as a vampire) technically dead but reanimatedYou lose. :DUm... I win. Cat and Beric are not dead, they are alive. They are not reanimated, they are resurrected. There are differences there. A reanimated corpse is a far cry from a resurrected life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Um... I win. Cat and Beric are not dead, they are alive. They are not reanimated, they are resurrected. There are differences there. A reanimated corpse is a far cry from a resurrected life.Wrong again.re·an·i·mate [ree-an-uh-meyt] Show IPA–verb (used with object), -mat·ed, -mat·ing.1.to restore to life; resuscitate.2.to give fresh vigor, spirit, or courage to.3.to stimulate to renewed activity. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Are you lot having an argument about the state of deadness of Beric an Cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Are you lot having an argument about the state of deadness of Beric an Cat?well, the undeadness, but, unfortunately, yessome people will find the strangest excuses to boost their post count [doesn't name names]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Wrong again.re·an·i·mate [ree-an-uh-meyt] Show IPA–verb (used with object), -mat·ed, -mat·ing.1.to restore to life; resuscitate.2.to give fresh vigor, spirit, or courage to.3.to stimulate to renewed activity. :PAs this topic clearly is too large for this thread, I suggest one of our friendly moderators splice it off into it's own thread, where it can be properly discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tozka Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Arya - Knows about the Red Wedding. Knows that Jon is Lord Commander. Believes Bran and Rickon are dead. Presumably aware that Sansa is on the lam after Joffrey's death.Arya does not know that Jon is Lord Commander, she heard some people about Lord Snow as Lord Commander but she never made the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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