[ADWD SPOILERS] Tyrion 8

[Ladywhiskers]

Did anyone else start trying to do the math when Tyrion guessed Penny's age and found out her mother had not been a dwarf but her father had? It would be on par with Darth Vader built C3PO, but for a second I thought she was going to turn out to be Tyrion's daughter by Tysha.

Are we sure she isn't?

[Ladywhiskers]

Well... Tyrion being Penny's father... I think he is.

1) Everyone is assuming that Tyrion's age for her is accurate. He could be mistaken. He is a great judge of character, but of age? We do not know. I never seen Tyrion guessing people's ages before.

2) Penny stating what her father said or did does not prove that her father was her father. He could have been her adoptive father. Tysha could have married him because he reminder her of Tyrion (who she loved). Tyrion made her laugh according to Tyrion's tale. Not to mention that Hop-Bean was a mummer slave who traveled to Oldtown and Westeros. He brought his freedom (possibly the coin that Tywin paid Tysha). She didn't want the coin, it was sour money anyway. She gave him the money and he brought his freedom. In exchange, Hop-Bean agreed to be the twins' (Oppo as well) father. The tilts was his jape on Tyrion being a son of a lord and the children being his. Simply what Penny says is not necessarily valid as gold. The name it self suggests that she is. Tysha was given gold and silver, which she never wanted. The thing she prized most was the Penny (her child). The name brings a bad taste to Tyrion's mouth (why?). Tyrion is not attracted to her (why?). Tyrion comforts her and lies to her like a father protecting his child (why?). Tyrion's conscience knows the truth, he has not realized it himself.

I could be wrong, but the connections are too great. Not to mention the one thing Penny says about Oppo. The knights killed him because they thought he was Tyrion. I do not remember the dwarves in the tilt as Joffrey's wedding every opening their helms. However, this would seem to suggest that Oppo looked like Tyrion (because he was his son). Tyrion reminds her of Oppo, because as she stated "he always knew what to do and where to go."

I could be wrong, but It seems too clearly written in the details.

I love this. This would mean that Penny is not just Tyrion's daughter, but his LEGITIMATE daughter, and heir to Casterly Rock after him, now that poor Oppo is dead.

It never occurred to me for a minute that Oppo might have actually resembled Tyrion. I figured they were just killing every dwarf they could find. But Penny saying he reminds her of Oppo hides evidence neatly in plain sight. Perhaps if their helmets had been open, Tyrion might have wondered about Oppo himself--if so much other stuff hadn't been going on.

It makes perfect sense for Tysha to have gone this route, and it would be wonderfully ironic for her to have had his twin children after all she went through. Best of all, it spites Tywin rather nicely. He did everything to prevent Tyrion having any heirs with this girl, and it's nice to think he ultimately failed at that.

I had been wondering for a long time when we were going to see some of the fruits of Tyrion's catting around. Robert got around a little, and we've seen 16 bastards. Tyrion made Robert look like a monk, but probably the whores are using moon tea most of the time, and of course not all of his kids are going to be dwarves, so we wouldn't know Tyrion's bastards if we fell over them, for the most part--they'll look like Jaime and Cersei, not Tyrion. (Pate made me do a double take--he sure looks Lannister.) Tyrion's done so much sleeping around, and never given a single thought to how many offspring he might have sprinkled from Dorne to Casterly Rock. It's only right to have at least one child surface and confront him, and who better than the daughter of the woman he's seeking?

I had noticed that Penny looked a little like Tyrion, and I'd assumed that this was why he wasn't attracted to her. I figured that he couldn't desire a dwarf, because he deeply believes that being a dwarf is what makes him undesirable. I hope they find out that she is his, before anything too untoward happens, because I do believe she really is, now that I've read this. The whole "dwarf's penny" thing plants this subconscious suggestion in the mind--Penny is the ultimate "dwarf's penny."

So....anyone have a good description of her coloring?

[Ayrmidon]

Well... Tyrion being Penny's father... I think he is.

...

...

2) Penny stating what her father said or did does not prove that her father was her father. He could have been her adoptive father. Tysha could have married him because he reminder her of Tyrion (who she loved).

Tysha had every reason to hate Tyrion after the gang rape scene. I do not think she would be actively seeking out a daily reminder of being raped by an entire army followed by the hatred of the one man she had ever loved...who also raped her at the end. I find it extremely unlikely that she would even seek out another dwarf, let alone one who looked like Tyrion.

I could be wrong, but the connections are too great. Not to mention the one thing Penny says about Oppo. The knights killed him because they thought he was Tyrion. I do not remember the dwarves in the tilt as Joffrey's wedding every opening their helms. However, this would seem to suggest that Oppo looked like Tyrion (because he was his son). Tyrion reminds her of Oppo, because as she stated "he always knew what to do and where to go."

Medieval society does not do pictures of people. It is one reason why there are 50 bazillion crests in Westeros: no one knows what anyone looks like, but everyone knows what a lion on a banner means,. Medieval society also struck off body parts not so much as punishment but as identification: someone missing an ear was most likely an ex-con, though those with golden hands could be assumed to have been maimed in war. The idea that Tyrion was "recognized" by the knights is thus silly, since there was no picture of him. There was only "he's a dwarf" and that means every male dwarf for miles has a target on him.

Besides, if there had been a picture, the knights would have taken one look at Oppo's perfect nose and let him go.

So this is no argument for a "Tyrion as father to Penny and Oppo" claim.

[Ayrmidon]

Tyrion's age screws up the entire "Penny is Tyrion's daughter" claim.

Tyrion was ten at the death of Mad King Aerys (283AL), making Tyrion born in 273AL. At the age of 13 (286AL), he marries Tysha for a fortnight (two weeks) before Tywin sets up the lie, the divorce, and the gang rape. This means for Penny to be Tyrion's daughter, she has to be conceived in 286AL. The current year near the end of book five is 300AL. This means that given the date on which Penny would have had to be conceived, if Penny is Tyrion's daughter, Penny is FOURTEEN (14). Now, I'm not a good judge of ages around the age of 18, but I can tell the difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old, and 17 is the low end of Tyrion's guess.

And since Tysha was "Tyrion's first" (no room for pre-age-13 children from Tyrion), and Tyrion's massive whoring started as a result of the incident with Tysha, Penny's age starts moving downwards, not upwards, if her mom was a whore and Tyrion was still her father. Penny conceived when Tyrion was 16? Penny would be ELEVEN (11) now.

Further problems occur with Penny at the age of 14. Turning to Jon Snow for a moment, Jon Snow is 14 when the books begin (298AL), 16 when book five ends. One year after Jon Snow was born, the first winter begins, putting the first winter as starting in 285AL or possibly in 284AL. It was a short winter (Jon Snow says that people commented on its brevity), shorter than the usual length of 6-7 years, so lets place it at 5 years, from 284-289AL or 285-290AL.

Penny has no concept of her brother being anyone other than her full-blood brother, and she says that he is older than she is. This means they grew up together from childhood, in infancy, in Pentos.

So in order for Tysha to have married Hop-Bean in Pentos, and shared parenting of his son Oppo by a previous marriage and Penny right after her birth, she would have had to hop on a ship right away...IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER, while pregnant (286AL) or carrying an infant (286-289AL). Winter is a dangerous time to be on a ship to anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping shuts down in a Westerosi winter. I don't think even the hundred or so silver coins and one gold coin would have been enough to buy passage to Pentos during a Westerosi winter.

So Penny is not the daughter of Tyrion, pure and simple. Its all there in the details.

[Ladywhiskers]

Tyrion's age screws up the entire "Penny is Tyrion's daughter" claim.

Tyrion was ten at the death of Mad King Aerys (283AL), making Tyrion born in 273AL. At the age of 13 (286AL), he marries Tysha for a fortnight (two weeks) before Tywin sets up the lie, the divorce, and the gang rape. This means for Penny to be Tyrion's daughter, she has to be conceived in 286AL. The current year near the end of book five is 300AL. This means that given the date on which Penny would have had to be conceived, if Penny is Tyrion's daughter, Penny is FOURTEEN (14). Now, I'm not a good judge of ages around the age of 18, but I can tell the difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old, and 17 is the low end of Tyrion's guess.

And since Tysha was "Tyrion's first" (no room for pre-age-13 children from Tyrion), and Tyrion's massive whoring started as a result of the incident with Tysha, Penny's age starts moving downwards, not upwards, if her mom was a whore and Tyrion was still her father. Penny conceived when Tyrion was 16? Penny would be ELEVEN (11) now.

Further problems occur with Penny at the age of 14. Turning to Jon Snow for a moment, Jon Snow is 14 when the books begin (298AL), 16 when book five ends. One year after Jon Snow was born, the first winter begins, putting the first winter as starting in 285AL or possibly in 284AL. It was a short winter (Jon Snow says that people commented on its brevity), shorter than the usual length of 6-7 years, so lets place it at 5 years, from 284-289AL or 285-290AL.

Penny has no concept of her brother being anyone other than her full-blood brother, and she says that he is older than she is. This means they grew up together from childhood, in infancy, in Pentos.

So in order for Tysha to have married Hop-Bean in Pentos, and shared parenting of his son Oppo by a previous marriage and Penny right after her birth, she would have had to hop on a ship right away...IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER, while pregnant (286AL) or carrying an infant (286-289AL). Winter is a dangerous time to be on a ship to anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping shuts down in a Westerosi winter. I don't think even the hundred or so silver coins and one gold coin would have been enough to buy passage to Pentos during a Westerosi winter.

So Penny is not the daughter of Tyrion, pure and simple. Its all there in the details.

1) It's only a 3-year age difference between 14 and 17. In our world 14-year-old girls are often mistaken for being much, much older. I would think in Westeros this would be doubly true. I don't think you can always tell a 13-year-old from a 17-year-old. There are 5th graders running around that I'd swear were 17, so I don't think it's as cut and dried as all that.

2) Penny has had a hard life, and she's a dwarf. Both of these things would age her somewhat, making her look very mature for her age. She probably looks a lot more like someone's tired little wife, than a blushing maiden, simply because she hasn't led a life of sewing and lemon cakes. She takes care of dogs, pigs, and, until recently, two men.

3) Tyrion is only guessing, and there are several factors that would impede his guess. The older we get, the more all the ages younger than we are blur together. He is used to ladies and prostitutes, neither of whom tell the truth about their ages--the young ones cheat the numbers up to seem more beddable, and the older ones do the reverse to seem more virginal. But most important, he really doesn't care how old she is. He's not looking to marry her or anything.

I do think it would have mattered a great deal to Tysha to get as far from Tywin Lannister's reach as she humanly could. If that meant spending her one golden coin, I think she would have. And if her money wasn't enough, I think she'd have traded sex, or done hard work on the ship disguised as a boy, or even stowed away in a crate, like Tyrion ultimately did. So the money argument doesn't persuade me at all. Very few people are running around Westeros with gold of any kind--I doubt ships expect that much money for passage. I think they wanted 15 copper from Arya? Something like that?

The pregnancy argument loses me, too. The first few months of pregnancy she might not even have known she was pregnant, so that would not have been a reason not to travel. Even once she knew, it wouldn't be a reason. It's not like she'd have been afraid of losing the baby.

But you raise an excellent point about the availability of ships in the winter. Would there have been any ships to catch? Do we know if shipping shuts down in winter?

Your other good point is that Oppo and Penny probably aren't twins. It's a bit unnecessarily convoluted if Hop-Bean has pretended they had the same mother when they didn't, so I guess I'll concede that if they're not twins, Penny is probably not Tyrion's daughter.

I think Pregnant!Tysha hopping a ship to anywhere but here, is a very likely scenario. But.....I think I'm going back to the Sailor's Wife theory. 1) Lanna is golden-haired, 14, and her name could be a derivative of Lannister. 2) Being a prostitute who marries every single client, does sound like something you'd do, if you'd earned your status as a prostitute by marrying the son of a noble. Making every client a husband is a fine way of erasing the first marriage, the one that started it all.

So, I guess you're right. Penny is no relation. She is simply a pure, simple, bright spot in Tyrion's life. I guess that's good enough.

[Crown]

'One black eye and ten arms,' seems to be a kraken, but which of the Ironborn has one black eye? Interesting. I think Victarion, since he's on his way to Daenerys, but does he have a black eye?

[Symon Silvertongue]

I really hope Second Sons sails for East Watch so Tyrion can meet some snarks and grumpkins. The way he handled Allister i aCoK was not right.

[pourthedamhypocras]

Sorry I just don't think Martin would've made the whole rape of Tysha such a significant and awful event for Tyrion. Big enough for him to kill his father over, or sent us on the "where do whores go" reunion tour , or made Penny and Oppo another obvious set of Lanister twins, or had him refuse Penny, cause it didn't feel right, He'll figure it out or he's not as smart as we think he is.

[voodooqueen126]

In terms of Timeline this chapter has to occur after Cersei's fourth chapter in AFFC.

and after Davos III in ADWD.

[cebollita]

Tyrion's age screws up the entire "Penny is Tyrion's daughter" claim.

Tyrion was ten at the death of Mad King Aerys (283AL), making Tyrion born in 273AL. At the age of 13 (286AL), he marries Tysha for a fortnight (two weeks) before Tywin sets up the lie, the divorce, and the gang rape. This means for Penny to be Tyrion's daughter, she has to be conceived in 286AL. The current year near the end of book five is 300AL. This means that given the date on which Penny would have had to be conceived, if Penny is Tyrion's daughter, Penny is FOURTEEN (14). Now, I'm not a good judge of ages around the age of 18, but I can tell the difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old, and 17 is the low end of Tyrion's guess.

And since Tysha was "Tyrion's first" (no room for pre-age-13 children from Tyrion), and Tyrion's massive whoring started as a result of the incident with Tysha, Penny's age starts moving downwards, not upwards, if her mom was a whore and Tyrion was still her father. Penny conceived when Tyrion was 16? Penny would be ELEVEN (11) now.

Further problems occur with Penny at the age of 14. Turning to Jon Snow for a moment, Jon Snow is 14 when the books begin (298AL), 16 when book five ends. One year after Jon Snow was born, the first winter begins, putting the first winter as starting in 285AL or possibly in 284AL. It was a short winter (Jon Snow says that people commented on its brevity), shorter than the usual length of 6-7 years, so lets place it at 5 years, from 284-289AL or 285-290AL.

Penny has no concept of her brother being anyone other than her full-blood brother, and she says that he is older than she is. This means they grew up together from childhood, in infancy, in Pentos.

So in order for Tysha to have married Hop-Bean in Pentos, and shared parenting of his son Oppo by a previous marriage and Penny right after her birth, she would have had to hop on a ship right away...IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER, while pregnant (286AL) or carrying an infant (286-289AL). Winter is a dangerous time to be on a ship to anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping shuts down in a Westerosi winter. I don't think even the hundred or so silver coins and one gold coin would have been enough to buy passage to Pentos during a Westerosi winter.

So Penny is not the daughter of Tyrion, pure and simple. Its all there in the details.

thank you thank you thank you. all i would have said is here. it would be a painful cliche if Penny turns out to be Tyrion's daughter. i'm 100% not buying that.

PLUS Tyrion had already guessed Young Griff's age before, and everybody believed that. why not now?

anywayyy the perfumed seneschal theory is amazing, i did not have the slightest hint at that!! but my theory is that Penny is the danger, not Jorah or Moqorro. (moqorro was specifically mentioned by Quaithe as, probably, the 'dark flame'; so was Tyrion (lion)). also i agree with the Euron theory, i thought of it too at first

[Ygrette]

Also, the way Tyrion's kind of dwarfism is described (plus the fact that he seems to be only Lannister dwarf), it points to a non-genetic variant. But then again, it's Westeros and I haven't heard of greyscale either. ;)

[Nymeria_Snow]

Did anyone else think back to Varys when they saw this quote? -

A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all

(it's page 508 in my version, which is the first of the 2 uk paperback versions)

Perhaps a nice little link to Clash of Kings?

A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.

[The Tower of Joy]

...() my theory is that Penny is the danger, not Jorah or Moqorro. (moqorro was specifically mentioned by Quaithe as, probably, the 'dark flame'; ...()

I think the dark flame is Marwyn the Mage, but who knows?

We got some more info on the Doom in this chapter :drunk: Pretty epic description by Moqorro !

I do not think Penny is Tyrions daughter, theres to much speaking against this theory.

The perfumed seneschal thing is brilliant, did not pick up on that. Though why should Dany beware of it ? Penny or Moqorro I would guess. Afterall, Jorah is devoted to her.

Not liking the new and bitter Tyrion so much as before, he was absolutely awesome in aCoK, I wish he could go back to being that guy, but after what he's been trough that wont happen. Tyrion is still Tyrion and that's what matters :cheers:

[ColdHandsLuke]

Tyrion's age screws up the entire "Penny is Tyrion's daughter" claim.

Penny is FOURTEEN (14). Now, I'm not a good judge of ages around the age of 18, but I can tell the difference between a 14 year old and a 17 year old, and 17 is the low end of Tyrion's guess.

Penny has no concept of her brother being anyone other than her full-blood brother, and she says that he is older than she is. This means they grew up together from childhood, in infancy, in Pentos.

So in order for Tysha to have married Hop-Bean in Pentos, and shared parenting of his son Oppo by a previous marriage and Penny right after her birth, she would have had to hop on a ship right away...IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER, while pregnant (286AL) or carrying an infant (286-289AL). Winter is a dangerous time to be on a ship to anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping shuts down in a Westerosi winter. I don't think even the hundred or so silver coins and one gold coin would have been enough to buy passage to Pentos during a Westerosi winter.

So Penny is not the daughter of Tyrion, pure and simple. Its all there in the details.

None of these points sway me at all. You have actually pushed me closer to believing the not-as-crackpot-as-we-thought theory.

Tyrion has spent zero time around other dwarves so mistaking a 14 year old with a 17 year old doesn't bother me.

Penny believing that Oppo is her full-blood brother and Hop-Bean is her biological father, isn't much of a leap for me. What else would Tysha say?

Here's what makes sense to me. Tysha has a dwarf daughter. Comes across a kind dwarf father with a toddler son, and thinking about the welfare of her daughter, she marries Hop-Bean and they tell the kids that they are in fact bro-and-sis.

If the last leg supporting the argument that Penny cannot be not Tyrion's is Tysha's ability to find one ship heading across the Narrow Sea in winter when she definitely has money to pay for the passage, then I'm pretty convinced that a painfully-convenient "I am YOU FAAATHER!" moment is coming.