Unpopular Opinions IV

[Tini]

Am I the only one who thinks Tyrion was a bit of a baby regarding the way his father treated him? Not to say he treated him well, I just don't think Tywin treated any of his kids differently. Tyrion seems to think that he was less favoured because he was dwarf, ugly, killed his mother, etc. but from I saw, Tywin treated Cersei even worst. She was pretty much a walking vagina that he would sell into whatever marriage would strengthen the Lannister family (Seriously, Balon Greyjoy (!), Oberyn Martell(!!!)). He seemed to show as much empathy towards Tyrion's nose than Jaimie's hand also.

Tywin treated all of his children abominably because he could not see their worth as individuals. But Tyrion is not absolutely wrong when he considers himself the least favored of his siblings.

As a walking vagina, Cersei still held some worth for Tywin. Tyrion held none.

Jaime's hand held no worth for Tywin, only Jaime did. Jaime did not need his hand to be Tywin's heir, or sire heirs for Casterly Rock. But Jaime refused to follow his father's wishes again, with finality - which would have left his brother Tyrion the heir. This pushed Tywin into getting rid of Tyrion at last. I guess he didn't get rid of Tyrion before because he always believed that Jaime would do as he commanded in the end.

[Alexia]

but he at least saw that she was set up in the highest possible position as a Queen.

He gave Tyrion honorable and responsible work, designated Tyrion as Hand in his stead, and arranged a marriage for him to the heir of Winterfell. Tywin deserves lots of hate for what he did to Tysha, but with that very clear and horrible exception (which I in no way excuse, he got what was coming for it) he actually doesn't treat Tyrion nearly so badly as Tyrion thinks.

Also Tywin ignored Tyrion for most of ACOK and ASOS, and believed Cersei over him. He also let Cersei fix the trial that ensured he would either die or be sent to the Wall. So I have to say I do think he had a genuine gripe with his old Papa.

He also believed that Tyrion was guilty (so did Kevan and just about everyone else) of killing Joffrey and with the matter of Tommen, he did ask Tyrion directly if Cersei was lying.

Overall, Tyrion isn't really treated worse than his siblings (besides the awful incident of Tysha).

[Nev yn]

Tyrion seems to think that he was less favoured because he was dwarf, ugly, killed his mother, etc. but from I saw, Tywin treated Cersei even worst.

You missed the part where Tywin told him he'd never inherit Casterly Rock, right? He didn't even do that to Cersei, and he knew what a raving incompetent loon she was by that point (and Tywin's too smart not to realize just how much of KL holding out against Stannis was due to Tyrion and the harbor chain, so he knows Tyrion is competent even if he overestimates how much his penchant for whoring affects him). And complaining that the Lord of a House would form a marriage that strengthens the House is more complaining about the world where ASoIaF takes place than complaining about the Lord, since everyone does it. Did Lyanna want to marry a brute with a reputation for infidelity? No, but it would have formed a strong alliance with another Great House.

[1234567]

He gave Tyrion honorable and responsible work, designated Tyrion as Hand in his stead, and arranged a marriage for him to the heir of Winterfell. Tywin deserves lots of hate for what he did to Tysha, but with that very clear and horrible exception (which I in no way excuse, he got what was coming for it) he actually doesn't treat Tyrion nearly so badly as Tyrion thinks.

He also believed that Tyrion was guilty (so did Kevan and just about everyone else) of killing Joffrey and with the matter of Tommen, he did ask Tyrion directly if Cersei was lying.

Overall, Tyrion isn't really treated worse than his siblings (besides the awful incident of Tysha).

Oh and he made him Master of the Coin as well. I still think Tyrion had a hard time of it though. The Tysha thing screwed him up for life.

Although I always thought Kevan was convinced by the "evidence", but that Tywin just went along with it when Jaime refused to leave the Kingsguard, to ensure Tyrion couldn't get the Rock.

[brashcandy]

He gave Tyrion honorable and responsible work, designated Tyrion as Hand in his stead, and arranged a marriage for him to the heir of Winterfell. Tywin deserves lots of hate for what he did to Tysha, but with that very clear and horrible exception (which I in no way excuse, he got what was coming for it) he actually doesn't treat Tyrion nearly so badly as Tyrion thinks.

He also believed that Tyrion was guilty (so did Kevan and just about everyone else) of killing Joffrey and with the matter of Tommen, he did ask Tyrion directly if Cersei was lying.

These are valid points but I see them as Tywin using Tyrion more than actually helping him. He couldn't exactly let his son go and be apprenticed to a blacksmith, and when it came to the Hand business, he couldn't go himself and he knew Tyrion at least had some brains to do the job. As for the Sansa marriage, well, that had nothing to do with setting Tyrion up for a good future and everything to do with benefitting the Lannisters - aka Tywin - in the future.

Tywin may do some things that benefit Tyrion incidentally, but overall he has let it be known that he sees Tyrion as worthless and not fit to be his heir.

[1234567]

These are valid points but I see them as Tywin using Tyrion more than actually helping him. He couldn't exactly let his son go and be apprenticed to a blacksmith, and when it came to the Hand business, he couldn't go himself and he knew Tyrion at least had some brains to do the job. As for the Sansa marriage, well, that had nothing to do with setting Tyrion up for a good future and everything to do with benefitting the Lannisters - aka Tywin - in the future. Tywin may do some things that benefit Tyrion incidentally, but overall he has let it be known that he sees Tyrion as worthless and not fit to be his heir.

Also I think Tywin was not as clever as everyone believes. He underestimated the Tyrells badly and made some bad errors of judgment.

On a sidenote: I think the Tyrells were also plotting to get Tyrion out of the picture anyway, or smuggle Sansa to Highgarden and get the marriage annulled via a Council of the Faith. That invitation by the Queen of Thorns before Joff's wedding was very suspicious.

[Alexia]

Oh and he made him Master of the Coin as well. I still think Tyrion had a hard time of it though. The Tysha thing screwed him up for life.

I don't disagree, but there's still some complexity that gets overlooked in the relationship between them. One of the more interesting ASOIAF relationships, IMO.

As for the Sansa marriage, well, that had nothing to do with setting Tyrion up for a good future and everything to do with benefitting the Lannisters - aka Tywin - in the future.

Tywin indicates that she's Tyrion's "reward" :stillsick: and it is a pretty good future that he could easily have reserved for another Lannister.

You don't send someone you see as "worthless" to manage your capital city and political affairs. He was embarrassed by Tyrion, and ashamed of him, but he recognized Tyrion's worth and rewards it.

[Silverin]

Blame the victim? This is absurd. When has Margaery Tyrell ever played the victim. She waltzed into Kings Landing, proceeded to court the smallfolk and try to manipulate Sansa. She probably knew Renly was gay, made a pact with him and Loras and was quite happy to be Queen to a man that could never love her. I don't know how Margaery Tyrell is a victim in any form or fashion. She seems to be quite happy with the Tyrell quest for dominance.

As Alexia already said it is not Margs choice who she wants to marry. it is her fathers. You blamed her for wanting to become a queen and that she marries for it to anybody. Which is not true, it is her father that wanted to make his daughter a queen at any cost, he even wanted to marry her off to Joff despite that most of them knew what a monster he is. And she didn't wanted to marry Joff, but she had no choice in that. So in that way she is a victim of her father's political ambitions. Olena already said that she didn't wanted to Marg to become a queen.

But she is a victim that can save herself (so far at least). She tries to bring out the best from these marriages in which she had no choice, and she is capable of saving herself as well (like the Joff incident), so she doesn't behave like a damsel in distress. So I don't think it is a negative trait at all.

And why is it a bad thing that they brought food for the starving people in KL. It means she is someone who understands what the smallfolk needs, and she gives them that what they need, that is already a huge development compared to a whole bunch of other contesters.

And beside why shouldn't she become a queen? The very fact that the Lannisters still have the Throne is because the Tyrell forces saved their skin. If it weren't for the Tyrells Cersei and the rest wouldn't have any power left at all and neither would have Tommen, nor Tywin or Tyrion (as small as he had...).

Yet everybody sais that OMG the Tyrells actually want something back in return what powerhungry shemers like they should have backed the Lannisters for totally free......

Of course she knew Renly was gay, so what? It was a political marriage not a love match. Beside even gay nobles and kings need a wife so they can have children and heir, not to mention since Renly was her brother's lover, and she loves him, and Loras loves her, she could be sure she would be treated fairly good, it is already more than most noble women could ask for. I don't understand why it makes her a bad person.

[1234567]

I don't disagree, but there's still some complexity that gets overlooked in the relationship between them. One of the more interesting ASOIAF relationships, IMO.

That is true and it was interesting that others recognize the similarities in their personalities. So I do hope Tyrion does not turn out to be a secret Targ as it would detract from that relationship greatly.

[brashcandy]

If Tywin shat all the gold of Casterly Rock into Tyrion's hands, nothing could make up for that Tysha incident. That he continues to demean and belittle his son, try him for murder, and then proceed to be the world's biggest hypocrite and ends up in bed with Shae, is just icing on top of a very nasty cake.

Tywin indicates that she's Tyrion's "reward" :stillsick: and it is a pretty good future that he could easily have reserved for another Lannister.

You don't send someone you see as "worthless" to manage your capital city and political affairs. He was embarrassed by Tyrion, and ashamed of him, but he recognized Tyrion's worth and rewards it.

The debate here is not whether Sansa was "rewarding" or not to Tyrion. The point is that it's another example of how Tywin uses Tyrion when it is convenient to him. He doesn't give a damn that Tyrion may have the world's unhappiest marriage with a bride that thinks he's repulsive. He only cares that the Lannisters are able to consolidate more power, and undermine the Tyrell plot.

Tywin doesn't really care about any of his children, but trying to claim that he does things to help Tyrion directly is really missing the point.

[Silverin]

I don't disagree, but there's still some complexity that gets overlooked in the relationship between them. One of the more interesting ASOIAF relationships, IMO.

Tywin indicates that she's Tyrion's "reward" :stillsick: and it is a pretty good future that he could easily have reserved for another Lannister.

You don't send someone you see as "worthless" to manage your capital city and political affairs. He was embarrassed by Tyrion, and ashamed of him, but he recognized Tyrion's worth and rewards it.

I agree. If Tywin really wouldn't have any recognition towards tyrion he would have done what tarly did. He would have given the choice for tyrion: the wall or an "accident"

I think Tywin believed that it was really tyrion who killed joff. I don't think he tried to medle in the trial to make sure tyrion doesn't get the Castery Rock. If that would be his aim, he could have done a Tarly ages ago.

[1234567]

He only cares that the Lannisters are able to consolidate more power, and undermine the Tyrell plot.

Also the Tyrell plot would spoil his own plot to marry Cersei to Willas. It was highly amusing that he didn't see they would not want Cersei.

[Alexia]

If Tywin shat all the gold of Casterly Rock into Tyrion's hands, nothing could make up for that Tysha incident.

Agreed.

try him for murder,

Wait, what? Tyrion looked guilty as sin. If I wasn't in his brain, I would have thought he was guilty. Kevan certainly believed that he was guilty. Varys and Pycelle provided some really damning testimony, to say nothing of all the rest (multiple death threats, et al).

and then proceed to be the world's biggest hypocrite and ends up in bed with Shae,

How was he being a hypocrite?

He doesn't give a damn that Tyrion may have the world's unhappiest marriage with a bride that thinks he's repulsive.

Tyrion consented to the marriage for the benefits therein with the understanding that the bride was not going to be happy about it.

Tywin doesn't really care about any of his children,

Agreed. He is certainly in the running for one of the worst fathers in the book.

[brashcandy]

I agree. If Tywin really wouldn't have any recognition towards tyrion he would have done what tarly did. He would have given the choice for tyrion: the wall or an "accident"

I think Tywin believed that it was really tyrion who killed joff. I don't think he tried to medle in the trial to make sure tyrion doesn't get the Castery Rock. If that would be his aim, he could have done a Tarly ages ago.

Tywin knows that Tyrion is intelligent, yes. He knows he can manage the affairs of KL better than Cersei can. But does that have any bearing on Tyrion's worth as a person? Not one bit. He cannot stand Tyrion, but he doesn't mind using him if he can do some good. There is a big difference between using someone (taking advantage of their talents) and actually respecting the person as being worthwhile or worthy of respect/love. This is why I maintain that he sees Tyrion as worthless.

If Randall Tarly had a kingdom to run he may have kept Sam, as it is, he needs warriors not cravens.

[the judge]

Victarion is one of my favorite characters, such a badass. Its awesome he thinks Old Wyk is a holy place and reaving other lands is honorable. Its also funny the distinguish he makes between a slave and a thrall.

[brashcandy]

This is pure speculation, but I've always felt that Tywin was the one who both coaxed the info out of Shae about her relationship with Tyrion, and also coached her on what to say. The whole "Giant of Lannister" business had Tywin all over it, maybe Cersei too. His ending up in bed with Shae was hypocritical because he was the first to castigate Tyrion on his love for prostitutes, not to mention his own treatment of his father's mistress.

Tyrion may have indeed looked guilty to Cersei, who was irrational and grief stricken (and who doesn't even think straight when she's not under these conditions), but to someone with a methodical mind like Tywin, who knew that Joffrey was a monster in the making, Tyrion's guilt would not have been so evident. I think Tywin saw it as a golden opportunity to be rid of his son, and he didn't care whether he was guilty or not, and either had a direct hand in locking him up, or an indirect one in refusing to consider other potential suspects.

[ARYa_Nym]

I like the Tyrells because they get their enemies unlike the Martells and the Starks.

Jon got Janos Slynt but I place him under Snow and Targaryen so he doesn't count as a point for the Starks.

[Tammy]

This is pure speculation, but I've always felt that Tywin was the one who both coaxed the info out of Shae about her relationship with Tyrion, and also coached her on what to say. The whole "Giant of Lannister" business had Tywin all over it, maybe Cersei too. His ending up in bed with Shae was hypocritical because he was the first to castigate Tyrion on his love for prostitutes, not to mention his own treatment of his father's mistress.

Tyrion may have indeed looked guilty to Cersei, who was irrational and grief stricken (and who doesn't even think straight when she's not under these conditions), but to someone with a methodical mind like Tywin, who knew that Joffrey was a monster in the making, Tyrion's guilt would not have been so evident. I think Tywin saw it as a golden opportunity to be rid of his son, and he didn't care whether he was guilty or not, and either had a direct hand in locking him up, or an indirect one in refusing to consider other potential suspects.

I just can't agree with this. Tywin was all about how his family was perceived to others, and while I don't think he cared one bit about Joff's death, and probably viewed it as a relief, I think he cared very much that his son was thought to do the deed. I think if he could have figured out a way to prove that it wasn't him, he would have done it, simply because of what it does to the family name. With Tyrion killing Joff, it looks like Tywin can't even manage to control his family and in the end makes him look bad.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Tywin knows that Tyrion is intelligent, yes. He knows he can manage the affairs of KL better than Cersei can. But does that have any bearing on Tyrion's worth as a person? Not one bit. He cannot stand Tyrion, but he doesn't mind using him if he can do some good. There is a big difference between using someone (taking advantage of their talents) and actually respecting the person as being worthwhile or worthy of respect/love. This is why I maintain that he sees Tyrion as worthless.

If Randall Tarly had a kingdom to run he may have kept Sam, as it is, he needs warriors not cravens.

Agreed. Even when Tywin "rewards" Tyrion, it is still to his advantage, and fits in well with his goal of expanding Lannister power.

[brashcandy]

But she is a victim that can save herself (so far at least). She tries to bring out the best from these marriages in which she had no choice, and she is capable of saving herself as well (like the Joff incident), so she doesn't behave like a damsel in distress. So I don't think it is a negative trait at all.

And why is it a bad thing that they brought food for the starving people in KL. It means she is someone who understands what the smallfolk needs, and she gives them that what they need, that is already a huge development compared to a whole bunch of other contesters.

I don't see Margaery as a victim. You may be right that Mace is the one organizing her marriages, but this is what fathers do for their daughters. If the daughter is unhappy then sure, she might be considered a victim, but even then it's more under extreme circumstances that I would stretch victimhood status to a girl, for example in the case of Lysa Tully.

IMO, Sansa was a victim in the marriage to Tyrion, which is something that we can all agree on. It didn't matter what she wanted, not to mention that she was a prisoner/pawn. Was Sansa a victim when she was arranged to marry Joff, or was she a victim when the Tyrells arranged for her to marry Willas? What about now that she's in the Vale, and LF is organizing the Harry marriage?