The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

[Ragnorak]

So if the Great Northern Conspiracy plans on drafting Jon what does this tell us about the letter? I always dismissed the theories about a non-Ramsay author because no matter what or how cool it seemed there was always one piece of information that made it virtually impossible for another author. But if they're all in on it that makes it much easier to assemble all that information.

Lord Manderly had brought musicians from White Harbor, but none were singers, so when Abel turned up at the gates with a lute and six women...

Abel being let in because Manderly didn't bring any singers convinces me Mance and Manderly are in on something together. Manderly knew damn well he was going to request The Rat King long before he left White Harbor. Maybe he planned to sing it himself but I doubt it.

They know what Jon did for Alys. He got elected LC which says everything a Northman needs to know about a leader. They know from rumor and Mance that the Wildlings will follow Jon. He led the defense of the Wall and he held his own with Stannis while earning his respect. But the Northerners also know Jon turned down Winterfell and Val from Stannis (which is probably one of the most compelling reasons they want him.) So that gives them a reason to want to lure Jon away from the Wall to Winterfell.

This assumes no one even knows about Robb's will. I can picture Manderly laying out his plan for Rickon and a debate starting about who would be Rickon's regent. Suggesting Jon would end all that infighting. If they have the will, Jon is just that much more compelling.

The more I look at the details the more I'm convinced that not only is every single Northern House is vehemently against Bolton, but they have a plan.

[Jayce]

A plan, that is so subtle and with little evidence, its damned infuriating. I whole heartedly believe they do have a plan and I can not wait to find out how it unfurls!

[Buried Treasure]

I wa s reading through the thread and there is a quote from a few pages (and a few months) back that I wanted to respond to, even though the conversation has moved on a bit since then

So if the Starks all die in the next book the North becomes a democracy and throws off the shackles of Lordship?

The average peasant doesnt give a shit who they are serving or dying for in battle. I'm sure the English felt exactly the same way about being ruled by a non-Englishman and then came the romans, the saxons, the normans and later the germans.

Its one thing fighting till the death for freedom but its batshit crazy to do the same because you want to be ruled by one specific family.

The Starks are not that different from any of the other ruling families in Westeros. The Westerlands and the Reach moved on after the Casterlys and the Gardeners. Even within the North when the Starks conquered it(like the Marsh kings in the Neck) didn't go on fighting afterwards and just accepted the new rule.

Readers perceive them differently because the majority of the story had been introduced through their eyes.

No, you pick a non-Stark, give him the Stark name and the new lord tries not to anger his supporters for a few generations until everybody has forgotten that these weren’t originally the Starks. That’s what Robb did if he named Jon and Catelyn suggested doing with Ned’s third cousins from the Vale. If not those then you are going so far back that the degree of relation is so minimal that you may as well pick any northern noblemen that all your allies can agree on. The problem is that all noble families are so very proud of their own family name and histories that they are not going to want sacrifice them to assume somebody else’s. That what cadet houses are for –their very identity is rooted in having once been Starks, even the Karstarks are always emphasising the point after 1000 years and becoming extremely powerful in their own right.

The importance of the Starks isn’t just loyalty to a family (it’s there but not the reason the Stark name is irreplaceable). It’s history and northern identity and the legitimacy that others derive from them. What always strikes me about the Starks is how many of the most powerful lords in the north have the Starks in their founding myths; Karstarks are a cadet branch, the Mormonts were given Bear Island by a Stark, the Manderly’s were re-established in the north thanks to a Stark. Only Umber and Bolton are undoubtedly more influential houses that don’t owe their founding to the Starks (arguably a few other non-Stark founded houses are up there or nearly so in importance). That is a huge power bloc for the Starks to have that will never have rivalled them for pre-eminence because challenging the Starks (or the idea of the Starks) is challenging their own legitimacy.

[kissdbyfire]

I've just found this thread and haven't read through it yet. But it made me remember something I felt while reading all the Winterfell chapters in ADwD: Roose and those who are really on his side (and I don't think we can be 100% sure of who they are) are literally trapped inside Winterfell. I'll go read the thread from the start now.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Hmmm, some very interesting thoughts here. The thought of a deeper conspiracy whether solely northern, or involving BWB is very cool.

In response to the guy so worried about a terribly horrible ending (including the end to all starks): GRRM was quoted as saying the ending would be "bitter-sweet" right? So there has to be some sweet part right? LOL.

Off topic prediction: Maybe bittersweet is everything happening as most ppl want it to (ie D&J fall in love) only to have Dany become Nissa Nissa to forge the new lightbringer.

[bemused]

I don't that it's the Stark name that means so much , by itself ...it's actually the Stark blood, some hereditary something.. Even if people have largely forgotten it and are simply loyal to the name , that enduring loyalty is based on something important . When Robb talks about naming Jon his heir..we know Jon has as much Stark blood as Robb, whichever theory about Jon's parentage you espouse. Some second or third or fourth cousin from the Vale ( or a Karstark ) might not have enough Stark blood to truly claim the name .. in the sense of bringing certain innate abilities to the magical conflict.

E.g. : There are lots of people with a minimal amount of Targaryen blood , but not enough to interest a dragon ( poor Quentyn , if it was him ). Tyrion suspects that Ben Plumm has a larger share than he knows or lets on , and correctly guesses the dragons liked Ben.

Blood is so important throughout the novels..seers or fortune tellers taste a person's blood to get their visions...Mel says King's blood is powerful. Luckily for Jon ,I don't think she fully understands what the belief is founded on...Or maybe she does , and that's why she doesn't bother about the Mance / Craster baby swap ... but I tend to think not , otherwise she wouldn't have wanted to burn Edric Storm.

If , as seems to be the direction GRRM is taking it , magical power it strongest in a few ancient bloodlines , then in the grand scheme of things ,Stannis is only slightly less up-jumped than Mance ( in fact , Mance's blood may be stronger , since we don't know his paternal line )

ETA: Oops, have to edit again..The thought occurs to me, in regard to people worrying about Jojen paste (yuck!)... it's the blood / sap of the tree that increases Bran's powers, just as Arya's blood let the dwarf woman see things about her ( also Cersei/ Maggy )..I think people get too wrought up over human sacrifice. Yes Bran can taste the blood of the sacrifice , but lots of other things feed the tree to a greater degree. So far as we know , the cotf didn't demand blood sacrifice before the first men came. I know other people must have said this, but i think we should remind ourselves now and then.It will be interesting to read the Arianne chapter from the WoW.

[Onion Ring Knight]

If , as seems to be the direction GRRM is taking it , magical power it strongest in a few ancient bloodlines , then in the grand scheme of things ,Stannis is only slightly less up-jumped than Mance ( in fact , Mance's blood may be stronger , since we don't know his paternal line )

Regarding Stannis, gotta remember that his (and Robert's and Renly's) grandmother was a Targaryen. And I think it's been rumored that the first Baratheon was a Targaryen bastard, in addition to having slain the Storm King and been rewarded with Storm's End as a result - that is certainly "the right of conquest" and as much or more the basis of royalty as anything.

[DurararaFTW]

If , as seems to be the direction GRRM is taking it , magical power it strongest in a few ancient bloodlines , then in the grand scheme of things ,Stannis is only slightly less up-jumped than Mance ( in fact , Mance's blood may be stronger , since we don't know his paternal line )

Stannis has descended from the Targaryans, the Stormkings and probably the Lannisters. I definitely think he's got Mance beat.

[bemused]

Yes, I think he's probably got Mance beat , I was playing devil's advocate a bit since we don't know about Mance. ;) The point is ,I suspect not all kings' blood is of equal potency, and I have my doubts that whatever power resides in it, can be useful in all purposes.

[Black Wolf Smith]

This is a great thread. I wonder why it got side tracked for a few months? I only got here cuz someone linked it from another.

IDK if buy Mance/ Manderly or that there is 1 GNC. There could be a few different one's that have some common ideas behind them (mostly to remove Boltons as warden, save Starks, restore WF) w/ other common goals (Nothern separation, punishing those behind RW,) But there is at least 1 going on.

There was much I did not put together with other smaller parts, but the big thing I did not see that was on my mind, Rob's plan was to have Jon traded for a 100 men! If they do recapture WF they would get at least some of Bolton, and Frey men( and anyone who were not in on it) to traded. Not any Frey or Bolton themselfs' but the little people that work for them.

Manderly could have sent Davos on a wild goose chace for Rickon, making a temp cause w/ Stannis, while hidding Rickon, until they get rid of Frey/Boltons w/ Stannis help. I mean that I could see everything eles he said as the truth, but Rickon and Osha going to Skaggos unless Wex followed them on a boat, how would he have known thats where he went and not another Island? I mean sure they could guess but still...

[Lau-la Mora]

Great thread!!

I would love it if the north is indeed involved in a great anti Bolton-Frey conspiracy, but maybe is too good to be true. But I do believe that something big is happening and I think that GRRM original title "A Time For Wolves" or whatever the name was, surely indicates that the Starks are going to have some revenge.

I really hope the Boltons and Freys get what they deserve!

[Last of the Darklyns]

I think that not all of the North, but some of the Northern houses, are involved in a conspiracy, and they expect the other houses to join once they start fighting the Boltons.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

If you're experiencing conspiration, might I suggest you take 2 tablespoons of mineral oil and then go to taco bell.

[Onion Ring Knight]

If you're experiencing conspiration, might I suggest you take 2 tablespoons of mineral oil and then go to taco bell.

But tell one or two others, who all promise to keep it a secret . . . ;-)

[vleeter]

If Ned's mother was from Skagos..then Lyanna would be Skagosi too. Fits in interestingly with R+L=J. I like it.

[Eyron]

If you're experiencing conspiration, might I suggest you take 2 tablespoons of mineral oil and then go to taco bell.

Har har, I know I know... I noticed it after I had already posted the thread and then I thought it was funny so no need to change it :D

In my language it is called konspiration and usually you just change the k for a c and all is well. Didn't bother to check the translation.

[Eyron]

I've just found this thread and haven't read through it yet. But it made me remember something I felt while reading all the Winterfell chapters in ADwD: Roose and those who are really on his side (and I don't think we can be 100% sure of who they are) are literally trapped inside Winterfell. I'll go read the thread from the start now.

When I had read ADwD I suffered from slight PTSS :D and had little to do except digging for clues to how the Starks would come back somehow and the Boltons would DIE. I mean I love Roose, but he is a cruel bastard and could use a small dose of death. Luckily, since I'm not that good at finding clues, a lot of others had done the same and voilá! A great conspiracy formed. I don't know if there was a theory about this before, but I could not find any threads about it when searching.

[Eyron]

Thank you. So wherever Maege is Lyra and Jory are. I wonder if they were with her from the beginning (and just weren't mentioned) or if they joined her after. If after then they obviously had contact and knew where to meet her.

I wonder where Maege is, it would make sense that Maege has not stayed in Greywater Watch all this time since Robb sent her to Howland with his will. Unless of course Howland has some way of communication that has helped the northerners send information or the like.

If she is still there one wonders what she is doing? She is obviously alive and had communications with Alysanne to make arrangement for Lyanna to stay back in Bear Island, Alysanne to go to Deepwood Motte and join Stannis and her other daughters to meet with herself somewhere if they were not already with her.

She is not a captive of Howland's since she is allowed communications. She knows who the heir of Winterfell is. When Robb died she must have done something with this information and contacted those she trust. I assume this could be her daughters, and a few more perhaps.

Depending on where Galbart Glover ended up and has been doing if he is alive, Maege may be the only one with a copy of Robb's will.

So if the Great Northern Conspiracy plans on drafting Jon what does this tell us about the letter? I always dismissed the theories about a non-Ramsay author because no matter what or how cool it seemed there was always one piece of information that made it virtually impossible for another author. But if they're all in on it that makes it much easier to assemble all that information.

Abel being let in because Manderly didn't bring any singers convinces me Mance and Manderly are in on something together. Manderly knew damn well he was going to request The Rat King long before he left White Harbor. Maybe he planned to sing it himself but I doubt it.

They know what Jon did for Alys. He got elected LC which says everything a Northman needs to know about a leader. They know from rumor and Mance that the Wildlings will follow Jon. He led the defense of the Wall and he held his own with Stannis while earning his respect. But the Northerners also know Jon turned down Winterfell and Val from Stannis (which is probably one of the most compelling reasons they want him.) So that gives them a reason to want to lure Jon away from the Wall to Winterfell.

This assumes no one even knows about Robb's will. I can picture Manderly laying out his plan for Rickon and a debate starting about who would be Rickon's regent. Suggesting Jon would end all that infighting. If they have the will, Jon is just that much more compelling.

The more I look at the details the more I'm convinced that not only is every single Northern House is vehemently against Bolton, but they have a plan.

This is an interesting theory. Any ideas on how Mance and Manderly kept in contact, and originally met or planned this out?

Do the northerners know that Jon turned down Winterfell? I don't remember anything that points to that, but I may have forgotten.

To be honest I thought that the fact that Manderly didn't have a singer with him was a ad hoc construct of GRRM's so that there would be a logical reason for Mance and his washerwomen to be let inside Winterfell.

[Buried Treasure]

I wonder where Maege is, it would make sense that Maege has not stayed in Greywater Watch all this time since Robb sent her to Howland with his will. Unless of course Howland has some way of communication that has helped the northerners send information or the like.

If she is still there one wonders what she is doing? She is obviously alive and had communications with Alysanne to make arrangement for Lyanna to stay back in Bear Island, Alysanne to go to Deepwood Motte and join Stannis and her other daughters to meet with herself somewhere if they were not already with her.

I've speculated a couple of times that Maege and Galbert may be in the south planning a breakout of prisoners. One of the factors limiting the actions of the northmen is that they are not really free to openly declare for Robb's heir whilst their own lords and family members are held captive. Manderly acted much more cautiously before he ransomed back Wylis, and most other northerners can't ransom their family because i) they are not rich enough ii) the southerners underestimate Manderly's hate more than the other lords hate.

Breaking out prisoners from castles is really hard, but Maege & Galbert could perhaps be waiting for the prisoners to be moved to Kings Landing. This would allow their co-conspirators back in the north to start acting openly.

She is not a captive of Howland's since she is allowed communications. She knows who the heir of Winterfell is. When Robb died she must have done something with this information and contacted those she trust. I assume this could be her daughters, and a few more perhaps.

Depending on where Galbart Glover ended up and has been doing if he is alive, Maege may be the only one with a copy of Robb's will.

I wouldn't think Galbert is any more likely to be dead than Maege is, IRRC the last mention of both is that they took ship from Seagard. Also, I think either having an actual copy of the will is unlikely - Robb specifically said he would be sending them with false documents against the possibility of capture. If anybody was sent off with a copy of the will it is more likely to have been Mallister, and if so I guess he would have destroyed it before surrendering his castle. The significance of Mormont and Glover was that in the aftermath of the red wedding they were the only ones in the know not dead, prisoner or besieged. By now they have had plenty of time to pass that information on so it no longer has to be either of them that personally takes word of Robb's wishes to the heir.

[bemused]

I've wondered about Robb's document , considering the false document ploy. No mention of how it was to be concealed , or where it was to be kept.

I wonder about the timeline re : Maege and Galbart's departure and the departure of Ned's bones . Could the document be concealed with the bones ? That would provide a very different (conspiratorial) reason for Lady Dustin to be watching for them and intercepting them .