Sandor Clegane V.15

[Candor]

And so it begins.

[Candor]

As the last thread ended, some of the topics being discussed included:

1. Lord Bronn Stokeworth:

So, lemme rephrase that.

Reality is nothing more than perception. Objectivity is at best shared perception. Therefore, Sansa did kiss Sandor as she believes she did.

Before anyone argues, do you really want to choose between Joffery and Littlefinger (and Tyrion?) as Sansa's best kiss?

2. Myself:

Oh my gosh guys, you know, I just realized, the Quiet Isle is close to Saltpans, but also to Maidenpool. Maidenpool is an important location in the song of Florian and Jonquil. In fact one of the few details we know of these song characters is that Florian first saw Jonquil in Maidenpool, where she was bathing with her sisters, IIRC.

Kind of makes a person go HMM, now, doesn't it? ;)

3. Sandor's effusive way of expressing anger compared and contrasted with those who have a colder, composed anger, such as Littlefinger or Varys.

4. Discussing where Sandor might have learned compassion in the form of the gift of mercy to the dying, such as he taught Arya in ASoS after the fight at the inn with his brother's men.

5. Whether lesser descriptions of Sandor's famous helm in later books corresponds with his own personality evolving.

6. Sandor, the accusations laid against him in the Saltpans massacre, and how he might be cleared.

[Villemo]

Oh my gosh guys, you know, I just realized, the Quiet Isle is close to Saltpans, but also to Maidenpool. Maidenpool is an important location in the song of Florian and Jonquil. In fact one of the few details we know of these song characters is that Florian first saw Jonquil in Maidenpool, where she was bathing with her sisters, IIRC.

BTW, I'm still interesting, why Sandor wanted from Sansa _this_ song. She knows hundreds (or thousands) another songs, but he insisted on this concrete one. Interesting.... :D

[only me]

BTW, I'm still interesting, why Sandor wanted from Sansa _this_ song. She knows hundreds (or thousands) another songs, but he insisted on this concrete one. Interesting.... :D

Sansa suggested it first, because it is one of her favorites (Florian and Jonquil is probably the most romantic song ever). He wants her to sing “this song”, because Sansa picked it. And although he made fun of it when Sansa suggested it (Florian and his cunt. Spare me.), he wishes that for once his life would be like “this song”.

[voodooqueen126]

BTW, I'm still interesting, why Sandor wanted from Sansa _this_ song. She knows hundreds (or thousands) another songs, but he insisted on this concrete one. Interesting.... :D

Because Florian and Jonquil is probably the equivalent of the great love song and perhaps one that Sandor responds to personally: he is ugly and Florian is homely...

[MaryaStone]

I can't believe :eek: how active the Sandor thread has been these last few days!

When I read these comments made by Hound's She-wolf and Rapsy:

'Oh that would so be a LoTR homage to Qyburn's no man can defeat him comment!'

(By Rapsy, on the possibility of a woman (maybe Brienne, defeating the giant)

'That would be an interesting take on that comment, I had always thought it would be Sansa, since she already has been prophesized to defeat the giant in a castle made of snow.'

(By Hound's She-wolf)

...it ocurred to me that , if Sansa has to defeat a giant, the giant doesn't necessarily have to be Frankengregor. Why not 'the giant of Lannister' ? (aka Tyrion)

I know it sounds crazy because I have the feeling that Tyrion is untouchable for Martin and he'll survive the series and be very important, he'll probably become a king or something like that in the end.

There's foreshadowing for his becoming a king. Do you remember this?:

“You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."

"Am I?" the dwarf replied, sardonic. "Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he's never been sure."

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune.

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.”

George RR Martin

'A Game of Thrones'

This happened when Jon met Tyrion for the first time at Winterfell.

It's also suggested that Tyrion might not be Tywin's son (and the mad king had been quite obsessed with Joana, Tyrion's mother). Could Tyrion be a Targaryen destined to become king?

Personally, I don't like this idea. I prefer his aunt Genna to be right (she said Tyrion was very much like Tywin and definitely his son). I also hate the idea of Tyrion and Sansa as a couple.

Sansa has always been the idealist and I like to think she will marry for love (as unusual as this would be in a context where marriages forged alliances and specially in the case of a high born lady such as Sansa).

I want her to get her true knight ( he doesn't have to be perfect, but he can be true) and Sador to have his song (does he mean a literal song when he keeps asking for it all the time or does it symbolize something?).

I'm as silly as that :blushing:, although I know it's very unlikely for them to get what they want.

Another silly thing by me. Don't you think the Hound could look very much like this guy? plus the disfigurement, of course:

http://images4.fanpo...087-469-643.jpg

[clover]

And he probably remembers everything that comes out of that pretty mouth of hers.

She offers the song at an earlier date and he holds her to it.

It is used as an excuse to talk further with her in the bedroom scene.

It think he would have held her to anything. Like if she offered him at any time before even something small that was hers, he would bring it up again.

Something that might seem small for others becomes rather pronounced for him because it would be from her to him.

[1234567]

@MaryaStone

Tyrion is certainly a possibility! Maester Aemon also calls him a giant. Also Littlefinger's House symbol is the Titan of Braavos which is a Stone Giant. Also Arya comments that the Titan could step over the walls of Winterfell, which is what LF does in the building Winterfell scene.

@Lady Candace

Are there any references to Florian and Jonquil in the Hedge Knight stories? Or any references to the deeds of Florian or Jonquil (other than him first seeing her in a pool)?

I wonder if there is any foreshadowing? They say Florian wears Motley Armour and has a special sword. If Sandor did leave the QI, he would only have the armour that has washed up there. So would that count as a motley assortment of armour?

EDIT: Also isn't the song of Florian and Jonquil a sad one? If so could that also be foreshadowing? Although I hope not!

[MaryaStone]

@MaryaStone

Tyrion is certainly a possibility! Maester Aemon also calls him a giant. Also Littlefinger's House symbol is the Titan of Braavos which is a Stone Giant. Also Arya comments that the Titan could step over the walls of Winterfell, which is what LF does in the building Winterfell scene.

Wow! Littlefinger. She will have to defeat him, you're right and the giant may very well refer to him.

@Lady Candace

Are there any references to Florian and Jonquil in the Hedge Knight stories? Or any references to the deeds of Florian or Jonquil (other than him first seeing her in a pool)?

I wonder if there is any foreshadowing? They say Florian wears Motley Armour and has a special sword. If Sandor did leave the QI, he would only have the armour that has washed up there. So would that count as a motley assortment of armour?

EDIT: Also isn't the song of Florian and Jonquil a sad one? If so could that also be foreshadowing? Although I hope not!

The idea of the motley armour is great, Rapsy. I love it and it sounds right to me.

As for the song being sad, most love songs and ballads are. There are more songs about star crossed lovers or love losses than about happy endings,even nowadays.

It may also be foreshadowing again :( but at least they would have their love story, if not their happy ending.

[brashcandy]

Are there any references to Florian and Jonquil in the Hedge Knight stories? Or any references to the deeds of Florian or Jonquil (other than him first seeing her in a pool)?

I wonder if there is any foreshadowing? They say Florian wears Motley Armour and has a special sword. If Sandor did leave the QI, he would only have the armour that has washed up there. So would that count as a motley assortment of armour?

EDIT: Also isn't the song of Florian and Jonquil a sad one? If so could that also be foreshadowing? Although I hope not!

Great catch on the motley armour, Rapsie, and I think his special sword will be Oathkeeper ;)

[1234567]

Great catch on the motley armour, Rapsie, and I think his special sword will be Oathkeeper ;)

And it has rubies too....like Rheagar's on the QI.

[brashcandy]

And it has rubies too....like Rheagar's on the QI.

Really?? Very cool :)

[1234567]

Really?? Very cool :)

I think so. I'll check but I thought the Lion pommel had ruby eyes!

[headtrip_honey]

I think so. I'll check but I thought the Lion pommel had ruby eyes!

Ruby or garnet, I can't remember which.

ETA: Rubies it is! I checked the text.

[brashcandy]

I think so. I'll check but I thought the Lion pommel had ruby eyes!

Ok. And also, since today seems to be one for crackpotting :) - so far the sword has passed into two hands, am I right? First Jaime, who then gave it to Brienne. If everything important has to happen in threes, then perhaps the next person (Sandor) will be the one to find Sansa and protect her.

[1234567]

Ok. And also, since today seems to be one for crackpotting :) - so far the sword has passed into two hands, am I right? First Jaime, who then gave it to Brienne. If everything important has to happen in threes, then perhaps the next person (Sandor) will be the one to find Sansa and protect her.

Nooooooooooo!!!! Ghastly thought. If the above is correct and the theory that Ice / Oathkeeper is going to become Lightbringer and it is tempered in the heart of the Lion (Jaime) and then reforged by Gendry and given to Sandor.....that would mean that she is Nissa Nissa! Nooooooo!!!!!

I really hope that is not what Thoros meant when he said that R'hllor wasn't done with him. :(

Unless we go with the other interpretation of AA thrusting his sword into Nissa Nissa.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Florian and Jonquil is a red herring. SHe was thinking about her escape with Dontos when it was brought up.

EDIT:

Nooooooooooo!!!! Ghastly thought. If the above is correct and the theory that Ice / Oathkeeper is going to become Lightbringer and it is tempered in the heart of the Lion (Jaime) and then reforged by Gendry and given to Sandor.....that would mean that she is Nissa Nissa! Nooooooo!!!!!

I really hope that is not what Thoros meant when he said that R'hllor wasn't done with him. :(

Unless we go with the other interpretation of AA thrusting his sword into Nissa Nissa.

This won't happen. I can't imagine the Brotherhood would get over Sandor kidnapping Arya.

I also think that Stoneheart is slowly corrupting the Brotherhood with her existence. If R'hllor is good, I do not think Gendry will be doing his work anytime soon.

[brashcandy]

Nooooooooooo!!!! Ghastly thought. If the above is correct and the theory that Ice / Oathkeeper is going to become Lightbringer and it is tempered in the heart of the Lion (Jaime) and then reforged by Gendry and given to Sandor.....that would mean that she is Nissa Nissa! Nooooooo!!!!!

I really hope that is not what Thoros meant when he said that R'hllor wasn't done with him. :(

Unless we go with the other interpretation of AA thrusting his sword into Nissa Nissa.

Hmmm, so many possibilities. But Dawn is a good contender for Lightbringer, so maybe it won't be Oathkeeper.

[littlespider]

If the Hound is AA, he's going to say fuck the prophecy and stab Mel with Lightbringer. This is known. His true Nissa Nissa is Stranger, and he wouldn't never hurt his hoss.

A couple things from the last thread, particularly anger.

We have never seen Littlefinger or Varys angry, ever. If someone can find a place in the text where it could be argued that they are actually angry, let me know. I'm certain that these are guys that play-act at anger in order to further their schemes. But Littlefinger isn't angry. Littlefinger is cold. (Note: this does not mean that LF has never experienced anger in the text, but to my mind we don't see him actually, genuinely manifest it. So we can infer that he might be angry, but he's never demonstrated anything through angry behavior or words.)

Sandor has both hot and cold anger. When he isn't in the process of exploding, he's simmering. It's constant. So, at the Tourney of the Hand, Sansa sees "drunken eyes, sullen with anger." That's cold anger. Later, on the rooftop, she realizes that it's not his scars or his twitching that's frightening about his face, it's his eyes, because they're so full of anger. Arya sees, after the RW, that he's constantly angry, and he'll slide into these "cold rages" where he chops wood until he's exhausted. So, his explosions are more visible and memorable, but I think he's really characterized by both kinds of anger.

That being said, his issues are easier to pinpoint than someone like Littlefinger's. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what primary emotions drive the Hound (hatred, anger, and, to the more perceptive like Sansa, fear). With Littlefinger, we just don't know. And when he does appear to demonstrate some kind of emotional affect, we don't know if it's genuine or not. I suspect that it never is; it's play-acting at emotions for the purpose of manipulating people. So, for me, this is why Littlefinger is more frightening. Also, I think on some level you could argue that Sandor knows that he's got to fix his shit. Littlefinger would just laugh at that suggestion, because the very things that make Littlefinger into a scary bastard are what have helped him get ahead in the world.

Now, as for the "I should have ... ripped her heart out." There's a mini gif or something floating around from the craptastic movie based on Frankenstein, featuring really probably the only exciting part of that movie. It's when the monster literally plunges his hand straight through a woman's sternum, rips her heart out, and then lifts it in the air still beating. (Everybody together now: KALIMAAA!!!) I think this is literally what he means; the reason I think this is that he's really summoning his impressive skills at rhetorical obscenity to get Arya to kill him. And he's looking back and saying essentially that it would be better to have utterly destroyed Sansa than to have left her to marry Tyrion.

At the same time, it is significant that the way he chooses to get this across is the image of the heart. He could have said "chopped her head off" or, I dunno "strangled her" or something. But he mentions destruction by way of a violent attack on her sexuality and on her heart. It's really probably one of the most horrific, disturbing reference to intimacy and the desire for intimacy that I've ever read.

[brashcandy]

At the same time, it is significant that the way he chooses to get this across is the image of the heart. He could have said "chopped her head off" or, I dunno "strangled her" or something. But he mentions destruction by way of a violent attack on her sexuality and on her heart. It's really probably one of the most horrific, disturbing reference to intimacy and the desire for intimacy that I've ever read.

I find it oddly compelling. He's so consumed by pain and suffering, anger and loss, that it's become translated into this extremely fucked up statement of simultaneous possession and destruction. It's very fitting of what we know of Sandor's character up to this point. He has no idea how to express what it is he feels for Sansa, and the misery that he is in imagining her misery in the marriage to Tyrion. I don't know if he deliberately said it to goad Arya into killing him, or at least that might only be part of it. The other part came from a deeply personal hell of desire and regret that was definitely not meant for a young girl's ears.