Was Ned really that stupid?

[Gala]

Well, except, Brienne, Jon, Robb, Davos, Beric Dondarrion, Ned Dayne, sometimes Sansa, Arya and Bran rarely, maybe Bronze Yohn, the other Royces, Maester Aemon, Edmure, Samwell if he loses the self-issues, maybe Jeor Mormont.

Yeap, ok, you got me! i also like these characters (completely forgot about Dondarrion). But as it was mentioned above, Ned is something special. for me :)

do you mean Ned Dayne, the boy?

[Ygrain]

all your responses dont highlight any strength to nullify the question/the topic in this thread but still just shows the ineptess of the guy as person given an opportunity with the post to help the king rule

Well, you were the one who diverted from the topic of intelligence towards the matter of honour.

As for the ineptness… So, this guy, who has no connections to the South, is called to do a job he hasn’t done before. He inherits the apparatus of his predecessor, who was unable to control the king’s spending during the previous fourteen years. He has to cooperate with not particularly cooperative council and a highly uncooperative king, and is apparently supposed to take out a magic wand and make all the problems go away. – Please, be at least fair. Even Tyrion, who is probably the brightest brain around except LF, was unable to handle the crown debt.

......westeros is not a stark family household where ned barks orders and family members just follow because it's the law but is a kingdom with many aspects that affect it to be governed and for a king to rule for long he has to carefully assess the situations to strengthen his rule or the threats against his rule to stay on top .....noble families have ambitions to rule and to be at the top and those who think that they are entitled and nobody would oppose them rarely get to be at the top for long...

With the rigid feudal structure, actually, more than just a couple noble families have remained at the top for quite some time.

If you have gained an impression that all Ned ever did in the North was sit on his ass and command those around, I’m afraid you live in a misconception. He apparently had to handle various disputes and held court hearings, among other things, and he handled his post of Lord Protector of North in such a way that his countrymen basically adored the very ground he walked. His sons were able to lead and inspire loyalty while still very young, not to mention their tactical skills – but yeah, Ned was totally stupid, I see it. How come no-one ever noticed this up there, and why did Old Bear nearly pee his pants in joy that the Night Watch might get Ned?

my points provided a way a baratheon dynasty(to stay at the top would have been further secured with the possibilty of moving the leadership to the subsequent baratheon generations without putting it at risk(giving the challengers to it's rule a shot).....while you have yet to support how the situation would have been successful for ned with his actions in the matter of succession of robert which was his concern

In your let’s-talk-it-over plan, you have failed to address on important point: the public explanation why Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen fall out of the succession line. The laws of succession are pretty clear, every noble knows them, and they are a given. There is absolutely no reason why the king should disinherit the children… unless he knows they are not his. The queen cheating on the king is a treason, punishable by death. You guess what would have to follow.

rheagar's children were killed because they had nobody to protect them...cersei+the children had lannister guards with the them + plus she could depended on her father to raise an army if there was a need so robert's fury is robert's fury and ned chose to side with his friend and cersei chose her kids...kings rule in westeros by making their subjects to bend the knee and serve the king according to his will..well ned seemed to forget that

The father would have to be there in the first place. Cersei had her red cloaks, but the golden cloaks were not bought yet at that time, Renly had his men… if they swooped down on Cersei while she suspected nothing, it would go exactly the way it did with Ned’s men: a bloodbath. And let us not forget the KG, who are a rather unprincipled lot., except for Barristan – who would obey every order from Robert.

Ned did NOT chose to side with his friend – he sided with the king towards whom he had a duty. He did bend that principle, in exactly the same way Davos did when he smuggled away Edric Storm.

I think Ned was most afraid that Robert would go on a killing spree in a fit of rage and that he might even murder Cersei himself, which would definitely result in a civil war (with a trial, the chance was there, as well, though more limited), and this is what he was trying to prevent.

ned's handling of the whole situation was stupid(tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes/lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind) in that regard and honor is defined as(regarded with great respect in honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions) but ned actions were self serving honor(considering and supporting the baratheon side intrests over the lannisters intrests)

Ned. Had. Absolutely. No. Duty. Towards. The. Lannisters. A Lord’s sole duty is to his king, and the king was betrayed by those very Lannisters – the guys who have children murdered, bonk their sisters and poison witnesses. And YET, Ned takes a great risk and makes a personal sacrifice to save LANNISTER children. Note please that he himself is aware that the course is risky and may not be wise, but it still has to be done, to save the children and to prevent another civil war (while his evaluation of the situation may not be correct, do not pin down on him that he does not care).

Yes, Davos too. I like him very much too, but Ned is special, I agree.

Me too, in both points.

Ned chose the right side from different perspectives: justice/honesty - to claim the throne for a rightful heir; honor - to fulfill his duty as a Hand according to the laws; honor - to defend innocent the way he thought is right and necessary; loyalty - to the King as his ruler and a friend (Robert did came for help and Ned tried to help). All that he chose despise the interest of his own family, which is also quite admirable, you know (though, I would prefer him to think of his daughters first). Of course, Cersei chose her children, which is also logical, I would do that too. But in fact none of any other character is the same as Ned. It doesn't make him stupid, though. Naive, yes, 100%, but not stupid.

If you think that he is inflexible and stupid to think that everyone is like him, well that's ridiculous, because almost every personage in this books makes the same mistake all the time, that is just a part of human nature - to be mistaken (truth to be told, people do the same in real life everyday, so why not the character in the book). Would you call all of them stupid? I hardly think so, because it would be every character in the book, actually.

:bowdown:

Wouldn't have said it better.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, except, Brienne, Jon, Robb, Davos, Beric Dondarrion, Ned Dayne, sometimes Sansa, Arya and Bran rarely, maybe Bronze Yohn, the other Royces, Maester Aemon, Edmure, Samwell if he loses the self-issues, maybe Jeor Mormont.

Yeap, ok, you got me! i also like these characters (completely forgot about Dondarrion). But as it was mentioned above, Ned is something special. for me :)

do you mean Ned Dayne, the boy?

Jepp, it's the future Lord of Starfall, squire of the Lightning Lord and current leader of the other half of the BWB.

The interesting parts about these guys: They are all related in one way or another to Ned, even if it takes three links in between. They are his children, his younger in-law, the guy he tasked with something he couldn't do himself, the guy named for him, the guy most influenced by his "son", his friends from the Vale, his bannermen, a father figure for his "son", the second guy somebody who values his "son" extremely high trusts entirely.

[ed Lannister]

Well, you were the one who diverted from the topic of intelligence towards the matter of honour. As for the ineptness… So, this guy, who has no connections to the South, is called to do a job he hasn’t done before. He inherits the apparatus of his predecessor, who was unable to control the king’s spending during the previous fourteen years. He has to cooperate with not particularly cooperative council and a highly uncooperative king, and is apparently supposed to take out a magic wand and make all the problems go away. – Please, be at least fair. Even Tyrion, who is probably the brightest brain around except LF, was unable to handle the crown debt. With the rigid feudal structure, actually, more than just a couple noble families have remained at the top for quite some time. If you have gained an impression that all Ned ever did in the North was sit on his ass and command those around, I’m afraid you live in a misconception. He apparently had to handle various disputes and held court hearings, among other things, and he handled his post of Lord Protector of North in such a way that his countrymen basically adored the very ground he walked. His sons were able to lead and inspire loyalty while still very young, not to mention their tactical skills – but yeah, Ned was totally stupid, I see it. How come no-one ever noticed this up there, and why did Old Bear nearly pee his pants in joy that the Night Watch might get Ned? In your let’s-talk-it-over plan, you have failed to address on important point: the public explanation why Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen fall out of the succession line. The laws of succession are pretty clear, every noble knows them, and they are a given. There is absolutely no reason why the king should disinherit the children… unless he knows they are not his. The queen cheating on the king is a treason, punishable by death. You guess what would have to follow. The father would have to be there in the first place. Cersei had her red cloaks, but the golden cloaks were not bought yet at that time, Renly had his men… if they swooped down on Cersei while she suspected nothing, it would go exactly the way it did with Ned’s men: a bloodbath. And let us not forget the KG, who are a rather unprincipled lot., except for Barristan – who would obey every order from Robert. Ned did NOT chose to side with his friend – he sided with the king towards whom he had a duty. He did bend that principle, in exactly the same way Davos did when he smuggled away Edric Storm. I think Ned was most afraid that Robert would go on a killing spree in a fit of rage and that he might even murder Cersei himself, which would definitely result in a civil war (with a trial, the chance was there, as well, though more limited), and this is what he was trying to prevent. Ned. Had. Absolutely. No. Duty. Towards. The. Lannisters. A Lord’s sole duty is to his king, and the king was betrayed by those very Lannisters – the guys who have children murdered, bonk their sisters and poison witnesses. And YET, Ned takes a great risk and makes a personal sacrifice to save LANNISTER children. Note please that he himself is aware that the course is risky and may not be wise, but it still has to be done, to save the children and to prevent another civil war (while his evaluation of the situation may not be correct, do not pin down on him that he does not care). Me too, in both points. :bowdown: Wouldn't have said it better.

Well, you were the one who diverted from the topic of intelligence towards the matter of honour. As for the ineptness… So, this guy, who has no connections to the South, is called to do a job he hasn’t done before. He inherits the apparatus of his predecessor, who was unable to control the king’s spending during the previous fourteen years. He has to cooperate with not particularly cooperative council and a highly uncooperative king, and is apparently supposed to take out a magic wand and make all the problems go away. – Please, be at least fair. Even Tyrion, who is probably the brightest brain around except LF, was unable to handle the crown debt. With the rigid feudal structure, actually, more than just a couple noble families have remained at the top for quite some time. If you have gained an impression that all Ned ever did in the North was sit on his ass and command those around, I’m afraid you live in a misconception. He apparently had to handle various disputes and held court hearings, among other things, and he handled his post of Lord Protector of North in such a way that his countrymen basically adored the very ground he walked. His sons were able to lead and inspire loyalty while still very young, not to mention their tactical skills – but yeah, Ned was totally stupid, I see it. How come no-one ever noticed this up there, and why did Old Bear nearly pee his pants in joy that the Night Watch might get Ned? In your let’s-talk-it-over plan, you have failed to address on important point: the public explanation why Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen fall out of the succession line. The laws of succession are pretty clear, every noble knows them, and they are a given. There is absolutely no reason why the king should disinherit the children… unless he knows they are not his. The queen cheating on the king is a treason, punishable by death. You guess what would have to follow. The father would have to be there in the first place. Cersei had her red cloaks, but the golden cloaks were not bought yet at that time, Renly had his men… if they swooped down on Cersei while she suspected nothing, it would go exactly the way it did with Ned’s men: a bloodbath. And let us not forget the KG, who are a rather unprincipled lot., except for Barristan – who would obey every order from Robert. Ned did NOT chose to side with his friend – he sided with the king towards whom he had a duty. He did bend that principle, in exactly the same way Davos did when he smuggled away Edric Storm. I think Ned was most afraid that Robert would go on a killing spree in a fit of rage and that he might even murder Cersei himself, which would definitely result in a civil war (with a trial, the chance was there, as well, though more limited), and this is what he was trying to prevent. Ned. Had. Absolutely. No. Duty. Towards. The. Lannisters. A Lord’s sole duty is to his king, and the king was betrayed by those very Lannisters – the guys who have children murdered, bonk their sisters and poison witnesses. And YET, Ned takes a great risk and makes a personal sacrifice to save LANNISTER children. Note please that he himself is aware that the course is risky and may not be wise, but it still has to be done, to save the children and to prevent another civil war (while his evaluation of the situation may not be correct, do not pin down on him that he does not care). Me too, in both points. :bowdown: Wouldn't have said it better.

it's quite refreshing to get to see POV's about a character who serves the king when it suits his needs and takes actions that suits his intrests and not considering other people's intrests and whatever perils falls on the people who dont share his POV and is praised as much...

a character who serves a king openly in public whoring and fathering bastards all over the realm..has lead the kingdom to be in debt overlooks his faults and the reason( coz he is the rightful king) while at the same time wolud rise up against another king in rebellion and overthrow him(coz he was not the rightful king) and is admired that he took a risk to save innocent children(what risk did he take that put him any danger with robert rather than risk the innocent children lives,did he offer sanctuary to the kids,money for expenses,guards to protect them) but rather cared nothing but for the queen and her kids just to be gone..while is compared to davos who personally took it as his responsibility to ensure edric's (saftey, and sanctuary)

yes a king who accepted the lannisters who did the dirty jobs for his rightful king and is let of the hook that he had no duty to the lannisters(basically there r no longer of any use and should be discarded)

he governed the north so well that his country men adored the very ground he walked but as soon as his demise came his descendants were over throne and the adoration ended once the york of his governship came to a halt and is given a pass that he governed the north well but can fail to handle the handship post when the boundary of his governship expands

the simple fact is that there are no rightful kings or heirs in westeros all of the kings rule by force and subjugate it's people....ned chose to side with his friend to be king who ruled by force and would not serve under those he resented(he made his moves to secure the throne to his friend and his duty and honor should be assessed to the baratheons.......robert was no rightful king to the lannisters,tyrells,greyjoys,martells,tullys who can be kings too if they are not subjugated....if ned had accepted robert as his rightful king he should not expect the others to do so....

At no point did i ever raise or say ned sat on his laurels as the lord protector of the north but pointed how his tenure as hand and his actions were a liability to robert .....you have to appease also the other lord protectors,(whether you resent them or dont like them) in the realm and not think it's your way/orders is the only way to achieve a goal

in regards to ned's plan working out Renly wanted to be king whether the queens bastards were there or not(he never even knew about them being bastards until much later but was willing to take them out of the succession whether they were roberts or not) ..ned wanted stannis to be king....renly would never give in his quest for the throne nor would stannis let renly have it... every course of action that he took if you insist on that would eventually lead to civil war... while my suggestion would present a way though difficult....had the possibility to prevent that and would even maintain the alliance that kept the baratheons in power....

the notion that lannisters betrayed the king also applys to the king betraying the lannisters...tywin did not agree to marry his daughter to man who beats her,rapes her, cheats on her and fathers bastards all over and should just acccept and roll with it coz it's the king and his daughter should accept her fate...she's just entitled to show the same courtesy shown to her by the king and ned should have never held anything against her..

yes the lannisters had a brother who bonks his sister,murdered children but they were the tipping ace that cemented roberts power in westeros that even his foster father(jon arryn)+his rightful king (robert) agreed to join in an alliance politically and also in marriage and their intrests should have mattered to the hand of the king..tywin even risked all for his grandson who unknown to him was not a baratheon to remain and be king while renly would have deposed robert's kids whether they were bastards or not.....

[Dark Rider]

War with the entire Lannister and Ned wins, because the Lannisters couldn't stand against the whole Kingdom and the other Lords would be all too happy to conquer them and divide up their lands given the opportunity.

If Cersei and Jamie go into Exile Ned wins, because Tywin is an old man and Tyrion sure wouldn't take the Rock after he's dead.

By telling Cersei he thinks she'll take one of those two options and he doesn't have to worry about his conscious regardless.

The only mistake Ned makes is in trusting Little Finger. The only reason he trusted Little Finger was because his wife told him he could. However, Ned should have known that his wife hadn't known Little Finger for a very long time and his wife has never actually trusted Little Finger with anything in the past worthy of him winning such confidence. Ned though just trusts in his wife's good judgment and pays for it with his life. Was that stupid? Well, love can blind us and Ned really loved his wife.

[Dark Rider]

Ned was a good arbitrator and military leader, but he lacked any diplomacy and economic skill. While he ran the North what infrastructure had Ned put in place to increase the flow of commerce and improve the standard of living for his people? Look at the map of the north and you'll see they only have the King's Road. Why didn't Ned do any roadbuilding to improve the flow of commerce and travel throughout the north? White Harbor is the only decent port in the North and it's only that way thanks to Lord Manderly who's family is from the south.

Ned has a son Rob who is ready to start courting and he apparently hasn't set about to making any match with another strong house to improve the north's standing. Ned really doesn't do much for the people of the North other than serve as an enforcer of law and order. He maintains the Status Quo basically and that's it. I don't see a lot that has been done to the North to make it stronger. By contrast the South is a lot more wealthy and the people seem to enjoy a higher standard of living.

[jon rr stark]

I was just thinking today.... Ned told Cersei because he wanted to give her and her kids a chance to escape Robert's wrath. Did Ned really think Robert was going to allow them to survive even if they did get away? He would have called all his banners and leveled Casterly Rock. Am I missing something or was Ned really that naive?

Ned would have made Robert do the right thing in the end. If it wasn't for Roberts unfortunate death, Ned would have sorted out KL. Robert would have just done more whoring and hunting. Whatever way it would go it makes no difference as Varys would be doing whatever he has being doing regardless.

[jon rr stark]

I was just thinking today.... Ned told Cersei because he wanted to give her and her kids a chance to escape Robert's wrath. Did Ned really think Robert was going to allow them to survive even if they did get away? He would have called all his banners and leveled Casterly Rock. Am I missing something or was Ned really that naive?

Ned would have made Robert do the right thing in the end. If it wasn't for Roberts unfortunate death, Ned would have sorted out KL. Robert would have just done more whoring and hunting. Whatever way it would go it makes no difference as Varys would be doing whatever he has being doing regardless.

[Dark Rider]

How exactly does a Kingdom get six million gold coins in debt? Robert hadn't undertaken any great military campaign since the Greyjoy rebellion and it doesn't appear that he was building any major infrastructure or building ships requiring massive capital. Was he not collected taxes from the Lords of the realm? Did Robert slash taxes too low? Was Westerosi commerce suffering so that it was impossible to tax? Was LF purposely trying to bankrupt the realm or embezzling?

[Summerqueen]

How exactly does a Kingdom get six million gold coins in debt? Robert hadn't undertaken any great military campaign since the Greyjoy rebellion and it doesn't appear that he was building any major infrastructure or building ships requiring massive capital. Was he not collected taxes from the Lords of the realm? Did Robert slash taxes too low? Was Westerosi commerce suffering so that it was impossible to tax? Was LF purposely trying to bankrupt the realm or embezzling?

It really wouldn't surprise me at all if LF was encouraging the crown to get deeply in debt while simultaneously emptying the Lannister coffers. Redistributing the wealth, even only temporarily, while undermining the crown would be worthy goal. Tywin is used to throwing money at his problems, but his vaults aren't bottomless. Impoverishing the Lannisters, even if temporarily, prevents them from making the long play in any altercation. It would be a spur to keep the war engine moving before the money runs out. A years-long siege becomes hard to pay for, for example. Tywin would have to at least accept support from people like the Freys to accomplish long term goals. At least, that's what LF could have been planning or hoping would happen. Intriguing to speculate what will happen now that LF is gaining his own power. Certainly, a Lannister siege of the Eyrie now seems beyond foolhardy, if it were to come to that.

[Ygrain]

it's quite refreshing to get to see POV's about a character who serves the king when it suits his needs and takes actions that suits his intrests and not considering other people's intrests and whatever perils falls on the people who dont share his POV and is praised as much...

Oh. So, technically, I shouldn’t be reporting a robber, because it is unfair of me to expect that he shares my codes of behaviour and because his family would suffer?

a character who serves a king openly in public whoring and fathering bastards all over the realm..has lead the kingdom to be in debt overlooks his faults and the reason( coz he is the rightful king) while at the same time wolud rise up against another king in rebellion and overthrow him(coz he was not the rightful king)

You will forgive me that I won’t bother looking for the English equivalent of the idiom “Who wants to beat a dog, always finds a handy stick”.

and is admired that he took a risk to save innocent children(what risk did he take that put him any danger with robert rather than risk the innocent children lives,did he offer sanctuary to the kids,money for expenses,guards to protect them) but rather cared nothing but for the queen and her kids just to be gone..while is compared to davos who personally took it as his responsibility to ensure edric's (saftey, and sanctuary)

I never noticed that Lannisters lacked the resources to take care of their own.

What risk? The two situations are similar because both men choose their inner moral compas over their duty. And while Davos as commonborn has lesser protection, Ned lets go not only the innocents but a capital offender, as well, by which act he may be labelled himself a traitor and criminal. And even though Robert is his friend, the risk is still there, because Robert is in no way a paragon of virtues.

yes a king who accepted the lannisters who did the dirty jobs for his rightful king and is let of the hook that he had no duty to the lannisters(basically there r no longer of any use and should be discarded)

Switching the topic – I was talking about Ned having no duty towards Lannisters, not Robert. These are merely your fabrications.

he governed the north so well that his country men adored the very ground he walked but as soon as his demise came his descendants were over throne and the adoration ended once the york of his governship came to a halt and is given a pass that he governed the north well but can fail to handle the handship post when the boundary of his governship expands

You might want to re-read some chapters who actually did the overthrowing and how the rest of the vassals responded. Last time we heard, they were rather indignant that Ned’s supposed daughter is being mistreated – Ned’s is the essential part here, not daughter.

As for Ned’s handling the Handship, see my previous posts. I just can’t help wondering how you would cope if you moved from regional government to the state level, didn’t receive any support and stayed there only for a limited period, and that rather short, compared to your predecessors who had years to settle in the job (not counting here the quickly changing guys of the last years of Aerys’ rule)

the simple fact is that there are no rightful kings or heirs in westeros all of the kings rule by force and subjugate it's people....ned chose to side with his friend to be king who ruled by force and would not serve under those he resented(he made his moves to secure the throne to his friend and his duty and honor should be assessed to the baratheons.......robert was no rightful king to the lannisters,tyrells,greyjoys,martells,tullys who can be kings too if they are not subjugated....if ned had accepted robert as his rightful king he should not expect the others to do so....

That’s pretty much stretching the facts so that you could find something to back your argument, and rather out of touch with the Westerosi reality. You might want to notice that those claiming kingship during the war were only those who had either blood ties to the current dynasty (Renly, Stannis), or whose lineage were kings historically (Starks, Greyjoys).

At no point did i ever raise or say ned sat on his laurels as the lord protector of the north but pointed how his tenure as hand and his actions were a liability to robert .....you have to appease also the other lord protectors,(whether you resent them or dont like them) in the realm and not think it's your way/orders is the only way to achieve a goal

Carrying out justice is sort of above the need to appease someone powerful.

in regards to ned's plan working out Renly wanted to be king whether the queens bastards were there or not(he never even knew about them being bastards until much later but was willing to take them out of the succession whether they were roberts or not) ..ned wanted stannis to be king....renly would never give in his quest for the throne nor would stannis let renly have it... every course of action that he took if you insist on that would eventually lead to civil war... while my suggestion would present a way though difficult....had the possibility to prevent that and would even maintain the alliance that kept the baratheons in power....

And when did Renly start plotting against Robert? He was plotting against the Lannisters and wanted to replace Cersei with Margaery; he usurped on Stannis, not on Robert. If you have textual evidence that Renly sought to replace Robert, quote it. So far, you’re using events that happened after Robert’ death, to condemn Ned’s actions while Robert still lived. I’m sure that had Ned access to such nice hindsight, he would have acted differently.

Ned didn’t want Stannis to be king, he supported Stannis’ legal claim, because since Robert died childless, Stannis was his rightful heir.

the notion that lannisters betrayed the king also applys to the king betraying the lannisters...tywin did not agree to marry his daughter to man who beats her,rapes her, cheats on her and fathers bastards all over and should just acccept and roll with it coz it's the king and his daughter should accept her fate...she's just entitled to show the same courtesy shown to her by the king and ned should have never held anything against her..

Go challenge the whole Westerosi society then, since it allowed the lords to tumble with whomever, whenever and wherever they wanted, while the ladies were required to be chaste.

And why do you think that Ned gave Cersei that chance? Because he clearly disapproved how Robert abused her (that much as he knew, since Cersei apparently never told anyone about the marital rapes and beatings). Again, the omniscient hindsight. – Besides, there is still the point of royal succession – while Robert’s bastards were just bastards, Cersei’s would usurp the throne.

yes the lannisters had a brother who bonks his sister,murdered children but they were the tipping ace that cemented roberts power in westeros that even his foster father(jon arryn)+his rightful king (robert) agreed to join in an alliance politically and also in marriage and their intrests should have mattered to the hand of the king..tywin even risked all for his grandson who unknown to him was not a baratheon to remain and be king while renly would have deposed robert's kids whether they were bastards or not.....

The same as above: should you let a criminal go unpunished because you might piss off his mighty relatives?

Tywin risked… Seriously, you think that any Westerosi lord would abandon his grandson when the said grandson gave him such a boost to power? The Lannisters got their claws on the throne that Tywin had wanted for quite some time (remember that he offered Cersei for Rhaegar?), do you honestly think he would just let go and not do everything he could to support his gold egg laying goose?

[Gala]

I just don't know what I can add to Ygrain's post, which is self-explanatory…Agree 200%

But thank you, ed Lannister, for entertaining post. Especially I liked the part where Ned should have offered guards or money to Lannisters to show that he really cared; to Lannisters, who have no lack of both. ;) That was nice. ;)

It is also very "funny" that 'bad economist and politician, stupid and self-serving' Lord Eddard Stark tried to save/spare lion children, when Lannisters have already badly harmed his own (Bran) and later they didn't bother to be nice with Sansa (though, of course, he wouldn't know that and even couldn't imagine such thing happen, because he wouldn't do those things himself), I suspect that if Arya wasn't able to run away - she would be punished all the time and Cersei wouldn't forget Nymaria/Joffrey's defeat so easily.

I also thought that you just don't like Ned, therefore, as Ygrain said, "Who wants to beat a dog, always finds a handy stick". First you argued that there is no honor in Ned's actions, then that Queen adultery is not a treason and incest is not considered bad in Westeros, now that it doesn't' matter whether Robert was rightful King or not, that Ned should think about real power - people. That's an impression I've got. But anyway that is you opinion, I respect that, even if I do not agree…absolutely.

I also would like to say something about "dirty work" here: yep, Lannisters do all dirty work, but IIRC those dirty work wasn't on Robert's orders, it was, so to say, "personal initiative". Although, I don't justify Robert's easiness with that.

[Winter's Knight]

Ned's stupidity irks me to no end.

He feels KL is not safe for his daughters and decides to send them away-good.

Poole tells him he's found a place for his daughters on a boat that sails in three days.-still good.

That very day he bleats to Cersei-why not wait until his daughters are on the boat? He's seen what vengence the Lannisters took for kidnapping Tyrion, it is the reason he decided to send the girls away so why not wait three days before telling Cersei?

[David Selig]

Because then Robert would be back from the hunt and it would be much harder for Cersei to leave for exile with the kids.

What I don't understand is why he simply didn't pay the captain of the ship more to leave the same day he decided to send Sansa and Arya away or at least the next one. Surely Ned could afford it, and any sensible captain would want to do a favour to the hand, so he was unlikely to refuse.

[Ygrain]

Ned was a good arbitrator and military leader, but he lacked any diplomacy and economic skill. While he ran the North what infrastructure had Ned put in place to increase the flow of commerce and improve the standard of living for his people? Look at the map of the north and you'll see they only have the King's Road. Why didn't Ned do any roadbuilding to improve the flow of commerce and travel throughout the north? White Harbor is the only decent port in the North and it's only that way thanks to Lord Manderly who's family is from the south.

Ned has a son Rob who is ready to start courting and he apparently hasn't set about to making any match with another strong house to improve the north's standing. Ned really doesn't do much for the people of the North other than serve as an enforcer of law and order. He maintains the Status Quo basically and that's it. I don't see a lot that has been done to the North to make it stronger. By contrast the South is a lot more wealthy and the people seem to enjoy a higher standard of living.

First and foremost, I don't think we have ever been given any insight into the post of Lord Protector, other than that he is the highest liege of a given region, answerable only to the king. The land is divided among his vassals, to be taken care of how they deem fit, as long as they do it reasonably. The only decision regarding general economics I can recall is that instruction how big portion of harvest is to be stored for the winter. It is not possible to determine Ned's efficiency as an economist of the north on insufficient data, and not knowing what kind of decisions he was entitled to make. We have only the opinion of his contemporaries that he did his job well, whatever his duties were, and I suppose the Northerners knew what they needed from their Lord better than we do.

Here I'd also like to point out that the Westerosi society is very rigid and has been going its way for centuries. The North has probably established its trade routes long ago, and I can't see why of all the generations of Starks before him, Ned should be specifically the one to blame for not developing commerce or whatever. Besides, there is also the problem of climate, terrain /vegetation zones and resources, which all affect the North's economic power. I think that it can be generally concluded that in societies depending primarily on agriculture, the parts with harsher climate will be poorer.

While most noble families seem to negotiate betrothals of their children at quite an early age, Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn when he was twenty, and when Ned later took over the bond, at the age of nineteen, he was apparently free to do so for lack of any previous contract, so it may well be a Stark tradition to arrange marriages later in life, when they are fully grown up.

- Now, what was Ned's sin, once more?

[Gala]

Ned was a good arbitrator and military leader, but he lacked any diplomacy and economic skill. While he ran the North what infrastructure had Ned put in place to increase the flow of commerce and improve the standard of living for his people? Look at the map of the north and you'll see they only have the King's Road. Why didn't Ned do any roadbuilding to improve the flow of commerce and travel throughout the north? White Harbor is the only decent port in the North and it's only that way thanks to Lord Manderly who's family is from the south.

Ned has a son Rob who is ready to start courting and he apparently hasn't set about to making any match with another strong house to improve the north's standing. Ned really doesn't do much for the people of the North other than serve as an enforcer of law and order. He maintains the Status Quo basically and that's it. I don't see a lot that has been done to the North to make it stronger. By contrast the South is a lot more wealthy and the people seem to enjoy a higher standard of living.

It is very hard to blame the North to be poorer than the South. For example, Lannisters are rich because of their gold mines (well and good Tywin's economic skills of course), it is hard to be poor with such amount of gold at your service. Tyrells are second rich family, because they have the biggest territory (except for the North), which is also the most fertile, so it's self explanatory. Not mentioning that the richest ones also have big port cities, as well as Dorn, for example.

[The Raven's Teeth]

Ned's mistake was in thinking that everyone would behave as honorably and as mercifully as he did.

:agree:

He wasn't stupid; he was just very honourable, just & merciful.

[The Raven's Teeth]

Double post, sorry peeps.