Was Ned really that stupid?

[ed Lannister]

Reading your posts I wonder if you have understood that the Westeros society is based on a medieval feudal society. Whether you like or not, in that society it's more ok for a King to screw around than for a Queen. For us to have an valuable discussion you need to understand och acknowledge this fact.

..

i agree totally with you that the Westeros society is based on a medieval feudal society...the king can do and act as he wishes but should not expect people to do whatever he says or orders.... unless he has the machinery to enforce them to toe his line...anybody with the capability to ganner enough power more than the king can usurp him....

my point's were to highlight ned actions were not about honor but securing the iron throne to the baratheons who he believed had the power in westeros(at that time)...some other great houses did not share his sentiments

going with the point you raised.... you should also understand how the king's get to rule westeros

[Northern light]

"my point's were to highlight ned actions were not about honor but securing the iron throne to the baratheons who he believed had the power in westeros(at that time)...some other great houses did not share his sentiments"

In this case honor and securing the Iron throne to the Baratheons went hand in hand since the crown prince was a bastard. If you don't believe this why do you think Tommen still is called Baratheon not Lannister? Because is the name Bartheon which gives a legtimate claim to the throne. Of course, it helps if you have the military strength to support your claim, but for you to be able to make the claim in first place you need the "right" official heritage. Can you name one person which has tried to claim the Iron throne during this series without having an "official" Baratheon or Targaryen heritage?

[alienarea]

I was just thinking today.... Ned told Cersei because he wanted to give her and her kids a chance to escape Robert's wrath. Did Ned really think Robert was going to allow them to survive even if they did get away? He would have called all his banners and leveled Casterly Rock. Am I missing something or was Ned really that naive?

Yes, he was.

[Gurkhal]

I was just thinking today.... Ned told Cersei because he wanted to give her and her kids a chance to escape Robert's wrath. Did Ned really think Robert was going to allow them to survive even if they did get away? He would have called all his banners and leveled Casterly Rock. Am I missing something or was Ned really that naive?

Man you are talking about Eddard "Blockhead" Stark. Of course he really is that stupid.

[ed Lannister]

First of all, I agree that being a Hand is not what Lord Eddard Stark was made for! When I was reading the first book, I was screaming even then - don't go, it's not for you, you're too good for that, well yes too good - he is a decent honorable man, who doesn't play games and doesn't plot anything - it was obvious from the very beginning (not mentioning the symbol of the dead dire wolf). Secondly, do you really see that council coming and being successful? Well, Robert owned a lot of gold to Lannisters, yes, but I can't see how they would explain not letting older children to take the throne, but the last one (whom as you suggested, should be Robert and Cersei's). For that they would have explain that Joffrey, Mercella and Tommen are not Baratheons, therefore, Cersei committed treason, thus she should be executed, or you expect Robert (even the way he was at that time) to take the fact of her treason calmly? You're joking, probably! As I understand you do not think that it is a treason - queen's infidelity?! Which quite strange, actually. In Westerosi, like in medieval times or even in every fairytale, it is a treason and the King can be unfaithful to his queen, while the Queen can't, because he is a ruler, not her. The first example that comes to mind immediately is Arthur and Guinevere both official story and legend. Arthur was obliged to execute her for a treason - for her love affair with Lancelot. Or Henry VIII…how many did he kill saying that his wife had a love affair? It is not our "equal" world, you know (I put equal in quotes, because even in our world there are a lot of examples of inequality).

.......in you want to compare the Arthur and Guinevere story give also.... the consequence off arthur sentencing Guinevere to death..... his kingdom basically started to collapse from that action...he lost the support of lancel family a very powerful family and Guinevere family daughter of king leodegrance another powerful family and from that he could no longer be able to secure his throne

cersei is not a common woman robert married she's the daughter of a very powerful and wealthiest man in westeros.....that just proves to you if you want to make the comparison's between the two how robert's action to execute cersei would have been a very bad idea...but calling a small council to iron out the issue would have been a better idea with all of the families present to secure the throne for baratheons...no king would be happy to learn that the queen has had bastards and her treason but any king with sense about the security of the throne would be able to smart enough to choose diplomacy first before taking actions that pose a threat to his kingdom.

the small council decide to crown egg(the fourth son) as a king bypassing the other children ahead who would have had a better claim... if ned had insisted robert /cersei to have another heir and the king leave a will known as his legitimate heir for the council to crown after robert i doubt the baratheons+ lannisters would have no objections to that..the course of action has it's risks as with any course of action but it would have been better that what ned came up with....making the lannisters an enemy...with(the martells,tyrells,viserys+dany and the dothraki as enemies) is not very smart in my POV

[Ygrain]

.....

he could have called a council with the baratheon family and lannister family to mediate the discoveries emphasizing on the saftey of the childern and not taking one action that put's the children in danger and the realm at war that would show he had the saftey of the childern as a priority or even suggest/insist them robert&cersei to have an legitimate heir as they were still relatively young to secure the throne from war .....his actions favoured a disastrous course to be set by the king in any eventuality had cersei fled as he suggested....he died out of his own folly's.....a king need's a strong hand to provide prosperity and stability to the realm....ned's decision making proves that he could not handle the post of the handship...

This is nonsense. If the can of worms was opened, with a direct proof that Cersei committed adultery (three-fold proof, in fact), there is no way she could ever maintain her marriage. Once people were no longer able to pretend ignorance, measures would have to be taken, or Robert would be done as a king. She would be tried for treason and most probably executed. Since she committed adultery with her brother, it might come down to some spectacular execution, like death by burning, for both. This all with Lord Tywin's approval, so as not to lose face - the only other option would be to call his banners, and given the Lannister popularity and the fact that he would be defending an abhorrent crime (and this is how incest is perceived), he could hope for very little support.

As for insisting that the children are spared - and how was he supposed to achieve that? They could all talk night and day, but if Robert got infuriated and insisted he wanted their heads, the heads would roll, fullstop. Disobey, and there's an even greater bloodbath, and the scenario with civil war repeats.

...ned came to KL landing to help robert rule but when he got there he found out robert had become a terrible king and even resigned from the post when he could not stomach his actions regarding assassination orders the man sent out for the remaining targs alive..the crown was in debt and made no attempt in fixing the situation he let robert's misuse continue...the only thing he came and did in KL was to investigate jon arryns death ignoring nipping the invasion threats by the dothraki&targs...his actions proves it was for personal benefit(his and his buddy's welfare to remain in power) not what was good for the realm

This si blatantly untrue. We had enough of Ned's PoVs, where did you read that? Supporting Robert was not about personal gain, but he was a bloody king, his liege lord AND his friend, and unless he went Aerys II, it was Ned's duty to support him - and by the standards of that time, even then (see what Jaime received for the best thing he ever did). The action you blame Ned most for had NOTHING to do with his personal gain, on the contrary, was absolutely against it.

issues of saving the innocent children and then claiming honor in that ...while blackmailing the queen into fleeing with the possibility of assassin's on their trail and placing the queen's immediate kin in a position of war and danger does not show a man of honor but a man who was just trying to get rid off(his enemies)...robert and cersei had done wrongs but he placed his dear friend on a pedestal that he could turn a blind eye to his faults like jon arryn did for 15yrs...had he come up with any plan to prevent wars,the threat with the dothraki ,or fixing the crown's debt the you could say he had honor

What does honour have to do with political skill, except that they seem mutually exclusive in most cases? Honour in Westerosi is about being loyal and truthful.

[ed Lannister]

"my point's were to highlight ned actions were not about honor but securing the iron throne to the baratheons who he believed had the power in westeros(at that time)...some other great houses did not share his sentiments" In this case honor and securing the Iron throne to the Baratheons went hand in hand since the crown prince was a bastard. If you don't believe this why do you think Tommen still is called Baratheon not Lannister? Because is the name Bartheon which gives a legtimate claim to the throne. Of course, it helps if you have the military strength to support your claim, but for you to be able to make the claim in first place you need the "right" official heritage. Can you name one person which has tried to claim the Iron throne during this series without having an "official" Baratheon or Targaryen heritage?

....the said "honor" is ned's own selfish code of honor coz of the resentment he shows to the lannisters which clearly the lannisters do not share

nobody reader disputes that Tommen is a bastard and calls himself as a baratheon and if you believe he is king because he is called a baratheon and the targ /baratheon you are entiltled to that.....but i personally know it's bacause the power of casterly rock,highgarden which makes him a king(the baratheon part is just PR and only if a more powerful person in terms of military strength comes along it's only that power that can remove him from the throne.

and yes Euron greyjoy has declared himself king of westeros and has launched his plans to become king....even victarion Greyjoy plans to marry dany to become king in westeros with the help of her dragons and if they win the kings will call themselves greyjoy's

[ed Lannister]

This is nonsense. If the can of worms was opened, with a direct proof that Cersei committed adultery (three-fold proof, in fact), there is no way she could ever maintain her marriage. Once people were no longer able to pretend ignorance, measures would have to be taken, or Robert would be done as a king. She would be tried for treason and most probably executed. Since she committed adultery with her brother, it might come down to some spectacular execution, like death by burning, for both. This all with Lord Tywin's approval, so as not to lose face - the only other option would be to call his banners, and given the Lannister popularity and the fact that he would be defending an abhorrent crime (and this is how incest is perceived), he could hope for very little support. As for insisting that the children are spared - and how was he supposed to achieve that? They could all talk night and day, but if Robert got infuriated and insisted he wanted their heads, the heads would roll, fullstop. Disobey, and there's an even greater bloodbath, and the scenario with civil war repeats. This si blatantly untrue. We had enough of Ned's PoVs, where did you read that? Supporting Robert was not about personal gain, but he was a bloody king, his liege lord AND his friend, and unless he went Aerys II, it was Ned's duty to support him - and by the standards of that time, even then (see what Jaime received for the best thing he ever did). The action you blame Ned most for had NOTHING to do with his personal gain, on the contrary, was absolutely against it. What does honour have to do with political skill, except that they seem mutually exclusive in most cases? Honour in Westerosi is about being loyal and truthful.

1.Not telling robert about it cost his dear friend his life......blackmailing cersei prompted cersei to eliminate robert...teling robert without calling a council would lead robert to act out of emotions of anger and go the aery's II way......whatever transgressions lannisters do they are lannisters transgressions and Tywin's philosophy is lannister solution's in ironing out them which does not allow any other person to harm a lannister(be it a king or any other great house) and i doubt he would let his favourite son be executed unless there was a way out he could find reasonable to him in his POV(lannisters perception by others does not play into his thoughts) and any lannister execution they still lose face

if it's a crime for the queen's bastards to live i have yet to come across such a law in the books....please provide if you can

if you can also provide evidence that ned was tackling the problems that were a threat to the iron throne(dothraki invasion threat,crown's debts) please provide that also(if you believe that the hand of the king is not supposed to tackle such things)....

and yes jaime did the best thing he could do and ned was one who resented him for that

and the suggestion i gave does not guarantee an amicable solution but it puts both parties/sides in position to grasp the situation at hand and they might be pissed with the news but it would have shown honor on his part in not picking an action that favors one side over the other....the self serving mutual honor and duty by the people in the kings small council to a king who is reckless in his actions is what led to aery's II doing what he wanted to the detriment of the realm.....ned showed he had the same self serving mutual honor and duty to his king would lead robert to the same course

my suggestion if ned had taken stems from Baelor Breakspear time as hand of the king (not to compare the two situations but to give an example)dunk was clearly in the right in the altracation with prince aerion and dunk stood accused of harming a royal prince which would have led to losing of the support from his bother maekar(who was not in good terms with baelor) if he sided with dunk... but he came up with a different plan to solve the issue that limited any threat to the realm and even fought on dunk's side in the trial that defines honor and duty to realm not to any reckless party and graspig the situation at hand and thinking clearly before taking action

[Ygrain]

1.Not telling robert about it cost his dear friend his life......blackmailing cersei prompted cersei to eliminate robert...teling robert without calling a council would lead robert to act out of emotions of anger and go the aery's II way......whatever transgressions lannisters do they are lannisters transgressions and Tywin's philosophy is lannister solution's in ironing out them which does not allow any other person to harm a lannister(be it a king or any other great house) and i doubt he would let his favourite son be executed unless there was a way out he could find reasonable to him in his POV(lannisters perception by others does not play into his thoughts) and any lannister execution they still lose face

I cannot see how calling a council would prevent Robert from going ballistic. Besides, I cannot see how Stannis or Renly would allow such an affront to the head of House Baratheon go unpunished, either.

Lannister perception by others plays _very_ much into Tywin’s thoughts, basically all his life was devoted to improving the Lannister image that his father had damaged. ¨However, even Tywin cannot act as it would please him when the shit that hits the fan is too big – see Tyrion’s process. He would definitely rather not have Lannister name dragged in the mud of the court process, if he could prevent it. And though Lannisters might like to deal with their own, what could he do? There would be no legal way he could oppose the punishment of his children for their crime. Illegal ways would be either a coup and murder of Robert, or an outright rebellion (or both), resulting in another civil war. Not much of an improvement.

if it's a crime for the queen's bastards to live i have yet to come across such a law in the books....please provide if you can

It’s the same crime that Rhaegar’s children committed by being Rhaegar’s, and no-one EXCEPT Ned seemed to be much bothered by it (and, sure, the Martells, but I guess this can be expected in the family). Besides, the Westerosi do not exactly have a lawbook, and especially not one telling the king what he may or may not do. The king’s word is a law by itself.

if you can also provide evidence that ned was tackling the problems that were a threat to the iron throne(dothraki invasion threat,crown's debts) please provide that also(if you believe that the hand of the king is not supposed to tackle such things)....

Your point was that by not being able to deal with the tasks of the Hand somehow affects a person’s honour, so I really do not understand why you are bringing this up. Besides, which threats are we talking here about? The Dothraki “invasion” that failed spectacularly before it even started when Drogo died of sepsis? The crown debts which Jon Arryn allowed to fester for about fifteen years? Oh, horrible, horrible Ned, wasn’t able to settle this in a matter of months. Besides, he did try to dissuade Robert from the extravagant tourney. BTW, what exactly was he supposed to do with LF for Master of Coin?

and yes jaime did the best thing he could do and ned was one who resented him for that

As much as did nearly everyone else. Kingslayer. Sometimes, doing the right thing comes with a price.

and the suggestion i gave does not guarantee an amicable solution but it puts both parties/sides in position to grasp the situation at hand and they might be pissed with the news but it would have shown honor on his part in not picking an action that favors one side over the other....the self serving mutual honor and duty by the people in the kings small council to a king who is reckless in his actions is what led to aery's II doing what he wanted to the detriment of the realm.....ned showed he had the same self serving mutual honor and duty to his king would lead robert to the same course

No. The solution you suggested would put both parties in a situation that basically requires the most drastical solutions, because tolerating Cersei’s crime would mean a total loss of face or Robert and Baratheons in general. Robert is not a princeps inter pares, he is the king AND the hurt side; the positions of the two parties are imbalanced by their very nature. It has absolutely nothing to do with Ned favouring anyone, and he is NOT self-serving in any way, there is absolutely no gain for him. He follows the rules of (ideal) conduct as determined by his society, and these rules are an equivalent of the early medieval concept that the loyalty to the king is paramount. The Westerosi social development has not reached the stage of general opinion that an inept or unstable ruler should be deposed.

my suggestion if ned had taken stems from Baelor Breakspear time as hand of the king (not to compare the two situations but to give an example)dunk was clearly in the right in the altracation with prince aerion and dunk stood accused of harming a royal prince which would have led to losing of the support from his bother maekar(who was not in good terms with baelor) if he sided with dunk... but he came up with a different plan to solve the issue that limited any threat to the realm and even fought on dunk's side in the trial that defines honor and duty to realm not to any reckless party and graspig the situation at hand and thinking clearly before taking action

I haven’t read the story. Now, what was the threat to the realm and the potentially explosive situation that would be the result of Dunk being executed?

[Gala]

.......in you want to compare the Arthur and Guinevere story give also.... the consequence off arthur sentencing Guinevere to death..... his kingdom basically started to collapse from that action...he lost the support of lancel family a very powerful family and Guinevere family daughter of king leodegrance another powerful family and from that he could no longer be able to secure his throne

cersei is not a common woman robert married she's the daughter of a very powerful and wealthiest man in westeros.....that just proves to you if you want to make the comparison's between the two how robert's action to execute cersei would have been a very bad idea...but calling a small council to iron out the issue would have been a better idea with all of the families present to secure the throne for baratheons...no king would be happy to learn that the queen has had bastards and her treason but any king with sense about the security of the throne would be able to smart enough to choose diplomacy first before taking actions that pose a threat to his kingdom.

the small council decide to crown egg(the fourth son) as a king bypassing the other children ahead who would have had a better claim... if ned had insisted robert /cersei to have another heir and the king leave a will known as his legitimate heir for the council to crown after robert i doubt the baratheons+ lannisters would have no objections to that..the course of action has it's risks as with any course of action but it would have been better that what ned came up with....making the lannisters an enemy...with(the martells,tyrells,viserys+dany and the dothraki as enemies) is not very smart in my POV

Yeap, the situation are almost exact Robert-Cersei and Arthur-Guinevre. Both women are not small folk, both have a powerful family. Only Arthur was quite reasonable and wise king, while Robert is not! I haven't notice any sign of reasonable thinking in his behavior, he is hot-tempered. Not mentioning the fact that it incest, which is both illicit by faith and just disgusting (especially if he thinks about Targs' traditions).

Of course, there is a possibility that Cersei and her children would be spared (very-very-very tiny one), but it was logical to think that it's impossible in those circumstances. Treason is the worst crime in Westeros, especially this kind of treason.

Do not make an example of Egg, it has nothing to do in this situation. Egg's older brothers were dead by that time and Aemon refused to take the throne in favor of Aegon, his beloved younger brother, so that's not the case. However, the council can do many things, of course

Cersei committed crime by law and by faith, so I can't see how she would escape sentence. Her father would start the war, but I don't think a lot of Houses would follow! He would revenge in his sneaky way, as he always did- that is true, yes.

I agree with Ygrain about everything.

[Northern light]

"

.Not telling robert about it cost his dear friend his life......blackmailing cersei prompted cersei to eliminate robert...teling robert without calling a council would lead robert to act out of emotions of anger and go the aery's II way....."

Are you sure about the chain of events here? I got the impression that Robert were already out on his hunt when Cersei and Ned had their little talk, if so this indicates that Cersei already had planned to murder Robert on that trip even before her talk with Ned.

[Drinking Cersei's Tears]

"

.Not telling robert about it cost his dear friend his life......blackmailing cersei prompted cersei to eliminate robert...teling robert without calling a council would lead robert to act out of emotions of anger and go the aery's II way....."

Are you sure about the chain of events here? I got the impression that Robert were already out on his hunt when Cersei and Ned had their little talk, if so this indicates that Cersei already had planned to murder Robert on that trip even before her talk with Ned.

That's correct. Robert left for his hunt soon after Ned broke his leg.

[ed Lannister]

Yeap, the situation are almost exact Robert-Cersei and Arthur-Guinevre. Both women are not small folk, both have a powerful family. Only Arthur was quite reasonable and wise king, while Robert is not! I haven't notice any sign of reasonable thinking in his behavior, he is hot-tempered. Not mentioning the fact that it incest, which is both illicit by faith and just disgusting (especially if he thinks about Targs' traditions). Of course, there is a possibility that Cersei and her children would be spared (very-very-very tiny one), but it was logical to think that it's impossible in those circumstances. Treason is the worst crime in Westeros, especially this kind of treason. Do not make an example of Egg, it has nothing to do in this situation. Egg's older brothers were dead by that time and Aemon refused to take the throne in favor of Aegon, his beloved younger brother, so that's not the case. However, the council can do many things, of course Cersei committed crime by law and by faith, so I can't see how she would escape sentence. Her father would start the war, but I don't think a lot of Houses would follow! He would revenge in his sneaky way, as he always did- that is true, yes. I agree with Ygrain about everything.

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well.... maybe if you were keen to get what i was stating was in regards to ned's so called honor(it's self serving in the course of his actions taken and was not good from the realm's future(baratheon's dynasty).... war would have broken out baratheons vs lannisters

the point about the smalll council in eggs situation was to highlight it's importance...... it does not exist to just rubberstamp the king's decisions but to also provide advice to the king.....

aery's II small council never tried to reign in on the king to make sound decisions and let him be driven by his emotions and mad as he was we saw the result of that...ned's course of action would have just let robert make decisions coz of his emotions and does not display the kind of honor that is respected by all in westeros....my suggestion was to merely highlight other options to maintain stability and prevent wars that he never considered+ you even point out robert was hot-headed your self....

[Ygrain]

well.... maybe if you were keen to get what i was stating was in regards to ned's so called honor(it's self serving in the course of his actions taken and was not good from the realm's future(baratheon's dynasty).... war would have broken out baratheons vs lannisters

According to the freeonlinedictionary.com, self-serving is described as 1. Serving one's own interests, especially without concern for the needs or interests of others.

2. Exhibiting concern solely for one's own interests

, and also

referring to a question asked of a party to a lawsuit or a statement by that person that serves no purpose and provides no evidence, but only argues or reinforces the legal position of that party. Example: Question asked by a lawyer of his own client: "Are you the sort of person who would never do anything dishonest?" Such a question may be objected to as "self-serving" by the opposing lawyer, and then will be disallowed by the judge, unless there is some evidentiary value. Some people add self-serving comments to their testimony, such as "I never tell lies," which can be stricken from the record as a self-serving declaration.

In which of these meanings do you use the word and on what basis?

[Summerqueen]

I think ppl are disputing that war would have broken out. Lannister couldn't do it alone, and no other house would support. Cersei would be dead, possibly her children, and Margaery at Robert's side in a heartbeat.

But the point is moot. Other than showing that he's not a monster, that he wants her to flee with her children, there are no consequences to their talk. It's contrary to evidence for people to claim Ned tipped off Cersei. She is already many steps ahead. If the wine didn't affect Robert's abilities in the hunt, it would have been some other accident, and ASAP. Ned's actions amounted to the barking of a dog you already can see on your heals. A spur, not a surprise. Same with Sansa coming to have a cry on her faux!benevolent shoulder about being sent home. She already had it covered. There was no surprise there. The problem is that the Starks in general underestimate the viciousness and corruption at court.

[ed Lannister]

I cannot see how calling a council would prevent Robert from going ballistic. Besides, I cannot see how Stannis or Renly would allow such an affront to the head of House Baratheon go unpunished, either. Lannister perception by others plays _very_ much into Tywin’s thoughts, basically all his life was devoted to improving the Lannister image that his father had damaged. ¨However, even Tywin cannot act as it would please him when the shit that hits the fan is too big – see Tyrion’s process. He would definitely rather not have Lannister name dragged in the mud of the court process, if he could prevent it. And though Lannisters might like to deal with their own, what could he do? There would be no legal way he could oppose the punishment of his children for their crime. Illegal ways would be either a coup and murder of Robert, or an outright rebellion (or both), resulting in another civil war. Not much of an improvement. It’s the same crime that Rhaegar’s children committed by being Rhaegar’s, and no-one EXCEPT Ned seemed to be much bothered by it (and, sure, the Martells, but I guess this can be expected in the family). Besides, the Westerosi do not exactly have a lawbook, and especially not one telling the king what he may or may not do. The king’s word is a law by itself. Your point was that by not being able to deal with the tasks of the Hand somehow affects a person’s honour, so I really do not understand why you are bringing this up. Besides, which threats are we talking here about? The Dothraki “invasion” that failed spectacularly before it even started when Drogo died of sepsis? The crown debts which Jon Arryn allowed to fester for about fifteen years? Oh, horrible, horrible Ned, wasn’t able to settle this in a matter of months. Besides, he did try to dissuade Robert from the extravagant tourney. BTW, what exactly was he supposed to do with LF for Master of Coin? As much as did nearly everyone else. Kingslayer. Sometimes, doing the right thing comes with a price. No. The solution you suggested would put both parties in a situation that basically requires the most drastical solutions, because tolerating Cersei’s crime would mean a total loss of face or Robert and Baratheons in general. Robert is not a princeps inter pares, he is the king AND the hurt side; the positions of the two parties are imbalanced by their very nature. It has absolutely nothing to do with Ned favouring anyone, and he is NOT self-serving in any way, there is absolutely no gain for him. He follows the rules of (ideal) conduct as determined by his society, and these rules are an equivalent of the early medieval concept that the loyalty to the king is paramount. The Westerosi social development has not reached the stage of general opinion that an inept or unstable ruler should be deposed. I haven’t read the story. Now, what was the threat to the realm and the potentially explosive situation that would be the result of Dunk being executed?

......i talked of a small council+both families called together to iron out the issue.. i never raised any issue about baratheons tolerating cersei's actions nor cersei being dragged through the courts...mutually discussing and finding a solution e.g something like annulling the marriage and exiling the queen +her bastards +jaime from westeros would be a better way of saving face coz both baratheons and lannisters are affected,rather than driving a hot tempered man to destroy an alliance that tipped the balance of power in his favor to rule westeros and tywin is a man that can be reasoned with....+note tywin's goal was to restore lannisters to power and cared for nothing about other people's opinions about lannisters

the dothraki were a threat to roberts rule at the time ned was hand of the king and ignoring them just shows his decision making skills...was ned a kind of god to know drogo would die in the future?,the crowns debt+LF he never bothered to act on them.....he was hand and running the kingdom falls on his lap as he was appointed to help the king rule and ignoring the debts of the iron bank is not something to be taken lightly.....even though he was appointed and served for a few months as you put it... his course of action would do nothing but cause more strife and war in the kingdom....is that to you a man who had the realm in his thinking at any time?

the positions of the 2 parties was balanced tywin's lending of his gold to the iron throne and helped when they were in need of funds and could not raise funds from any other source generous to the throne

[Ashkan Stark]

For one second imagine you were Ned. Your best friend was dying and you that his children are not his. You know that Stannis is the true king after Robert and by the law it is his right to be king. You are a honorable person and you know listening to Lf or Renly is not honorable and it is against everything you believe. You're options are very limited and you can't just step aside and go home. You are the protecter of the realm and it is your job to make sure everything happens according to the law. What would you do in his place??

Ned's trust to LF wasn't smart and he should have acted alone. Cersei wasn't really that much ahead, she didn't know that Ned knew everything about her and Jaime and I remember in one of her chapters in last book that she was actually thinking to scape when Ned talked to her. All I'm trying to say is Ned was right and I don't say this because I like him. One more thing, if he acted differently, he wouldn't have been such a great character and it was very unrealistic.

[Summerqueen]

I agree, Ashkan, with the last part especially. He underestimates him. Because Cat trusts him "like a little brother", because Brandon split him open in a duel, because he seems to be an ineffectual Master of Coin (anyone with decent credit can borrow money). Yes, if Ned was wrong about anything, it was underestimating LF. But I am not sure how stupid he is to do so. He can't understand a man like LF very well. He mistakenly thinks he has his measure because LF has tried to build trust between them, and he knows a couple of things about him. I generally find it difficult to blame someone who is being actively betrayed for being stupid. In the climate of the court, however, Ned should have pulled a "trust no one" attitude. The Lannisters are so overt in grabbing power, someone who does not seem to be one of their creatures backstabbing him for Lannister benefit doesn't occur to him. He doesn't imagine LF has a dog in the fight, and that's his error. Anyone with the guts to duel his brother must have the same code, matter settled, move along. LF's long term grudge baffles him, I think.

[Nucky Thompson]

Ned should've taken Roose Bolton as a hand-to-the-hand kind of thing in order to have an edge over the likes of Littlefinger/Varys/Pycelle. On his own, he tended to make stupid decisions and no one was there to correct him. Had he taken a more pragmatical (cunning even) attitude towards the matters, he had very high chances of success, despite what many think of him.

[Ygrain]

......i talked of a small council+both families called together to iron out the issue.. i never raised any issue about baratheons tolerating cersei's actions nor cersei being dragged through the courts...mutually discussing and finding a solution e.g something like annulling the marriage and exiling the queen +her bastards +jaime from westeros would be a better way of saving face coz both baratheons and lannisters are affected,rather than driving a hot tempered man to destroy an alliance that tipped the balance of power in his favor to rule westeros and tywin is a man that can be reasoned with....+note tywin's goal was to restore lannisters to power and cared for nothing about other people's opinions about lannisters

Issue? What issue? Adultery, incest and treason? These are CRIMES on the scale that CANNOT be ironed out, especially if the king is the victim here. He must retaliate even if he didn't want to - because if he didn't, he would be perceived as weak... and since his claim to the throne is only fifteen years old, other nobles might get ideas to overthrow him, if he was perceived as such. And in this situation, you suggest the thing should be discussed not only between the two families but before the council, to further smear the stain on the king's honour? What would people think of him if he just let Cersei go - that he was too afraid of Tywin to act decisively against him and his? And even if it was just between Lannisters and Baratheons, can you imagine Stannis NOT demanding that Cersei be punished according to the law/tradition?

Sure, Tywin does not care if people think Lannisters honourable, as long as they fear them... but he does care a lot about the image of invincible, strong Lannisters, and does not tolerate being laughed at. Now, the twincest would be pretty juicy gossip that would basically make Lannisters the laughingstock of the Seven Kingdoms... unless Tywin took some drastic precautions to uphold the family honour.

the dothraki were a threat to roberts rule at the time ned was hand of the king and ignoring them just shows his decision making skills...was ned a kind of god to know drogo would die in the future?

What threat were the Dothraki? As long as they had no ships (and for quite some time, not even an intention to obtain them), they constituted a zero threat. They were kept an eye on via Jorah, and if they did start purchasing ships, it would become known. It takes awfully many ships to transport tens of thousands of people AND their horses, there is no way this could have been kept secret. Can't really see why you persist Ned should have done something about it. Any suggestions what he should have done?

the crowns debt+LF he never bothered to act on them.....he was hand and running the kingdom falls on his lap as he was appointed to help the king rule and ignoring the debts of the iron bank is not something to be taken lightly.....even though he was appointed and served for a few months as you put it...

Where did you get that Ned ignored the debt with the Iron Bank? That's what Cersei did. -BTW, what was that council the importance of which you keep pointing out, doing? They were there, knew much better how Robert liked to spend than Ned did, yet Ned is constantly being singled out as THE one to blame.

his course of action would do nothing but cause more strife and war in the kingdom....

is that to you a man who had the realm in his thinking at any time?

In your own words, was Ned a kind of god to foresee that all? Not being able to foresee, and not caring, are two very different things. Practically none of the ASOIAF characters are able to foresee the long-term consequences of their actions. How does it make him unhonourable?

the positions of the 2 parties was balanced tywin's lending of his gold to the iron throne and helped when they were in need of funds and could not raise funds from any other source generous to the throne

/cough/Margaery card would bring handsome coin to Robert. Martells would be happy to contribute to Tywin's downfall, as well.