Cercei's public penitence procession: Did the punishment fit the crime?

[Raksha the Demon]

Except he also charged Margaerys cousins with "fornication" as their crime, and the only reason they weren't forced to do the walk/etc either is because of a lack of evidence.. Basically the dude is saying that females having sex when they're no married is a crime and deserves punishment. :stillsick:

Permit me to fantasize about either Daenerys' forces killing the High Septon, or having him run into Asha and try that sententious drivel on her when she's free and in possession of weapons...A girl can dream.

[Elaena Targaryen]

she doesn't deserve that for the crimes, just for being caught. i mean its not much of a punishment really. the worst part is having to walk barefoot through Kings Landing.

I know right. Not much of a punishment. Why didn't Cersei own that shit? She should have walked with her hands on her hips and swinging her hips. She should of had a huge smile on her face and she should have blown kisses to the crowd and waved like a beauty queen. Cersei could have bent down seductively to pick up that "rat on a stick" that some man threw at her. What was she thinking? Cersei could have had a lot of fun with this and throw it in the High Septon's face!

[brashcandy]

The punishment fit the story. Cersei being shaved, stripped and paraded across King's Landing is the exact equivalent of Jaime losing his right hand, Bran being crippled, Theon being gelded, and on and on and on. They all lost that which they value most, which, as should be quite apparent, is a running motif in the series. Anyone who expects differently at this point is simply deluding themselves.

Except in those other cases Martin didn't have to employ narrative gymnastics to make it happen. And Jaime and Theon certainly didn't agree to have themselves mutilated and humbled. It makes no sense that Cersei would agree to something like this, and even less that something wasn't done to stop it.

[jarl the climber]

Except in those other cases Martin didn't have to employ narrative gymnastics to make it happen. And Jaime and Theon certainly didn't agree to have themselves mutilated and humbled. It makes no sense that Cersei would agree to something like this, and even less that something wasn't done to stop it.

Whats more of a suprise is that the crowd didn't get out of hand and rip her to peices, I have to agee with the Lady of the North on this, not only did it go to far in a way but it carried to many risks as well. I think 20 or 30 lashes delivered by poor Pate the whipping boy would've been more appropiate.

[Jem]

I can't believe that Kevan actually allowed this to happen. For the Lannisters to stay in power, Tommen's legitimacy has to be unquestionable. And for that to be the case, they need Cersei to appear pure as the driven snow. It would be better for people to forget that Cersei even has a vagina, people don't need to be thinking of her in a sexual way or be reminded of her sexuality. She needs a clean and dignified image and walking naked through a crowded street isn't so good for that.

I bet that Kevan liked teaching Cersei a short, sharp lesson, but ultimately by humiliating and degredating Cersei, he is dragging the Lannister name through the mud.

[Queen Cersei I]

but there would also have been whistles of ribald appreciation; since Margaery was a slender maiden who had not yet gone through even one pregnancy, let alone three. Also, Margaery had a better reputation than Cersei; Margaery being more skilled at public relations with the people of King's Landing, and had taken pains to visit the markets, buy some goods, act like she at least liked her subjects, whatever her private feelings were; and GRRM had said (I believe) that she was fairly popular with at least some of the people of King's Landing. I do agree that we could have done without the details of Cersei's being shaved by the Septas....

There were "whistles of ribald appreciation" for Cersei, too. That was beside the point.

Those who insist that the big issue at stake in Cersei's walk was her personal vanity could not be more wrong. It was her personal automnomy, pride, and basic right to privacy that was violated.

Back to the subject-- there WERE "whistles of ribald appreciation." As Cersei herself notes, half of the people are calling out insults, the other half are calling out sexual come ons. (And probably 9/10's of those shouting out insults would LOVE to sleep with Cersei should the opportunity have arisen, IMO.) But that was not the point-- the point was that they were summing her up, judging her like a piece of meat; something that was a humiliating violation for a woman like Cersei. (Or any woman, for that matter.)

In an interview, GRRM noted that such punishments were designed to "break a woman's pride," and that "with Cersei, that's pretty essiential, because pride is pretty much the character." I disagree-- Cersei's cruelty, not her pride, is what has driven her to her truly heinous acts. Though, in AFFC, and to a slightly lesser extent, earlier volumes, more time is spent on Cersei's sexual activities, her haughty demeanor, "unnatural" desire for power, refusal to submit to a man, rejection of the "good" Tyrion and Robert Baratheon, and (it is implied) unjust resentment against her society than on her actual cruel deeds. (The one-- rather strange--- exception to this rule being her murder of Sansa's direwolf.)

IMO, the walk was, like most of Cersei's (and, to a slightly lesser extent, Jaime's) character arc in AFFC, very poorly plotted, contrived, and embarassingly manipulative. Throughout AFFC, Cersei's "wicked" sexual deeds (which get more demonization than Tyrion's rapes) are catalogued in almost obsessive detail; readers are encouraged to hate her on a very personal level, and root for her commupance-- something that, disturbingly, has major sexual overtones. I wish I could say that Cersei's sexual humiliation in ADWD came as a surprise, but it is really the only sensible continuation of her storyline in AFFC.

As for the "it was all the sexism of the times," explanation, I would love to accept that. And unlike some others, considering ADWD on its own merits alone, I think it would be possible to do so. Unfortunately, however, taking into account Cersei's previous characterizatiion and the things she is demonized for and the aspects of her behavior that are obsessively focused on, I find it impossible to believe that the walk of shame was written solely (or even primarily, or even partially) for the purpose of showing the unjust sexism of Westeros.

[Queen Cersei I]

Permit me to fantasize about either Daenerys' forces killing the High Septon, or having him run into Asha and try that sententious drivel on her when she's free and in possession of weapons...A girl can dream.

Too bad the now widely despised Danerys (lordy, just look at the hate threads if you don't believe me-- after ADWD, Dany is the new great other, apparently) will, I would bet my life, pretty much submit utterly to Tyrion the Great once the latter inevitably meets up with her to start commanding advising her.

[brashcandy]

Too bad the now widely despised Danerys (lordy, just look at the hate threads if you don't believe me-- after ADWD, Dany is the new great other, apparently) will, I would bet my life, pretty much submit utterly to Tyrion the Great once the latter inevitably meets up with her to start commanding advising her.

I wonder if her refusal to sleep with the wise and gracious Tyrion will be as much maligned as Sansa's?

[Faint]

Except in those other cases Martin didn't have to employ narrative gymnastics to make it happen. And Jaime and Theon certainly didn't agree to have themselves mutilated and humbled. It makes no sense that Cersei would agree to something like this, and even less that something wasn't done to stop it.

I have to say, I very nearly disagree with everything you've said here.

I didn't find it unreasonable at all that Cersei agreed to the punishment given how abandoned she was by all her supposed allies. Starting with Jaime, of course, but also Kevan, Taena, and even the Kettleblacks. To make matters worse, she was completely walled off and isolated. Had she known a Lannister army was coming to King's Landing, much as a Tyrell army came for Margaery, then obviously she would have never agreed to the walk. But you well know that no such army was coming and that she was expressly informed of that fact.

Moreover, I think a key point is that Cersei was very much deluded about the nature of the walk and how shaming it would all be. That's pretty apparent from the chapter itself. That said, is that fact really that unbelievable given the fallacies she was willing to believe during the course of AFfC? Remember now, this is a woman who actually thought that her maids were shrinking her dresses, that Tyrion was hiding in the walls of the Red Keep, that Sansa had been treated well under her supervision, that Margaery had been sleeping with half of King's Landing, that . . . well, you get the point.

So, no, to put it simply, the scene was not out of character; there were no narrative gymnastics in practice.

[Independent George]

It cuts two ways. The is clearly slanted to favor men over women, and the sexual humiliation of her punishment is clearly somethings that would not be done to men for the same crime. On the other hand, because she's a woman, she was not hung from a wall and tortured into a confession as was Osmund Kettleblack. That's not to say I approve of what she went through, just that it's really not any worse than what anyone else would suffer regardless of gender.

[Silmarien]

after being imprissoned for illicit sexual acts, false accusations against Margery, and abuse of power, Cersei is granted freedom provided that she walk from her prison to the castle. Small detail: she must process barefoot, naked, and fully shaved from head to tow. Did her crimes and sins merit this punishment? How do you see this event affecting the Queen and those around her.

No, the punishment was ridiculously disproportionate to her "crime" of fornication.

Why was it ok for Lancel to confess to regicide, treason, and fornication, without his own little Walk of Shame? Why was Cersei the only one made to endure this? It is a double standard that is untenable.

That said, Cersei has had innocents tortured horribly (see Qyburn) and ordered many killings (Barra and her mother). She should have been tried and punished for those crimes, not sexually humiliated. I do not like Cersei as a person, but she did not deserve the WoS, and I felt sympathy for her during this chapter.

I also felt sympathy when we were told she was taking several baths per day and scrubbing herself raw. Obviously she has been traumatized.

I hope the High Septon/Sparrow gets his due for ordering this horrid ordeal.

[Queen Cersei I]

Moreover, I think a key point is that Cersei was very much deluded about the nature of the walk and how shaming it would all be.

No, she was not. She was horrified at the prospect of the walk from the beginning; only the thought of Tommen made her decide to do it.

Which is a conundrum for those (the majority it seems) who claim that Cersei does not give a damn about her children, only about power and her own selfish interests. Why, if she does not give two craps about Tommen, would she be willing to sacrifice the tattered remains of her dignity in order to "save" him? (Which, in her mind, she was doing.) She has every reason to believe she'll never gain power again. The smart thing to do would to be endure some more days in prison until her trial arrives. I just don't get why, if she's such a total narcissist (as many claim) Cersei would do this for the sole reason of protecting her child.

And for those who don't think she realized how bad it would be, go back and read her first chapter in ADWD. She is horrified when she first hears of it; the "oh, it won't be all that bad" sentiments are merely things she starts thinking to console herself once she decides she must accept the walk as her punishment.

[Independent George]

No, the punishment was ridiculously disproportionate to her "crime" of fornication.

Why was it ok for Lancel to confess to regicide, treason, and fornication, without his own little Walk of Shame? Why was Cersei the only one made to endure this? It is a double standard that is untenable.

When Jaime encounters Lancel, he's wearing a hairshirt; the implication there is that he's been literally self-flagellating since his confession. No, he doesn't have to endure the walk, but Cersei doesn't have to have her flesh scourged from her body, either. They're different, but I can't really say that one is worse than the other.

[Faint]

No, she was not. She was horrified at the prospect of the walk from the beginning; only the thought of Tommen made her decide to do it.

I'd make the assertion that, having taken the walk, it was much, much worse than she thought it would be and, thus, that she was quite deluded beforehand about it since it was obvious to everybody but herself how it would turn out.

[jarl the climber]

In all fairness I beleive that Osney Kettleback will be executed and the other 2 Kettlebacks must either take the black or face Robert Strong and if they do admit their guilt gelding might be a possibility as well. Its seems like Lancel is getting off easy but he did almost get killed and has been disfigured, he had to give up his lordship and wife, the things he told himself that he wanted so the men aren't getting off scot free.

I do beleive that the HS does want to discredit the monarchy, it was the monarchy that reined in the faith 250 years ago.

[Revan Baratheon]

I was under the impression that the walk of shame wasn't actually an official punishment for her sins, but was a deal Kevan and the High Septon made to allow Cersei to be released, but under house arrest while waiting for her tri

al. She could have refused to do it. To me, it wasn't really made to fit her crimes, but only to kick her off her pedestral.

Exactly.I dont know the posters here are ignoring this fact.Cersei's walk of shame was necessary for her to be free from the dungeons and to place her in a slightly better situation. Apparently some people think that kevan actually "enjoyed" seeing Cersei suffer,however he actually improved her chances of survival by striking that deal with the HS.

Margary was able to escape the dungeons because randly tarly arrived with an army to KL And swore "a holy oath" to deliver her for the trial.But really it was the army that saved her.Sadly,Cersei did not have this advantage,so the walk was necessary for her to be free from her torturer.

To OP: No it did not fit the "crime",kudos to queen cersei 1 for pointing that out thoroughly and explicitly.

[LordBloodraven]

The Walk of shame wasn't politically wise for House Lannister. Tommen's legitimacy is going to be questioned soon enough. And the WoS is clearly misogynistic: the HS said so to Cersei (wantonness of widow and pride and lust of women). Maybe it fits with the rise of the Septons as a fanatical political power, but I didn't find it so much out of place.

[Fearsome Fred]

One of the men she was accused of having sex with was one of her guards during her walk of shame, only he was fully clothed, not on display and not being punished.

In fairness to Lancel, his penance has taken a huge variety of quite-severe forms. I don't buy into the sexist unfairness aspect of the situation. He was also in many ways a victim, literally trapped between two very evil people (Tyrion and Cersei).

The problem for me is simply that this kind of penance makes no kind of sense as a moral policy. Seriously, High Septon? You frown on sexual license and fornication, and your solution to this is to force sinners to put on public nudie shows? How does that help? What will you do if she backslides and sins again? "Ah, woman, you must be humiliated further! This time you must have sex with an entire platoon of soldiers. And then we must punish the soldiers. I'll rape them all myself .... "

I don't really care about the unfairness to Cersei. Indeed, it seemed plausible that her humiliation might be part of a redemption arc; that it might actually do her some good spiritually. But the High Septon is responsible for other souls, including his own. This grotesque voyeuristic display certainly did not do anything to help any of the other souls in King's Landing. What about all those mean-spirited people who were shouting abuse and insults? Are THEIR souls the better for it?

Now, I would be tempted to blame the High Septon as a deranged hypocrite, but I think that would be unfair to the High Septon. I think we need to blame GRRM.

GRRM has a deficient sense of modesty and decency. Scenes that might have been effective, go a step too far and cross the line into silly voyeurism. He does not know where to draw the line. This is not the first example, nor (I am afraid) will it be the last.

For instance, there's that utterly idiotic "Westerosi bedding ceremony" that kills suspension of disbelief every time it is mentioned. There is Catelyn parading naked in front of her Maester for absolutely no good reason. There is GRRM's repulsive attempt to manipulate the reader into feeling disgusted with Lysa by a lurid description of her puffy 30-year-old nakedness in the context of breastfeeding. He has highborn girls, supposedly polite and reserved, publicly discussing their menstrual functions in front of strange men. "I'm no child; I am a woman flowered". Etc. etc. etc.

[Queen Cersei I]

When Jaime encounters Lancel, he's wearing a hairshirt; the implication there is that he's been literally self-flagellating since his confession. No, he doesn't have to endure the walk, but Cersei doesn't have to have her flesh scourged from her body, either.

Neither did Lancel. He chose to wear that hair shirt as a form of self punishment.

[Guest]

The question of "punishment" fitting a "crime," is really an awkward one to answer.

Medieval forms of punishment, capital punishment, public executions, public shaming, state-sponsored torture, and prison gulags are still used as a means of social control today, but determining if they are "just" i.e. a punishment appropriate to offense--currently or in the past--has always struck me as odd. In other words, its hard to turn off my 21st century sense of morality about human rights (habeaus corpus is the minimum standard here) to decide if this form of public humiliation was fair to the victims of Cersei's bloody rampage.

If you look at her arc in AFFC, she starts to resemble GWB in some of the things she's done (mainly, sanctioning Qyburn's experimental torture). At a minimum my version of justice for Cersei's crimes would be to severely curtail the power of the crown and the Seven. And get a freakin' Magna Carta. And make sure she can't tear it up like she did Robert's will. In other words, I don't think Cersei's punishment distributed justice to anyone. It didn't help anyone deal with the daily violence that the crown inflicts on the small folk or the family members of other houses. Justice would mean huge structural reforms way beyond a trial.

And if we're simply talking about whether or not it was satisfying for readers to see Cersei bought low, I'm curious if others reveled reading about Jaime losing his hand. Or Theon's multiple punishments. For most people, losing family members, getting cancer, or failing to meet a goal is enough of a catalyst to set them on a different path in life. Cersei's character is so embarrassingly exaggerated, it's no wonder Martin contrived such a filthy, bombastic form of negative reinforcement to change her tune (if she even does?)

I suppose I'm in agreement with Queen Cersei in her post. That if Martin had chosen Cersei's cruelty and enjoyment of suffering as her prime characterization, he would have found a way to write the "come to Jesus" moment about that rather than her 30-year-old, flabby vagina.