Aegon

[Dragonfish]

Oh for sure there is not more than circumstantial evidence, but it's at the same time nothing we can rule out. If he IS a Blackfyre, which Blackfyre should he then be related to? There is nobody that stands out as an obvious candidate in the text.

Most people point to Illyrio's wife, Serra, as the possible Blackfyre from whom Aegon is descended.

Illyrio as a father I find very hard to believe, or find credible. Would there not be a resemblance? Aegon has Targaryen features and dyes his hair to conceal the silver Targaryen colour. Had he been the child of a distant Blackfyre and/or Illyrio, it would be unlikely he would looked so much like a trueborn Targaryen.

Eh, why? Illryio himself was fair haired, as was Serra. At the very least, I don't see why the odds of their child having the classic Valyrian look are any less than the odds of Rhaegar's child with a dark-haired Dornish girl having Valyrian looks.

Further, I can't find anything in the text hinting at Illyrio being Aegon's real father, nor any foreshadowing that Varys and Illyrio wants to put a son of one of them onto the Westerosi throne.

There's evidence of a sort in Tyrion's second chapter, where Illryio is visibly saddened that he isn't going to see Aegon again. There's also a nifty bit of foreshadowing in AFFC: Septon Meribald mentions a black iron dragon sign being torn down by Targ loyalists and thrown into the river, after which it soon washed up on shore "rusted red." This is, IMO, symbolic of a Blackfyre (the black dragon) coming back to Westeros in the guise of a Targaryen (the red dragon).

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Ah you mean Illyrio and Varys are only truthful when dealing with the Golden Company.

I don't recall saying that. That would be sort of a silly claim to make, given that we don't see 99% of Illyrio and Varys' dealings and plotting. I have no idea exactly when and to whom they are truthful.

As stated, Illyrio and Varys are good at playing people.

Varys, yes. Illyrio, not so much. When he first introduces Tyrion to Duck and Haldon he tells them Tyrion's name is 'Yollo,' a Pentoshi name. Tyrion has to cover his tracks by giving a Westerosi name 'Hugor,' because he is cunning enough to realize that his accent will give him away as a Westerosi from the Westerlands. Illyrio is not portrayed as the clever figure who guards his secrets well like Varys. He has his secrets, but he's not as good at holding them close to the chest.

Also: if Aegon is a Blackfyre, he will very likely encounter more political problems than a "true" Targaryen would among the loyalists. Regardless of his heritage, he will be forced to pose as a "real" Targaryen. The only reason for him to be a Blackfyre is for him to rally the Golden Company. However, it makes his claim to the Iron Throne far, far weaker than Dany's. As he most likely can't be both, he needs to be one of the two.

In the short perspective, it would be more advantageous for him to be a Blackfyre, but in the long run, definitely a Targaryen.

Which is why outwardly he is a Targaryen while presumably the Golden Company leadership, Varys, and Illyrio know otherwise.

From Jon Connington's perspective, it's imperative that Aegon be a Targaryen as well, so in that case, he cannot be in on the fact that Young Griff "secretly" is a Blackfyre. This means Varys and Illyrio must have kept him out of the loop with regards to the negotiations with the GC in case they did go down the route of claiming Aegon = Blackfyre.

Connington believes Aegon is Rhaegar's son. He is not in on the fact that Aegon is fake, he makes note of the fact that he does not know what dealings went on between Illyrio, Varys, and Myles Toyne, the former GC commander. And he does not know what information Toyne passed on to his successor Harry Strickland before dying. But when he shows up in their camp at Volantis he 'reveals' Aegon as a Targaryen only to find out that they already knew what he was going to say. Connington is not so very in the loop. But he is helpful in that his presence might convince people that Aegon is the real deal.

The only perosn that anyone would question his legitimacy would be, I guess The Prince of Dorne and he would only maybe do that if Quinton is alive with a dragon two. And how could we ever learn for sure? I guess Bran as a tree, or Varys/Illyrio under torture

Bran tree or Bloodraven seem the most likely way that we as readers will find out for sure whether he is real, or, as I believe, fake. The people of Westeros, sadly, may never know for sure.

[Nymphetamine]

Oh for sure there is not more than circumstantial evidence, but it's at the same time nothing we can rule out. If he IS a Blackfyre, which Blackfyre should he then be related to? There is nobody that stands out as an obvious candidate in the text. Illyrio as a father I find very hard to believe, or find credible. Would there not be a resemblance? Aegon has Targaryen features and dyes his hair to conceal the silver Targaryen colour. Had he been the child of a distant Blackfyre and/or Illyrio, it would be unlikely he would looked so much like a trueborn Targaryen.

Further, I can't find anything in the text hinting at Illyrio being Aegon's real father, nor any foreshadowing that Varys and Illyrio wants to put a son of one of them onto the Westerosi throne.

Even though Varys is a liar, it doesn't mean that he always lie. I also think that people interpret "Mummer's dragon" as Aegon being the false dragon, but it can just as well mean that it's a possessive, i.e. Varys is the Mummer. The prophecies in Martin world are vague on purpose to leave it ambiguous like this.

Personally I felt pretty smug since I have been supporting the "Baby Aegon is alive" theory for ten years. :) I will be disappointed if he is NOT the real Aegon, but I won't be terribly surprised either. It is far from a done thing.

Illyrio mentions to Tyrion that hes included candied ginger which Aegon "was always fond of" and then Tyrion notes how Illyrio seems "oddly sad."

Illyrio then gets rattled when he hears that he finds out that his feast for Aegon can't happen because of time constraints. As Tyrion is leaving he looks back at Illyrio and sees him just staring off at them with his shoulders slumped.

Martin removed a part from this chapter that was in during reads before actual publication that had Illyrio get angry when he is told about the need for haste. Illyrio obviously has strong feelings for Aegon.

Tyrion also mentions how there is something here more valuable than coins when listening to all of Illyrio's reasons for being involved in this.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Bran tree or Bloodraven seem the most likely way that we as readers will find out for sure whether he is real, or, as I believe, fake. The people of Westeros, sadly, may never know for sure.

Thats crazy, GRRM wouldn't give us that info if it doesn't fit into politics

[Buried Treasure]

I think that giving him Blackfire before he is recognised as the undisputed son of Rhaegar(whom I belive he is) would be a bad move.

:agree: (not about Aegon being real, just that being given as Blackfyre sword when claiming to be a Targ heir is unwise).

Most people point to Illyrio's wife, Serra, as the possible Blackfyre from whom Aegon is descended.

Eh, why? Illryio himself was fair haired, as was Serra. At the very least, I don't see why the odds of their child having the classic Valyrian look are any less than the odds of Rhaegar's child with a dark-haired Dornish girl having Valyrian looks.

There's evidence of a sort in Tyrion's second chapter, where Illryio is visibly saddened that he isn't going to see Aegon again. There's also a nifty bit of foreshadowing in AFFC: Septon Meribald mentions a black iron dragon sign being torn down by Targ loyalists and thrown into the river, after which it soon washed up on shore "rusted red." This is, IMO, symbolic of a Blackfyre (the black dragon) coming back to Westeros in the guise of a Targaryen (the red dragon).

The only thing we have been told about Serra is that she was purchased as a slave - which makes her a poor candidate for being a Blackfyre heir. It is possible that Illyrio was lying about her being a slave but in that case we know nothing about her - why believe she is Aegon's mother rather than any other silver-haired woman on the continent of Essos?

It would also be a fortunate coincidence if Illyrio & Serra had a child of the right age. Is Illyrio prophetic that he fathers a fake Aegon two years before the real Aegon died? Whereas if Aegon is a non-Blackfyre fake & Varys came up with the plan after the real Aegon died then Illyrio had 3 or 4 years to scour Essos for a suitable child.

Aegon doesn't have to be a blood relation for Illyrio to be fond of him. We already have the possiblilty that Illyrio fostered Aegon hinted at by the child clothes Tyrion wore.

If I am proven wrong, and Aegon is a Blackfyre, I will agree that the painted sign was foreshadowing. But it may just be a nice story that adds depth to the setting.

Fair enough, I just seem to vaguely remember someone talking about how the Karstarks felt they had a claim to Winterfell, due to a succession issue.

I've argued in the past that Robb may have considered the Karstarks as heirs, a cadet branch being at least as good as a bastard for succeeding when there are no direct line heirs (depending on other considerations), but Sansa would have been the heir without need for discussion if it hadn't been for the highly unusual circumstance of her being forcibly married into an enemy house.

[Dragon greyscale]

Illyrio mentions to Tyrion that hes included candied ginger which Aegon "was always fond of" and then Tyrion notes how Illyrio seems "oddly sad."

Illyrio then gets rattled when he hears that he finds out that his feast for Aegon can't happen because of time constraints. As Tyrion is leaving he looks back at Illyrio and sees him just staring off at them with his shoulders slumped.

Martin removed a part from this chapter that was in during reads before actual publication that had Illyrio get angry when he is told about the need for haste. Illyrio obviously has strong feelings for Aegon.

Tyrion also mentions how there is something here more valuable than coins when listening to all of Illyrio's reasons for being involved in this.

Secret targ=valuable.

On the affection argument: Connington also has strong feelings towards aegon. How is Illyrio's feeling more or less proof? This only holds on the assumption that Connington is in the dark and Illyrio knows all. In other words, you see what you want to see.

Though not in your quote, i still want to address the varys/kevan scene. Again the assumption precedes the "proof". Varys often lies has been warped into Varys always lies...even when his closest informers are nearby. Correction: because his closest informers are nearby... I still cant get my head around this argument. Why would he lie to the little birds? They follow him blindly. We have no indication that they might betray him. Following this logic, there is no circumstance in which varys would ever be truthfull bwcause the birds are everywhere. They're already in on all kinds of varys' scheming. Hell, it's not inconconcievable that they even know about varys' complicity in tywin's death. That info could seriously hurt varys. So again: why would he lie to them about this specific scheme?

[Dragonfish]

The only thing we have been told about Serra is that she was purchased as a slave - which makes her a poor candidate for being a Blackfyre heir.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, but I see absolutely no problem with the idea that a Blackfyre descendant could have been sold into slavery in the wake of Maelys the Monstrous' defeat.

It is possible that Illyrio was lying about her being a slave but in that case we know nothing about her - why believe she is Aegon's mother rather than any other silver-haired woman on the continent of Essos?

I only brought her up as a possible Blackfyre candidate, not as someone who was definitely a Blackfyre. The poster I was responding to claimed there were no Blackfyre candidates, and I was simply correcting her.

That said, as a matter of personal opinion, I have to figure George included her character for a reason, and her being a Blackfyre makes about as much sense as anything else.

It would also be a fortunate coincidence if Illyrio & Serra had a child of the right age. Is Illyrio prophetic that he fathers a fake Aegon two years before the real Aegon died? Whereas if Aegon is a non-Blackfyre fake & Varys came up with the plan after the real Aegon died then Illyrio had 3 or 4 years to scour Essos for a suitable child.

This is actually the only thing that gives me pause regarding the Blackfyre theory, but I don't think it's a completely insurmountable issue. It's possible Varys and Illyrio had some other kind of plan for putting Young Griff on the throne before Robert's Rebellion, then switched gears after the Sack when they realized he'd be a perfect stand-in for Aegon. Perhaps a bit too coincidental, but GRRM has not shied away from coincidence before.

Aegon doesn't have to be a blood relation for Illyrio to be fond of him. We already have the possiblilty that Illyrio fostered Aegon hinted at by the child clothes Tyrion wore.

True, but again, the poster I was responding to claimed there were absolutely no hints that Illryio was Young Griff's father, and I was simply pointing out that there are in fact some possible hints. They certainly don't constitute proof, but I never claimed they did.

If I am proven wrong, and Aegon is a Blackfyre, I will agree that the painted sign was foreshadowing. But it may just be a nice story that adds depth to the setting.

It's not the story itself that is the clue, it's the specific detail about a black dragon turning into a red dragon. It's an extraneous detail that has no bearing on the story being told, and even the story itself is possibly extraneous if the Blackfyres never end up coming into the picture. It honestly strikes me as a pretty blatant clue, especially coming from an author like GRRM, who is quite fond of dropping little hints and foreshadowing of future events.

[Alia of the knife]

Varys keeps his head shaved as well.

Is that a "Eunuch" fashion statement, or does it remind one of "Egg," (i.e., Aegon)?

Also, YG could actually come down from Aerion Brightflame, older Brother of Egg, whose son was passed over, (and I take it the baby was legitimate if he could be "passed" over).

And if Aerion married a Blackfyre female, that combines two very powerful opposing forces: the Blackfyres of course, and Aerions offspring who I believe would have more of a claim than his brother "Egg's" line.

They said Aerions son was passed over due to fears of madness, but was this son displaying madness as a child?

[unBloodraven]

I think that Blackfire was lost during the Blackfire rebellions a long time ago.

I think a cool theory could be that Aegon actually is a Blackfire (decended from one of the "Great Bastards") instead of a true Targaryan. Maybe, Maybe not, but it is a thought to consider.

Personally, I think that Aegon is fake. I think that the only true Targaryan is Dany, and possibly Jon.

I think that Aegon is a pretender. Remeber, he is propped up by Varys. Varys "serves the Realm" he doesnt care about who Aegon's bloodline is, He only cares that the realm prospers and that the commonfolk are treated well.

Wasn't Jon's parentage already confirmed from Ned in AGoT and Arya in ASoS; Ned&Wylia??

[Dragonfish]

Wasn't Jon's parentage already confirmed from Ned in AGoT and Arya in ASoS; Ned&Wylia??

The most common fan theory is that Jon is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, and that Ned is lying about it in order to keep Jon safe from Robert. For more info on this, I suggest you check out this essay on Jon Snow's parentage, as well as this thread (which is pinned at the top of the General Forum).

[James Arryn]

Sort OT, bu Aegon,real or not, caught me off guard. I sort of thought Edric Dayne was AT.

[Lykos]

@James Arryn

AT being Aegon? Edric Dayne is 3 years younger than Aegon.

[James Arryn]

@James Arryn

AT being Aegon? Edric Dayne is 3 years younger than Aegon.

Well that would be a flaw in my idea, then.

(serious answer, you're probably right. It wasn't something I examined...just a 'hmmm' I had when he appeared, and hadn't even resolved on Aegon specifically. More 'blood of the dragon' gist. But, one step further, i don't necessarily trust specifics like age about someone whose entourage is trying to hide. Shaving or adding a couple years would be one of the first things I'd do when building a kid's cover.)

[Lykos]

@James Arryn

I know there were speculations on Aegon being smuggled to Dorne in the "Tower of Joy, was there really a fight " thread and questions concerning Aegon pop up every now and then in R+L=J.

ETA: I thought on changing the age regarding Jon (up to a year) before. But 3 years really make a big difference. Remember the encounter with Arya and think about Edric being 13 or 16.

[James Arryn]

Cool, I'll check it out. Cheers Lykos. Or sas efharisto, if you prefer.

[Lykos]

@James Arryn

Oh, although my username suggests so, I´m not greek but german. I didn´t want it to be too obvious I´m with the wolves.

[James Arryn]

@James Arryn

Oh, although my username suggests so, I´m not greek but german. I didn´t want it to be too obvious I´m with the wolves.

Cool! Spent a lot of time in Germany in the past couple of years. Great place.

[Gentso]

Ageon being fake doesn't make much sense to me. He wants to lead the attack on Storm's End himself, whereas a pretender wouldn't feel obliged to do anything of the sort. If he were descended from Blackfyre, wouldn't he have lived out his life with the Golden Company? I've always thought myself that the three Targeryens (Aegon, Dany, and Jon) would be the ones to ride the dragons.

[James Arryn]

Ageon being fake doesn't make much sense to me. He wants to lead the attack on Storm's End himself, whereas a pretender wouldn't feel obliged to do anything of the sort. If he were descended from Blackfyre, wouldn't he have lived out his life with the Golden Company? I've always thought myself that the three Targeryens (Aegon, Dany, and Jon) would be the ones to ride the dragons.

He could be unaware he's fake. (I personally think he's probably real.)

[Dragonfish]

Ageon being fake doesn't make much sense to me. He wants to lead the attack on Storm's End himself, whereas a pretender wouldn't feel obliged to do anything of the sort. If he were descended from Blackfyre, wouldn't he have lived out his life with the Golden Company? I've always thought myself that the three Targeryens (Aegon, Dany, and Jon) would be the ones to ride the dragons.

No one is arguing that Aegon knows he's fake, only that Varys and Illryio have passed him off as Aegon. Also, most people who argue he's a Blackfyre assert that he's Illryio and Serra's child, so of course he would not have started out life in the Golden Company in that case.