A Different Slant on Jon's Heritage

[Rawien]

I'm not really sure which side I come down on with the whole R+L=J theory. I have to admit it would make alot of sense and would make Jon Snow an, (even more,) important character in the book series. However as the OP has pointed out there are other strains of theories within the books as to who his mother might be. It could be Wylla, Ashara Dayne, the Fishwife or Lyanna. (Of course it could be someone we are unaware of but that would be a pretty unsatisfying reveal by GRRM.) Naturally at least 3 of those have to be red herrings thrown in to put us off the sent of his real mother. There has been alot of hinting at the R+L=J in the books including all the quotes from above. Perhaps it's because I've read them to death but I think these hints are not so subtle. I think there's just enough hinting that its Lyanna to get us thinking that and then GRRM will pull the rug from under us and tell us it's someone else.

As far as the Ashara Dayne theory goes the OP is right that Ned is ashamed and won't admit who the mother is. If it was just anyone I'm sure he would have told at least a few people who felt they wanted to know. It would be to be expected if she was a Fishwife or Wylla. But for him to be truely ashamed it would have to be either the R+L=J thing or it would have to be Ashara Dayne. So I suppose they are, to me, the most plausible theories.

[Naathi Prince]

I would believe that Ned fathered Jon on the sisterman's daughter before this whole messy Ashara Dayne storyline.

[zodiarkslayer]

I come to realise that the story by Edric, that Jon Snow is his milkbrother can be interpreted as point for the R+L=J theory. The Point being the possible period of time Wylla was nursing Jon.

Jon was born in 283AL and Edric in 287AL so there is at lest three, maybe four years difference in age.

The fact that Edric knows this story can only mean, that he has been told by Wylla.

As we know Ned came to Starfall with Jon and the remaines of Lyanna immediatly after the Tower of Joy and then went on directly to Winterfell (by boat or horse, irrelevant). That would be the ONLY time when Wylla might have nursed Jon.

The road to Starfall is not only explained by the death of Arthur Dayne and the return of his greatsword. Ned surely wanted to bring news of his demise himself. Plus I am sure that when Ned came to the Tower he didn't know a child would be there waiting for him. I'm sure he wanted to find a wetnurse for young Jon in Starfall. Ned must've thought he would get help there. It's probably only a days or two rides from Tower of Joy to Starfall. So the child might've lifed through it.

Or Wylla was present at the Tower of Joy in the first place, since Rhaegar and Arthur knew Lyanna was giving birth soon. That could also explain Wylla nursing little Jon. She is loyal to House Dayne after all. Rhaegar and Arthur surely would have wanted a loyal wetnurse for Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, that would keep everything secret.

I personally favour the second version, since Wylla would be expected to remain at Starfall afterwards. She is part of their household I read at the Wiki.

Since Jon came with Ned from the War possibly directly from Starfall.

And ask yourselves: Concidering how everyone else in aSoIaF is thinking of bastards, why would a wetnurse tell a little Nobleman, of one of the most renwoned Houses of Dorne, that he is (milk-) brother to a bastard, if she herself wouldn't think that bastard worth more than just a regular Bastard (Promised Prince)?

[JLE]

Well. I wouldn't mind knowing just why it is that Ned wouldn't even tell Catelyn who Jon Snow's mother was, right away at once. After all if it WAS a lowborn woman (e.g. Wylla) - the only reason to hide her identity would have been if he was trying to hide the child as well, rather than parade him as one of his own. Hinting at Wylla's name without outright stating it is definitely a cover-up, otherwise he would have at least told Catelyn.

And the reason he didn't tell Catelyn is, presumably, it's something he didn't want her to talk about - and while she's level-headed enough not to talk much, she would probably have told her sister, and then the whole kingdom would know. But if the mother was Wylla or another lowborn woman, it wouldn't matter that everybody knew it (unless Catelyn tried to get some kind of revenge: but I don't believe she is - or at least, was then - the type to). Wylla isn't worth being secretive about, precisely *because* she's a nobody. Therefore Jon Snow's mother MUST be an "important" or "noble" woman.

(In fact, if a noblewoman's child needed to be kept secret, Ned could probably have named this Wylla at once as the mother, and aroused far less suspicion and far fewer questions than by trying to keep it quiet. The fact that he *didn't* do so at once is another point in favour of him being really, really uncomfortable with lying and not wanting to add one more lie to the mix... because The Big Secret is a secret that must be kept for now, but also must be able to come out some day in the future.)

Hence, of course, the Ashara Dayne theory - she's a noblewoman whose honour, in public, would be better off seen as intact than broken. And while he denies it vehemently, he may even be secretly pleased that the theory exists because it throws others off the scent...

But of course, also, hence the theory that it's actually the *father's* identity (as well as the mother's, but if the mother is Lyanna then the father of course has to be Rhaegar) that Ned is protecting by claiming the child as his own. Just as well he looks like a Stark rather than a Targaryen...

[Lady Shadow Cat]

This is something that has always stuck out to me in the R+L=J theory. As you said, the promise kept would have to be a pretty significant promise if Ned considers a price paid to keep it. What's most poignant to me in that excerpt is the comment that "Ned Stark kept his vows". It would have to be something that is against his very nature and as well as know his nature is to be extremely loyal to those around him. The one thing that is the chink in the armor of his loyalty is fathering a bastard. It's comments like these that make it hard for me to buy into anything else other than R+L=J.

This could also be a clue that he "kept his vows" to Catelyn (wedding vows).

The baby switch thing is impossible as stated by previous posters.

[DrunkSister]

The actress who plays Dany and the actor who plays Jon look like twins.

:leaving:

[Dragon Doll]

What explanation do we have for "the price he paid" if Jon is just a run-of-the-mill bastard fathered by Ned Stark? Also, if Ned did, in fact, father a bastard and they switched the children, that's another cost. He would have left his own child, likely never to see again, with someone else so he could protect Lyanna's child. So, if he did father a bastard, it only makes the price paid more.

This makes a lot more sense than a lot of other theories.

To expand on that theory, what then happened to the bastard he gave up? Will that child become relevant? Coz it too is a Stark by blood.

[lostinwesteros]

ETA: Ned Dayne is definitely not Lyanna's or Rhaegar's, he is exactly who he is. Jon is R+L, 99,99%.

:agree:

This is something that has always stuck out to me in the R+L=J theory. As you said, the promise kept would have to be a pretty significant promise if Ned considers a price paid to keep it. What's most poignant to me in that excerpt is the comment that "Ned Stark kept his vows". It would have to be something that is against his very nature and as well as know his nature is to be extremely loyal to those around him. The one thing that is the chink in the armor of his loyalty is fathering a bastard. It's comments like these that make it hard for me to buy into anything else other than R+L=J.

:agree:

Well. I wouldn't mind knowing just why it is that Ned wouldn't even tell Catelyn who Jon Snow's mother was, right away at once. After all if it WAS a lowborn woman (e.g. Wylla) - the only reason to hide her identity would have been if he was trying to hide the child as well, rather than parade him as one of his own. Hinting at Wylla's name without outright stating it is definitely a cover-up, otherwise he would have at least told Catelyn.

And the reason he didn't tell Catelyn is, presumably, it's something he didn't want her to talk about - and while she's level-headed enough not to talk much, she would probably have told her sister, and then the whole kingdom would know. But if the mother was Wylla or another lowborn woman, it wouldn't matter that everybody knew it (unless Catelyn tried to get some kind of revenge: but I don't believe she is - or at least, was then - the type to). Wylla isn't worth being secretive about, precisely *because* she's a nobody. Therefore Jon Snow's mother MUST be an "important" or "noble" woman.

(In fact, if a noblewoman's child needed to be kept secret, Ned could probably have named this Wylla at once as the mother, and aroused far less suspicion and far fewer questions than by trying to keep it quiet. The fact that he *didn't* do so at once is another point in favour of him being really, really uncomfortable with lying and not wanting to add one more lie to the mix... because The Big Secret is a secret that must be kept for now, but also must be able to come out some day in the future.)

Hence, of course, the Ashara Dayne theory - she's a noblewoman whose honour, in public, would be better off seen as intact than broken. And while he denies it vehemently, he may even be secretly pleased that the theory exists because it throws others off the scent...

But of course, also, hence the theory that it's actually the *father's* identity (as well as the mother's, but if the mother is Lyanna then the father of course has to be Rhaegar) that Ned is protecting by claiming the child as his own. Just as well he looks like a Stark rather than a Targaryen...

If I'm remembering correctly the scene in AGOT when Ned was dreaming (via milk of the poppy administered to him following the horse falling on him -- it was right before he regained consciousness), there are indicators in that dream that demonstrated how keeping the secret was painful for him [against his nature] but absolutely crucial to Lyanna. In addition, the dream also recounted the build-up to events at the Tower of Joy, a key factor in my belief that R + L = J.

Still another reason I support the R + L = J theory as opposed to Ned's being the father is that, given Ned's code of honesty and as part of his sense of honor, I believe he would have told Catelyn about Jon's parentage if he were the father. Given Catelyn's innate character, I don't believe she would have 'told', at least IMO.

Anyway, I'm writing this is a hurry during my lunch hour, so I hope it makes sense.

[The Giver]

I really like the idea of R+L=J, but I get a sneaky feeling that it is something else. Here me out, and let me know if this makes any sense:

I think that Ned was the one who shamed Ashara at the tourney by sleeping with her (unmarried). (That, or Brandon shamed her, and Ned consoled her by promising to marry her since he loved her). He may have decided to marry her to protect her honor (much like Robb marries Jeyne to protect hers), but because of the war, he needed to marry Catelyn. This would a difference in Ned and Robb's stories. Ned married the woman he needed to for the military support, even though he wanted to marry someone else, whereas Robb skips over the military option in favor of his honor.

Then Ashara would have given birth in her home and Wylla would have been there to be the wetnurse while Ned was in the middle of the war. He respected Arthur Dayne.but was forced to fight him anyway. (Romeo and Tybalt, anyone?) He took the time to bring Arthur's sword to Ashara, because of his respect for the man and because he needed to tell her, in person, that he couldn't fulfill his promise to her that he would marry her. Thus, the "price" that he had to pay.

She may have killed herself over her shame and his refusal to marry her, or in combination with her grief over her brother.

As for his promise to Lyanna. I like the idea that this refers to Jon, but since he dwells on it so much, it may be that he feels regret that he was UNABLE TO FULFILL HIS PROMISE. It could be that Lyanna had a child that Ned wanted to save, but was unable to, or that he did not keep with him. Or it could be that she asked him to save Rhaegar, but he was unable to.

My issue with Ned taking Lyanna's child from the TOJ, is that someone would have noticed him leaving the battlefield with a baby, and they would have wondered were it came from.

Now, there is the story that Ashara had a stillborn daughter, which works against my theory, but we don't know for sure that that is true, just like we don't know for sure about most of the gossip that goes around westeros about Jon's origins.

Either way, I like both Ashara and Ned = Jon and Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, so I would be pretty satisfied either way.

So to sum up, my main points in favor of Ned and Ashara being Jon's parents are as follows:

• Ned loved Ashara.
  
• His shame is that he broke his promise to marry Ashara, which led to her death.
  
• He failed to keep his promise to Lyanna (whatever it was), which is why he dwells on it so much. If he had succeeded in protecting her child, he wouldn't have worried about is so much all the time.
  
• Jon would have been born at Starfall, and would therefore have enough time to be nursed by Wylla, who lived with the Daynes.
  
• Ned visited Ashara to tell her he couldn't marry her, not just for the sword.
  
• People would have noticed Ned taking a baby away from the TOJ.
  

What do you guys think?

[MtnLion]

So to sum up, my main points in favor of Ned and Ashara being Jon's parents are as follows:

1. Ned loved Ashara.
   
2. His shame is that he broke his promise to marry Ashara, which led to her death.
   
3. He failed to keep his promise to Lyanna (whatever it was), which is why he dwells on it so much. If he had succeeded in protecting her child, he wouldn't have worried about is so much all the time.
   
4. Jon would have been born at Starfall, and would therefore have enough time to be nursed by Wylla, who lived with the Daynes.
   
5. Ned visited Ashara to tell her he couldn't marry her, not just for the sword.
   
6. People would have noticed Ned taking a baby away from the TOJ.
   

In response:

1. If Ned loved Ashara, why wouldn't Ned have thought about her directly at some point in his POVs? It doesn't make sense to place strong feelings between Ned and Ashara because he does not think about her at all.
   
2. Ned had one stain on his honor that he regretted. Here there seems to be two that are being heaped upon him, so this fails. Ned never promised to marry Ashara, again he has no direct thoughts about the Lady Ashara. It would be logical for him to remember her and his failure to follow through on a promise to her, if this was the case.
   
3. If his promise to Lyanna is treason to King Robert, he has every reason to worry all of the time. Some things are too dangerous to share, even with the ones that you love most. What would Catelyn do if one or all of her children was threatened by another person? Ned didn't want to think about that possibilit. He never names or thinks about Jon's mother, but he does think about blue winter roses at the strangest moments.
   
4. If Jon is born at the tower, and Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne enroute back home, he certainly may have to wait for a ship to carry him and Jon, at Starfall, long enough to meet and employ Wylla.
   
5. Ned returned Dawn to House Dayne. Is it reasonable for Ashara to ask of news about her BFF Elia? Ned is fresh from the war, King's Landing, etc. so he must have relatively accurate news that he can pass on. Ned is utterly pissed at how Robert received the Lannister "gifts" wrapped in cloaks. He and Robert had nearly started a new war in King's Landing over it. Only Jon Arryn was able to defuse the situation and send Ned away to mop up at Storm's End. It does not seem unreasonable that he would not have bothered to sugar coat the news about Elia and the children. That certainly could have caused some grief for Ashara, and it would especially be true if Aegon happened to be her son, switched with Elia's stillborn daughter.
   
6. What people were at the tower? We know Ned, Jon (the blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice), and Howland Reed were. Even though they certainly would have noticed him arriving with a newborn at Starfall, I'm sure that Ned had a cover story, if Lyanna had asked him to do something that was treason.
   

[Arya Targaryen]

I think Ned loved Ashara. But Ashara was more into Brandon.

She got pregnant from Brandon. I think Ned might have considered to marry her (because Brandon was just about to marry Cat and wouldn't have married). Ashara might have known it.

But Brandon died, Ned married Cat out of duty + acknowledged Jon as his bastard. Ashara"s child was stillborn. Arhur died, Elia died, Rhaegar died - practically everybody was dead at that point of whom Ashara might have cared about. That's why she committed suicide.

[naten53]

In my mind there is one big thing that any theory other then R+L=J must overcome: Why were three members of the Kingsgaurd there?!!!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_Joy

Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The vow is the oath to protect the King.

Aerys II is dead

Rhaegar is dead

That makes who the King?

[TFP]

In my mind there is one big thing that any theory other then R+L=J must overcome: Why were three members of the Kingsgaurd there?!!!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_Joy

Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The vow is the oath to protect the King.

Aerys II is dead

Rhaegar is dead

That makes who the King?

his eldest surviving child, legit boys first, legit girls second, then... Back up to Vis. But I don't know how much the knights would have known about what was going on up at dragon stone. A long way away.

[MtnLion]

his eldest surviving child, legit boys first, legit girls second, then... Back up to Vis. But I don't know how much the knights would have known about what was going on up at dragon stone. A long way away.

Sorry, you are so close. Legit boys, first, when all males are exhausted then they start on females. In other words, Stannis comes before Daenerys, but a lot of people don't like that and will object. It will play out later, though, Daenerys has to be a slayer of lies.

Ned told them what was going on at Dragonstone, "Prince Viserys".