[Book Spoilers] Jaime killing Cleos/Alton

[imladolen]

I didn't like this scene at all because Alton (who I believe is supposed to be Cleos Frey) is such a likeable young man. I always envisioned Cleos Frey as an old stuffy thing because that is the way Roy Dotrice reads him in the audiobooks. So after than when I read the books that is still how I saw him. Alton is young and honest. I had a hard time watching this scene when I watched the espisode a second time and switched channels until I knew it was over. But I get that they have to establish Jamie early on as an a**hole and then show his transformation. The question is who will take his hand?

Well, from what we have learned of Rhaegar Targaryen he too was a nice guy, a great caring person. And that psycho Robert Baratheon (who was so damned obsessive in his unrequited love for Lyanna that it seems to border on stalker-ness) killed him. So, where is the Robert hate?

At least Jaime kills for a real reason; Robert killed because it cleared his head.

[Fantôme]

Well, from what we have learned of Rhaegar Targaryen he too was a nice guy, a great caring person. And that psycho Robert Baratheon (who was so damned obsessive in his unrequited love for Lyanna that it seems to border on stalker-ness) killed him. So, where is the Robert hate? At least Jaime kills for a real reason; Robert killed because it cleared his head.

That's not remotely comparable. It was war. They were enemies.Alton is not Jaime's enemy he's his cousin who seems to worship him.

[zippypoodle]

He tried to kill Bran in order to silence him. He Killed aerys to stop him burning down the city. He killed Ned's guards to get revenge for his brother. He killed his jailer in order to escape. There's literally no reason to kill Alton. The escape doesn't rely on it. Alton isn't a threat to him, Alton hasn't wronged him in any way. It's a kill for the sake of a kill and thus not in keeping with Jaime's MO as i see it. Add on top of that that Alton is a Lannister, even if a very minor one, and it all becomes too hard to swallow.

I'm not saying I'm 100% on board with the Jaime killing Alton thing. In fact, I was a bit taken aback by it upon first viewing. But after thinking about it for a bit, I realized that it's just not that out of character for Jaime. He's always done whatever he wants at the expense of whomever and whatever it takes. Even having sex with Cersei falls into that--he refused to take into consideration the possible, even likely, ramifications of impregnating the queen with bastard children, incestuous bastard children no less. Even if the two of them insisted on having sex, Jaime should absolutely have insisted that Cersei take protections against pregnancy and/or take such precautions himself. Or even If Cersei had just had at least one of Robert's children and let Jaime father the others, suspicion would have been waylaid. But he had his reasons--Robert was a philanderer who disrespected his sister/lover, just like he had his reasons for all the things mentioned above. But he also had his reasons for killing Alton (to escape) even if you think it wasn't a smart decision. Pushing Bran out the window wasn't a smart decision. Leaving morality out of it, you either let the kid live unharmed or make damn sure he's dead and hide the body. But instead, he acted on his first impulse. Jaime's redemption is just as much about him learning to think about the consequences of his actions as it is growing a conscience.

Some readers look deeper; some don't. It's all good. :cool4:

But sometimes when they attempt to look deeper, all they get is deeper into a pile of BS.

[Wex Pyke]

I hate this scene.

[imladolen]

That's not remotely comparable. It was war. They were enemies.Alton is not Jaime's enemy he's his cousin who seems to worship him.

If you are right, then why the hell was Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) named kinslayer for killing Daemon Blackfyre and Daemon's twin sons WHILE IN BATTLE?

[Somnus]

Actually, I loved this scene.

It seemed like something Jaime would do. After all he'd do ANYTHING to go back to his dear Cersei.

And it's pretty obvious Alton ISN'T a Lannister from Casterly Rock. He spent the minutes before complaining how his father didn't want him to squire Jaime because he'd ashame THEIR branch of the family or how they had to seat very far from the main family during the feast.

I think it's pretty obvious that he's from Lannisport. So Jaime killing Alton to me is Kinslaying as much as what Robb does to Rickard Karstark.

[Fantôme]

If you are right, then why the hell was Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) named kinslayer for killing Daemon Blackfyre and Daemon's twin sons WHILE IN BATTLE?

Not sure what your point is. Yes kinslaying is kinslaying whatever the consequences. Were Rhaegar and Robert related (I mean more than "my faraway ancestor had dragon blood)? If not, I still don't see how Robert killing Rhaegar in a battle where they were enemies has anything to do with that. And also imo Robert's anger and thirst for revenge was more of a reason to kill than Jaime 's... what? inability to find another way to escape, like say, ask Alton to pretend to be dead ?

[salt]

This was an extremely dark scene for Jaime. However, are we sure "kinslayer" applies here? Being labeled a kinslayer is a pretty big deal, are there examples of that being true for someone who kills a cousin? I know Bloodraven was called a kinslayer and I forget exactly who he killed, so maybe someone more familiar with his story can correct me, but I always thought it applied to people who killed someone in their immediate family. Nobility intermarry so much that if you start applying the term Kinslayer to those who kill a cousin, every knight who goes into battle is going to have to check a portable family genealogy before they attack anyone. Hell, even Viserys and Edric Storm are related.

[salt]

Also, as far as this being "too dark" for Jaime, lets remember that its only luck that kept him from going "too far" before his redemption arc. Of course there is Bran only being paralyzed instead of being killed, but remember that on the Kingsroad he was out searching for Arya and would have cut her hand off if he had found her first.

He was going to chop off a little girl's hand because his sister demanded it of him while he was fucking her. If he wasn't a monster, he was pretty damn close.

[K.C.]

do you happen to remember how much jamie cared about cleos in the books?

This is what I kept thinking when I read the posts about it being somehow out of character. Yes, Alton was a Lannister by blood rather than marriage, but they did their best to establish that he's from a different branch, so distantly related that Jaime doesn't even know who his parents are.

Any talk about it making him somehow less redeemable should stop at the part where he shoves a little boy out a window. By the way, I thought the Brienne/Jaime lines they gave to Cat worked just as well. Having him bring up Ned's bastard was a nice touch.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

If they share the same last name...they are KIN.

Hence Jaime in the tv show is a kinslayer.

As for Book Jaime yes he was a monster. He did terrible things. And he would done even more terrible things if he had the chance too. Such as mauling Arya for what she and Nymeria had done to Joffrey.

HOWEVER Jaime isn't just a monster by the end of ASOS. He becomes a deeper more complex character because of his storyline with Brienne. And by the end of it all you feel for Jaime. Even if its just a sliver of pity and understanding its THERE (for most of us). The problem with HBO and this ridiculous scene is that its going to make it that much more difficult to feel anything for Jaime later on.

Of all the characters on the canvas I believe Jaime has the best chance of redemption. He robbed Bran of his legs and his glorious dreams of being a knight. In return Jaime lost his hand and essentially his identity and self worth. I'm not saying their even but Jaime has suffered and will continue to suffer in my opinion as Myrcella and Tommen pay for the sins of their father AND mother.

[salt]

If they share the same last name...they are KIN.

Where are you getting this from? Obviously its not that simple, as Bloodraven and the man he killed did not share a last name.

Is there anywhere in the books where killing a distant cousin counts as kinslaying?

[Xanrn]

What I hated about this scene.

Was in the name of fucking hell was Torrehen Karstark a fucking noble, guarding prisoners all by his goddam lonesome..

1. One guard is just stupid even for 2 men.

2. Nobles do not to guard duty in the middle of the night, maybe in command of other guards.

3. Really wearing the Keys on your belt?

4. Its a miracle Kingslayer didn't make a rope from the belts and grapple the keys.

The whole scene was a stupid scene.

Why do they need to make that Catelyns reason for freeing Jaime, when they fake killed Rickon and Bran anyway.

[EveryoneRelax]

Not sure what your point is. Yes kinslaying is kinslaying whatever the consequences. Were Rhaegar and Robert related (I mean more than "my faraway ancestor had dragon blood)? If not, I still don't see how Robert killing Rhaegar in a battle where they were enemies has anything to do with that. And also imo Robert's anger and thirst for revenge was more of a reason to kill than Jaime 's... what? inability to find another way to escape, like say, ask Alton to pretend to be dead ?

Actually Aegon the Unlikely's daughter is Steffon Baratheon (Roberts fathers mother) So it wasn't that super far back. Steffon and Aerys would have been first cousins I believe. If a Stark killing a Karstark is a kinslaying then yes that probably should have been.

[Fantôme]

Actually Aegon the Unlikely's daughter is Steffon Baratheon (Roberts fathers mother) So it wasn't that super far back. Steffon and Aerys would have been first cousins I believe. If a Stark killing a Karstark is a kinslaying then yes that probably should have been.

Problem is, absolutely nobody in the books, not even his enemies who'll naturally look for any way to demonize him, ever calls him a kinslayer. So I'm guessing they're not considered kin or Viserys or any of them would have called him that already.

Besides my main point wasn't about kinslaying but about how can anyone compare Jaime killing his innocent cousin and fellow prisoner for no real reason and Robert killing his hated enemy in battle , during the war. Alton was not Jaime's enemy.

Question about the Karstark cause I don't remember well: Does anybody but the Karstarks themselves call a Stark killing a Karstark kinslaying?

edit: I did a quick research in the ebooks and nobody but the Karstark call it kinslaying so it's probably just a pretext.In fact ,the murder with the least closely related victim recognized as kinslaying is Tyrion being accused of Joffrey's death or Bloodraven for Daemon and his sons so , no , Robert isn't a kinslayer. As for Jaime in the show, I don't know but kinslaying or not, it was a gratuitous and cruel murder of someone who was neither his enemy nor an immediate danger to him and with whom he just had a conversation showing how he worshipped him so it does make him a heartless beast.

[Archmaester Marwin]

it seems to be common opinion that killing children is understandable if its done to protect one's sex life

No, but that DID protect his love from Robert's wrath. They, and the children, would have been killed if Bran told. Jaime acted boldly, impulsively, rashly, and without much regard for anyone outside his immediate family. He figures he can do whatever he feels like and tie off loose ends later with his sword and the power that his rich and feared family provides. That is Jaime.

The show version, he kills a member of his family (albeit distant) in a creepy calculating way after charming him into comfort. Why that plan worked is not even clear to me. If I was the guard, I'd be like "lol way to kill your cousin for no reason kingslayer, definitely not comnig in there now". But most of all, WHY WAS THE KARSTARK BOY THE GUARD? WHAT WAS THE LOGIC? Ok guys, we have a really valuable POW. Lets have one man guard him...and lets have that one man be....A LORDLING. So stupid. Words cannot describe.

TV Jaime's redemption is now impossible due to this entirely selfish, sociopathic act. I'm done with the show, they have failed.

[Archmaester Marwin]

What I hated about this scene.

Was in the name of fucking hell was Torrehen Karstark a fucking noble, guarding prisoners all by his goddam lonesome..

1. One guard is just stupid even for 2 men.

2. Nobles do not to guard duty in the middle of the night, maybe in command of other guards.

3. Really wearing the Keys on your belt?

4. Its a miracle Kingslayer didn't make a rope from the belts and grapple the keys.

The whole scene was a stupid scene.

Why do they need to make that Catelyns reason for freeing Jaime, when they fake killed Rickon and Bran anyway.

DIdn't see this post, but you are dead on. It was so dumb. I wonder who the hell is approving these scripts.

[Archmaester Marwin]

This was an extremely dark scene for Jaime. However, are we sure "kinslayer" applies here? Being labeled a kinslayer is a pretty big deal, are there examples of that being true for someone who kills a cousin? I know Bloodraven was called a kinslayer and I forget exactly who he killed, so maybe someone more familiar with his story can correct me, but I always thought it applied to people who killed someone in their immediate family. Nobility intermarry so much that if you start applying the term Kinslayer to those who kill a cousin, every knight who goes into battle is going to have to check a portable family genealogy before they attack anyone. Hell, even Viserys and Edric Storm are related.

Bloodraven (Brynden Rivers) killed Daemon Blackfyre, his half brother. They were both legitimized bastard sons of Aegon the Unworthy. It should be mentioned I guess that Bloodraven mentions that he would be considered a kingslayer if he killed Daemon II, Daemon's son, who I guess would be his half-nephew.

[Castel]

The thing with the Karstarks was just Lord KArstark trying to keep his head according to Martin.

[Shoemaker]

I generally don't complain, and don't mind the changes at all, even welcome them. I think in many ways the show is surpassing the book. But I disliked this move a lot - not just because it moves Jaime away from the character of the books, and makes his redemption more difficult to accept, but also because it moves Jaime away from the character OF THE SHOW as he's been introduced up to now.

Firstly, do I think that Jaime is above kinslaying, in either book or show? No. Tyrion in the books is pretty confident that Jaime will kill Lancel when he returns, and Tyrion as we know is a pretty good judge of character. He makes the same threat to Lancel in the show, and it must be a believable one given that its succesful at intimidating him.

The problem is not that Jaime is above killing family members, but in the way that he killed him. Not just the book, but the SHOW also, has introduced Jaime as a man who is ruthless, and does not mind killing his enemies, but that at the same time he is a man who doesn't play games, and has his own personal sense of honour in that when he kills somebody, he wants it to be a 'clean' death, in a face-to-face battle. This is a man who by his own admission, and as his father successfully judges, in the show, hates the fact that he is being called a kinglsayer for stabbing the mad king "in the back". This is a man who knocks out own of his men for stabbing Ned Stark in the foot and preventing it from being a 'clean' fight. This is the man who by his own admission doesn't want to be part of the game, whom his sister admits to never taking it seriously. This is the man who when Catelyn confronts him about what happened to Bran, comes out and straight tells her that he pushed him off a window because he wanted him to die. Yes he pushes Bran off to his death, but that is an act of the moment because he has to protect the other defining feature of his character - i.e. his love for Cercei.

If we allow ourselves to go to the book, Jaime, when managing to get a sword, is more than willing to fight Brienne with the intend to kill, but refuses to kill her sneakily with his oar, while she is swimming in the river.

I would not mind if he killed his cousin in a scene where, say, he is escaping, and his cousin, terrified, stands in his way, pulls a sword out, and tells him 'Cousin, this is madness!'. But what Jaime does is emotionally manipulate his cousin, play a game with him, lead him to trust him, and then kills him sneakily in an underhanded, completely unfair, and dishonorable way. That is NOT something that the character the SHOW introduced would do. In this regard the show is inconsistent with itself not just the book. What makes it even worse is that there's a thousand different ways that an escape attempt could have been thought of, and a thousand different ways for Jaime to kill his cousin in a more 'clean' way, if that was desirable. But the show went with the method that was the most dishonorable, apparently for shock value, and without much concern for internal consistency.

I kind of agree with you, especially that Alton's death was bit out of character for Jaime and his very own moral code of "clean deaths". It is odd that he could dispense a clean death but not his cousin. You can't might say this illustrates how truly desperate/reduced he was at the time - and I think he must have been on an all time low.

But it was a really good scene and I really liked it - just not the ramifications for Jaime's character