Patchface Prophesies

[The Bear]

I have to wonder if 'Under the sea...' pertains to different things each time. He was lost at sea, where apparently his mind was utterly broken and now he can only think in terms of the ocean and relate what he sees/hears/thinks in terms related to the sea. Maybe the 'under the sea' isn't actually important, just what follows.

Then again, I also like the idea that he's there as a kind of juxtaposition with Mel and her 'prophesies' and shows that 'any fool' can make one.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I have to wonder if 'Under the sea...' pertains to different things each time. He was lost at sea, where apparently his mind was utterly broken and now he can only think in terms of the ocean and relate what he sees/hears/thinks in terms related to the sea. Maybe the 'under the sea' isn't actually important, just what follows.

Then again, I also like the idea that he's there as a kind of juxtaposition with Mel and her 'prophesies' and shows that 'any fool' can make one.

While yes any 'fool' can make prophesy.... but it is something else entirely to make a prophesy that comes true. Patchface makes a rather specific prophesy in Clash of Kings that is indisputably fulfilled in Storm of Swords. This is problematic for we the fans, as Patchface's other 'songs' thus far appear to be nothing more than the output from a damaged brain. George has cleverly set things up so that we now must scrutinize Patchface's ramblings about snow falling up, conch shells, mermen, nellymoans (?) and other such non-sense because we now know that the possibility for accurate prophesies from Patchface is undeniable.

One aspect of prophesy that seems universal is the 'User Error' on the receiving end.

[The Bear]

I should clarify I mean any fool can make a prophecy and have it come true once. It's only a suggestion, I don't think it's the likely answer because it was just such a perfect prophecy, but the others are far more ambiguous and we can't definitively link them to anything that has happened quite yet.

[Jmbekrub]

Hi everyone, First, the information in this post is all about the TV version of the show, and obviously differs from the book series in some aspects.

I just wanted to share some information about the tv show, specifically about the last episode "kissed by fire". On the "game of owns" podcast they had Bryan Cogman on, the writer of the episode. First, he states that "Recently David and Dan and I visited George at his home in Santa Fe and talked about the future of the whole saga and where various story lines and characters were going, because were at the point know what were laying the groundwork for, so, so I do know a lot", indicating he knows many key important parts.

On patchface and the episode he writes "I gave a little nod to patchface. I gave his ravings to her, you know, in the book hes hopping around, "theres always something under the sea", which I loved, I actually wrote a version of the scene that had patchface in it, and it just wouldn't have worked, it was tricky enough to introduce his wife and daughter, and deal with stannis to have a jester bouncing up and down raving, its just, I would have liked to make it work, but..."

on the song, "theres two ways you can look at it, it can either be a demented children's song that she knows, or it could be that patchface is off screen and shes singing something she hears him sing every day and we just arent seeing patchface. one thing it doesn't mean, I think some people are worried that shireen is crazy. Shes not, shes just singing a song, its a demented song..."

Next he states that "if you listen to the imagery, its all imagery that connects with various plot lines in the show..." "Its based on patchfaces ravings and some lines I came up with myself..."

Lastly, I want to include that he may not know everything. -"he's made us privy to allot of it, I think theres still some stuff he's keeping close to his chest", but GRRM is also fine with what they have done in the show. "we send him (GRRM) the outline, and he weighs in on changes we might have made, and we have a dialogue about it..."

From listening to the podcast, I feel like the songs are important, but patchface may not be as important for the story... Any thoughts?

[AegonSnow]

I think R'hollr and the Drowned God are enemies.

The Drowned God being another name for the Nameless one.

Drowned god - WATER, Cold, Death

R'hollr - Fire, Warmth, Life

Thus, Patchface could be a mouhpiece of the OTHER and VERY DANGEROUS.

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

I think 'under the sea' simply means 'in my dreams/visions'

[Bastard of Baltimore]

Patchface’s prophetic and increasingly creepy nature has made him an intriguing character to me. His purpose remains foggy, but I certainly think he will contribute to something sinister at the wall. The fact that he was found washed ashore three days after Lord Steffon Baratheon’s ship sank and that Jommy, the man who found Patchface washed ashore, insisted that he was dead when he found him points to Patchface being something other than human.

I don’t think that the identity of pre-shipwreck Patchface will matter much, since we are told via Cressen and his account of Steffon Baratheon’s letter that he is an entirely different creature since washing ashore. What really matters is what Patchface truly is, which can help us define his agenda, or his master’s agenda. Is he being controlled/warged by someone, is he a wight of some kind, a manifestation of the drowned god, an agent of the great other, a pet of Euron, or just some crazy prophet?

I did not think Patchface would have a very important part to play in the story until we received Melisandre’s visions and words about him as well as his latest rants in Dance with Dragons, which are very dark and foreboding.

One theory I like is that someone is controlling Patchface. We only have one instance of someone warging into a human and that person was simple-minded, not entirely different from what we are led to believe about Patchface. The only other people I could see potentially warging Patchface would be Bloodraven or Euron. Euron would be an option based on his parallels to Bran with him bringing up his dream of flying and the actual kraken, which many people theorize that Euron controls. But what would be gained from warging Patchface, and what purpose would be served by giving cryptic prophetic messages? BR’s agenda is not entirely clear but seems to be on the side of good, Euron by most accounts is mad, has dabbled in dark magics and may have something to benefit from the chaos that would ensue if the White Walkers/wights attack the north, so if Patchface is being controlled Euron would be my best guess.

Whoever or whatever Patchface is, most of Patchface’s new quotes seem to prophesize the upcoming entry of the white walkers and their army into the plotline.

Under the sea the crows are white as snow = Dead Crows/Wight Crows/ White Walkers’ Army

I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. = Patchface’s involvement in aiding the Wight Army’s attack?

mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.= Predicting the horn of Joruman and the coming of the others/ Patchface blows the horn?

There is a good bit of speculation here that will only be confirmed by GRRM, but I am very excited to see what Patchface’s role will be. He is certainly more than he seems.

[adant]

I think 'under the sea' simply means 'in my dreams/visions'

I agree, I think the "under the sea" the prefaces Patchface's predictions more refers to the literal place Patchface goes mentally when he receives his visions, not so much a direct implication of death, just the ends of his prophecies usually imply death. I think of it in the way that Mel locates her visions in the fires. Or the way the Iron Born imagine the Drowned God's Halls as a very physical place. Patchface introduces each vision with "under the sea" because in his mind that's where he's just come from and he's reporting back what he saw. Patchface's visions are all distinctive imagery and very short as if he is unable to maintain the vision. i don't think Patchface has the control over vision that Mel has so it makes sense that his visions would appear to him as sporadically as they do for the reader and not at will, so he may be just as surprised at the content of the vision. The "under the sea" is simply a clue to the reader as to the visual Patchface is about to set up and where it starts and ends as bracketed by the "I know, I know, I know"

[OneDoesNotSimplyHodor]

It's worth noting some things in the final chapter that we see Patchface in... (the final Jon chapter in ADWD).

When Selyse is trying to persuade Jon to let the Hardhome folks perish, Martin tells us that:

The chamber was crowded. Princess Shireen stood beside her mother's seat, with Patchface cross-legged at her feet. Behind the queen loomed Ser Axell Florent. Melisandre of Asshai stood closer to the fire, the ruby at her throat pulsing with every breath she took.

I find this interesting for a couple of reasons. First of all, Axel Florent is 'Looming' behind Selyse, suggesting that he is in a threatening stance, looming ominously in the shadows. (perhaps because he is aware of what is about to happen? who knows, another thread). Mel is near to the fire, perhaps to make herself feel safer, as she doesn't like being in the presence of Patchface and / or in general, she likes to be close to fire as much as possible.

But the next part is even more interesting to me - though perhaps a little far fetched... but hear me out. Patchface is sitting cross legged at Shireen's feet. This feels very ominous to me, and sitting in the crossed leg position could possibly imply that he is in a meditative state of some kind (lotus position). Now, that being said, it could tie in to the theories that Patch indeed has prophetic thoughts (or visions similar to the various seers in the books) and right as rain, moments later he has one when Ser Malegorn asks Jon who he proposes:

Up spoke Ser Malegorn. "Lord Snow, who will lead this ranging?"

"Are you offering yourself, ser?"

"Do I look so foolish?"

Patchface jumped up. "I will lead it!" his bells rang merrily. "We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh"

Again, interesting choice of words. "Do I look so foolish?" which triggers Patchface to share his thoughts. Is Martin dropping a subtle hint that Patchface merely 'looks' to be a fool?

As for the actual meaning of his 'riddle' many have given strong possibilities so I wont repeat post them, but I thought this other stuff worthy of a mention. It seems to strengthen theories further.

[NongOfIceAndFire]

Bryan Cogman (the lore nerd on set) wrote the scene where Selysse and Shireen were introduced.

Apparently he was trying to squeeze Patchface in there but singing and whacking people with bladders on sticks would have turned the stillborn fetuses in jars scene into a farce.

He settled with Shireen singing some of Patchface's songs, so he's off camera but in there.

Thrilled to see where he'll turn up.

I'm guessing he is integral enough to the plot he can't be dropped. Fingers crossed we get proof of this early next season.

What they choose to keep in his ramblings will be telling as the directors have been clued in by GRRM.

[SerGrahamando ofUttershill]

“We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

The galley that Sansa escapes KL in has as its figurehead a German with a golden crown blowing a seashell horn. Sansa is going to lead the Stark revival.

[Persicaria]

I think that within the water their maybe a dark force all it's own , sympathetic to the others but different. I can't help but feel when Aeron foumd his drowned god, and that there is a reason the house Greyjoy has a Kraken as it's symbol and we may yet see the reason why. Perhaps Patchface found the drowned god, or it found him. With the arrival of the dragons all sorts of inhuman things have begun to happen once again. A red comet that lights the sky for weeks (I am a little funny with Westeros time), magic appearing once again, the white walkers growing in number, direwolves appearing when thought extinct, why not monsters and gods from the sea.

[JungWheats]

He's one of dem Squishers, right?

[Boxy Robot]

New to the boards, but love the series! Definitely an addict (though quite a novitiate compared to some of these awesome posters!)

I won't even pretend to understand Patchface's whole history or MO (I would like to think he's an avatar of/messenger from/somehow connected to the Drowned God, but other than that he's got me), but I like trying to figure out his "prophecies".

The one I keep coming back to is the "smoke rising in bubbles". In my mind I connect it to Danaerys' vision in the HotU - the "stone beast from the smoking tower breathing shadow fire", which is one of the "lies" she will slay. Danaerys' dragons are green, cream (which would look blue "under the sea"), and black. Maye Patchface's song is comparing the false AA in Stannis (the smoke) and the true dragon (the fire). Again, this might be totally crackpot, but still fun to guess!

[Psyren]

Patchface's creepiness and Melisandre's aversion to him lead me to believe he might be a servant of the Other. And come to think of it, while we're on the subject of the Other - doesn't Moqorro think the Drowned God is evil too?

"Your Drowned God is a demon," the black priest Moqorro said afterward. "He is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken."

Moqorro, as we know, has extremely accurate visions - far more accurate than those of Melisandre. So we have reason to consider his views authoritative, and can therefore infer that the Drowned God is likely a servant or aspect of the Other. Then we have the Drowned God's catechism - "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" - which sounds at first to be a reference to their baptism ceremony, but could just as easily refer to the wights, a host of which is apparently moving about on the ocean floor. Patchface's "white crows" prophecy seems to indicate he knows about the undead down there.

Patchface's creepiness and drowning could thus be related to both the Drowned God and the Other. Would that make the Storm God an aspect of R'hllor? It seems likely, since a storm is what brought Moqorro to Victarion, and Moqorro knew he would survive the storm that destroyed his ship - implying R'hllor sent it.

[kav12]

Firstly, hello guys, im new here and sorry for my bad English at the start :)

But now i was reading this topic (i really love theories about fortunetellers, etc), and i just realized that i think "Under the sea" means winter. Because sea is made of water, and snow is also water, and under it = under the snow. But i have a doubt with it, with only one prophesy: "It is always summer under the sea"

It may mean that under the snow there are the earth and plants, but i dont think so. Any guesses?

[I know I know]

I've probably spent more time on Patchface than on any other aspect of asoiaf, he (and Farwynd) are two sides of imho the most intriguing part of the cosmology.

"Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool"

I believe that Patchface is deeply insightful about the big picture, and that the sea he speaks of is the realm underneath and outside of man. The shrouded dimensions of spirit, death, shadow, and blood, always out of our sight. That sea is now rising, ice and fire and death, as it has before, to engulf the realm of man - its waves moved by children, ravens, elementals, and the manifold agents of bloodmagic.

There are different "aspects" to the sea of death, and some aspects are want to appear as if foes. Fire and ice... ocean and sky... light and dark/earth... but if you look at what they do, these tones are symphonic, amounting to the opus of assault upon man. The force of bloodmagic uses men "dead and reborn" as agents of the sea of chaos, as waves rising to smash us in the growing tide of blood and death. And Patchface will lead a host of the dead reborn, riding upon horses of... the sea. Wilderness, magic, blood and death. Chaos.

Mel keeps her distance from Patchface, but though she fears him, she never sees him as a "foe" or tries to undermine him, much as the other forces of bloodmagic do not really conflict, when you look closely. Mel does not help Stannis to unite with the Wildings, she encourages them to bloodlet one another - she especially desires control over Mance, who is wise in the ways of fighting the forces of Ice, and would be a source of much wisdom to those in the Kingdoms who will eventually resist the Winter. Best get Mance away from Stannis...

I think Mel instinctively knows what Patchface has been placed to do to Stannis, and this is why she is content to leave Stannis' company. That's also why, although she sees him constantly in her fires, and fears him, she doesn't ever warn Stannis about Patchface... you know, Stannis, the guy who keeps Patchface in his court, babysitting his daughter. The guy she claims to council, sapping his life fire to fuel death magic, goading him to fratricide, so that he can then waste the armies of the Stag assaulting the heart of the realm. Stannis, the noblest king, is perhaps the staunchest dam in the path of the onrushing Sea. And therefore destined to walk the footsteps of the Nights King before him...

Under the sea, Stannis will play the fool for me,

It is his destiny, his destiny

i know, i know, oh oh oh

[Psyren]

Contrary to Jon's belief, Mel could have tried to oppose Patchface and been balked by the Queen. He does amuse poor Shireen after all. Or perhaps Mel could have been afraid that objecting too strenuously to a harmless fool could undermine her authority.

[Miriel]

I've probably spent more time on Patchface than on any other aspect of asoiaf, he (and Farwynd) are two sides of imho the most intriguing part of the cosmology.

Mel ...

she especially desires the death of Mance,

What do you think about Farwynd? I found the Farwynds really interesting.

I do not see Mel as desiring the death of Mance--it is her glamour that keeps him alive and allows the Lord of Bones to burn in his stead. And doesn't she speak to Stannis on Mance's behalf after Jon pleads for him? It is Stannis who wants Mance to die, and has to be persuaded (presumably by Mel) to spare him.

[I know I know]

Please forget that part about Mance "dead", I was still re-editing my post. I mean that she wants to get Mance away from Stannis, so that Mance does not help the defenders to understand the Others too well.

I believe Stannis is to lose his army into the maw of ice by mistakenly believing that Ice can be overcome with force of arms, holding a wall. He is a genius of conventional strategy, but does not understand magic. Stannis is unaware that Jon is going the melt and crash the wall under their feet, calling down the horn.

Swelling of the ranks of their assailants... reborn as "white crows"... soldiers "falling up in stead of down"... Stannis "marries fishes", finally reforged as the new Nights King, the Storm Host of Baratheon rises as the legion of the drowned, blowing the old horns of the Watch at the vanguard of the night, brought by the dry rain of Jons sad bloodmagic.

Three times.

I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

Away, away, come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.

What do you think about Farwynd? I found the Farwynds really interesting.

Agreed. ^_^

I mean, what he's describing is basically the other half of the world. Big place. Westeros is about 28% of the globe, the rest is GRRMs playground.

For all we know, the continent Farwynd describes is the Shadowlands.