Tumnas the Torpid Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Which is to say that, given the fact that, as their King, Robb was the person ultimately responsible for the lives of the men fighting for him...ANDThe fact that, whether or not he should have expected the Red Wedding, he certainly should have expected some response from the Freys, whom he needed if he wanted to get his army back North...My conclusion is that Robb bears some of the guilt over the deaths of his army. If Walder Frey is guilty of first-degree murder (many times over), then Robb Stark is guilty of criminally negligent homicide... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'll pay the iron price Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Robb is only guilty of being, young and in love with the wrong female! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Yes. He is responsible. Were you expecting opposition to the idea? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longspear Ryk Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 No one coulda expecte the red wedding.. He ate his meat an mead! No one has broken those laws besides them i believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Well, didn't he already pay the ultimate price for his folly? What, should we pile on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 Well, didn't he already pay the ultimate price for his folly? What, should we pile on? This is certainly true.I'm not trying to add insult to injury, or anything. I'm just not sure how much of the readership is on the same page I am - which is that Robb, whom I love as a character, was nevertheless guilty of serious negligence which resulted in much loss of life. I suppose I was testing the waters.@Apple: Yes, I was expecting more opposition to the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 No, you're right. He tends to be romanticized quite a bit. The same applies to Ned. I just don't see the point in lauding them when they were both fools, no matter how honorable or good-hearted they might have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsoiafFTW! Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 thinking whit your... manhood(?) is often fatal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bride of Winter Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 He's responsible his poor choices and any potential outcome he could have foreseen. But I wouldn't say that makes him responsible for the Red Wedding specifically. he gave the Freys reason to seek revenge, but nobody could have anticipated what they did.He could have lost a battle and lost just as many men as he did in the RW, maybe more. He won every battle, but instead he lost his men and his side in a massacre. So, for numbers' sake, I'd say he's just as guilty as any other commander that loses a big battle. I would never say he's responsible for the way that they died (I don't think that's what you're implying either. I'm just throwing that out there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Amoc Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Kind of an inflammatory subject to the thread.Did Robb make some poor choices as a leader of a military force? Yes.Did Robb kill his own men? No. That blame goes to the Freys, who were, ironically enough, Robb's men at the time, technically. A whole house of turncloaks. How 'bout that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*lightbringer* Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Yes he is responsible.. That makes it all the more heart breaking. Blinded by love... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Which is to say that, given the fact that, as their King, Robb was the person ultimately responsible for the lives of the men fighting for him... AND The fact that, whether or not he should have expected the Red Wedding, he certainly should have expected some response from the Freys, whom he needed if he wanted to get his army back North... My conclusion is that Robb bears some of the guilt over the deaths of his army. If Walder Frey is guilty of first-degree murder (many times over), then Robb Stark is guilty of criminally negligent homicide... I respectfully disagree. Men go to war and some don't return. The only person responsible for the murder of his men are the Freys and Boltons. These guys weren't led to slaughter by Robb, they attended a wedding and even shared meat and mead. Those guestrights usually secure your safety. Was Robb given a choice between allowing his men to go or forcing his men to stay? No. So how can he be blamed for the treachery of one his allies. With regards to Robb marrying Jeyne, it was definitely a big mistake and a slap in the face at Walder Frey. But, honestly that was used by Lord Frey as a pretense for the Red Wedding. The North certainly doesn't feel like Robb is responsible for the killing of their loved ones.You're definitely reaching with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark@heart Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Robb made the same mistake that Ned did. He believed that other Lords/people, who profess to have honor, actually do and abide by it.Nobody but GRRM saw the Red Wedding coming and I, for one, still mourn the Young Wolf.Robb was mostly awesome but mistakes were made, the biggest with the help of his mother. Leaving Roose Bolton behind to guard the rear set the stage for all that followed. Roose should have been kept close so that he couldn't have went behind Robb's back to plot with Tywin and Walder Frey. Without Roose's help the RW would not have been possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Which is to say that, given the fact that, as their King, Robb was the person ultimately responsible for the lives of the men fighting for him... AND The fact that, whether or not he should have expected the Red Wedding, he certainly should have expected some response from the Freys, whom he needed if he wanted to get his army back North... My conclusion is that Robb bears some of the guilt over the deaths of his army. If Walder Frey is guilty of first-degree murder (many times over), then Robb Stark is guilty of criminally negligent homicide... I respectfully disagree. Men go to war and some don't return. The only person responsible for the murder of his men are the Freys and Boltons. These guys weren't led to slaughter by Robb, they attended a wedding and even shared meat and mead. Those guestrights usually secure your safety. Was Robb given a choice between allowing his men to go or forcing his men to stay? No. So how can he be blamed for the treachery of one his allies. With regards to Robb marrying Jeyne, it was definitely a big mistake and a slap in the face at Walder Frey. But, honestly that was used by Lord Frey as a pretense for the Red Wedding. The North certainly doesn't feel like Robb is responsible for the killing of their loved ones.You're definitely reaching with this one.*Sorry for double-post* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanoj Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I never got the "putting her [Jeyne's] hono(u)r above his own" bit. Of course, that was just Kevan Lannister's interpretation, but Robb should have been able to see that it wasn't just his own honour he was sacrificing - he was putting the whole war effort at risk and putting the lives of all his men on the line for the honour of the girl he'd just deflowered. He could have just married her off to Whoresbane Umber and contributed a decent dowry. On the other hand, I don't really blame him specifically for the Red Wedding. He broke a marriage contract, yes, but he offered compensation in the form of the second most eligible man in his kingdom - Edmure. He certainly knew there would be consequences and perhaps even a Frey defection, but nobody this side of Dolorous Edd could have expected his whole host to be massacred when he had personally come to apologise and had invoked the Guest Right. Massively disproportionate retribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 Kind of an inflammatory subject to the thread. Did Robb make some poor choices as a leader of a military force? Yes. Did Robb kill his own men? No. That blame goes to the Freys, who were, ironically enough, Robb's men at the time, technically. A whole house of turncloaks. How 'bout that? My thought process is: Robb made a selfish decision which created the circumstances in which the Freys turned their cloaks, and a responsible ruler should have seen that he was putting lives at risk. Therefor, he is directly responsible for the deaths of his own men. No, you're right. He tends to be romanticized quite a bit. The same applies to Ned. I just don't see the point in lauding them when they were both fools, no matter how honorable or good-hearted they might have been. On the contrary, I think that they are both perfectly laudable - as human beings. Which is the reason why they both are (or were) characters that I love.It is only as leaders/rulers that they both, ultimately, failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodymime Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 No, you're right. He tends to be romanticized quite a bit. The same applies to Ned. I just don't see the point in lauding them when they were both fools, no matter how honorable or good-hearted they might have been. Is this on some other site? Because the majority opinion on here seems always willing to blame them for the treachery of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 He certainly knew there would be consequences and perhaps even a Frey defection, but nobody this side of Dolorous Edd could have expected his whole host to be massacred when he had personally come to apologise and had invoked the Guest Right. Massively disproportionate retribution. I agree with this. While he's ultimately responsible for breaking the contract, I think it's absurd for people to say that Robb should have seen the Red Wedding coming. That's why it's still a big deal — no one had dared do anything like it before, it was unprecedented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 My thought process is: Robb made a selfish decision which created the circumstances in which the Freys turned their cloaks, and a responsible ruler should have seen that he was putting lives at risk. Therefor, he is directly responsible for the deaths of his own men. On the contrary, I think that they are both perfectly laudable - as human beings. Which is the reason why they both are (or were) characters that I love. It is only as leaders/rulers that they both, ultimately, failed. Is this on some other site? Because the majority opinion on here seems always willing to blame them for the treachery of others. Here's the thing about both Robb and Ned. Them being honorable to their convictions costs people their lives. A great many people.Robb didn't want to dishonor Jeyne Westerling . . . well, that's great, say that to the 15,000 people not coming back North, left to rot in the mud, including yourself. Say that to all the families with the missing husbands and sons.As I said, nothing to be lauded over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Direwolf Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 He is responsible, yes. But I still love him. Mainly because of his incredible hotness, but there you go. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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