Female characters and and Cersei's penance walk

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

But that's the whole point.

Sure, she's misjudged the situation some (I don't think they mind her not meddling in the boy-talk all that much), but from her perspective, it's her only safe way out.

The Septon wanted to humiliate her - what he used was mental torture. And it worked. In fact, Arianne's father used quite a similar tactic, and it also left consequences on her well-being.

I'm glad you're coming around.

You keep talking about "rape" and "force", when, in reality, the only one forcing her was her own paranoia and fear, as you only just mentioned. She was never forced to do anything. You cannot equate the Penance Walk with rape, because rape is a forced act. Cersei chose it out of her own volition, though paranoia and mental instability tempered her choice.

Had she simply sat in her cell like a good little Lioness, some Lannister-friendly footpads would have sneaked her out soon enough. Then she could have gone to Tommen, and Bob's your uncle.

[Silmarien]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry... Both?

This.

[Winter's Knight]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry... Both?

Weep for it.

Guys, walking naked as a woman through a capital city in a country with a strong patriarchy and a well established rape culture as a form of punishment would break any but the strongest of women.

[Lady Storm]

I'm glad you're coming around.

You keep talking about "rape" and "force", when, in reality, the only one forcing her was her own paranoia and fear, as you only just mentioned. She was never forced to do anything. You cannot equate the Penance Walk with rape, because rape is a forced act. Cersei chose it out of her own volition, though paranoia and mental instability tempered her choice.

Had she simply sat in her cell like a good little Lioness, some Lannister-friendly footpads would have sneaked her out soon enough. Then she could have gone to Tommen, and Bob's your uncle.

It's not "free will" if you were tortured (or forced) into it.

The Septon wanted here paranoid and weak. He acted so she would crack. That doesn't make it "right" or "her fault". It makes her unstable, but not guilty.

Here's the point that I see Ser Thomas Derpingham making.

If I were the kind of person that had no qualms about taking off my gear and running about Sunspear in the buff, I'm pretty sure I could draw upon that experience and turn my proposed punishment (IE the walk) against my captors, by flaunting myself the way I do back home and turning it into a jolly farce in order to protect myself from the shame that was intended to be inflicted upon me, then you can bet your bottom dollar that it's what I'm going to do.

That was the same point I was making, on a general note. But talking specifically about Arianne, she has "Daddy doesn't love me coz I'm a woman" issues. So I don't think she's that girl.

[lilenadheas]

I'd have to disagree, words are just that, words. They have no power except for the power you as the listener gives them. If a word offends you, it's because you let it offend you, and not every word is offensive to every person, so you just have to understand what you might read as sexist, is simply a man describing features of a character that he sees present. Maybe you haven't disparaged anyone, but when you write a post, and the first response is a young lady calling you a sexist and saying how she can't believe you had the audacity to say so and so in this day in age is definitely disparaging.

But you don't know what we go through, You're just a MAN!!!

Seriously though, cannot disagree enough about words. Words create fact in the minds of people. Words have power.

Also, I don't know if you think I find it sexist that Arya is the way she is, because I really don't, so I just thought I'd put that out there.

Finally, regarding the whole, young lady telling you your opinion is sexist, is it possible that from your perspective, you do not read the lines the same way I would read it? Its not sexist, it is just social conditioning. And perhaps these women were trying to get you to see their perspective (which I would imagine is nigh on impossible, just as I could not accurately read it from a male perspective). Although you seem to have issue with the WAY they are attacking you, instead of engaging in the conversation in an accessible way, which is fair enough. It must be frustrating to have the Sexist card pulled constantly

TR:DR Gender creates parallax, forum wars ensue.

[lilenadheas]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry... Both?

fight Brashcandy.... FIGHT!! :devil:

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

It's not "free will" if you were tortured (or forced) into it.

The Septon wanted here paranoid and weak. He acted so she would crack. That doesn't make it "right" or "her fault". It makes her unstable, but not guilty.

She was already paranoid and weak. He had no need to further that, I assure you. A quick look at AFFC reveals this.

The weight of the decision rests on Cersei's shoulders. If she really were Tywin Lannister with teats, as she imagined herself, she would instead have chose to rot in Durance Vile, until some sprightly knave sprung her from the cell. Or even go directly to the chopping block, without a peep.

[David Selig]

This thread is a real train wreck. Some of the most ridiculous posts I've seen in a long time.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm glad you're coming around.

You keep talking about "rape" and "force", when, in reality, the only one forcing her was her own paranoia and fear, as you only just mentioned. She was never forced to do anything. You cannot equate the Penance Walk with rape, because rape is a forced act. Cersei chose it out of her own volition, though paranoia and mental instability tempered her choice.

Had she simply sat in her cell like a good little Lioness, some Lannister-friendly footpads would have sneaked her out soon enough. Then she could have gone to Tommen, and Bob's your uncle.

No one was going to get her out:

“Please, Uncle, take me out of here.”

“How? By force of arms?” Ser Kevan walked to the window and gazed out, frowning. “I would need to make an abbatoir of this holy place. And I do not have the men. The best part of our forces were at Riverrun with your brother. I had no time to raise up a new host.” He turned back to face her. “I have spoken with His High Holiness. He will not release you until you have atoned for your sins.”

“I have confessed.”

“Atoned, I said. Before the city. A walk—”

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

No one was going to get her out:

PFFFFFFFT, you people were saying that about Jaime and Tyrion.

You can't seriously tell me that you believed what Ser Kevan "The Fat Milksop" Lannister was saying.

Also, he was discussing the soft option of brute-forcing her out, that I already told you would not work. What Kevan needs is a master of whispers like Varys, but he's too stupid to think of such a thing (of course) so it doesn't occur to him. Wiser heads than him would prevail in the end, though.

[Lady Storm]

She was already paranoid and weak. He had no need to further that, I assure you. A quick look at AFFC reveals this.

The weight of the decision rests on Cersei's shoulders. If she really were Tywin Lannister with teats, as she imagined herself, she would instead have chose to rot in Durance Vile, until some sprightly knave sprung her from the cell. Or even go directly to the chopping block, without a peep.

First, he played on that card, and second, he used complete social isolation, a recognized and often used method of torture.

She's not making a rational decision, she's reacting to the fear, paranoia and torture used to brake her mentally.

It is not a choice, it's forced, although more indirectly than by a sword, and it's sexual harassment.

[lilenadheas]

No, now you're just mangling your own analogy, while detracting severely from its substance.

But, on the other hand, if we actually explore the ruins of the analogy you've offered, you could just sit in your cell and chill out until your rich family breaks you out. The problem is that people seriously think Cersei was going to rot in there forever, which is what Cersei thought. It was a mind game set up by the High Septon.

Everyone was convinced Jaime was going to be stuck in Riverrun, too. Or that Tyrion was actually fucked. It's like none of you have ever seen a jailbreak movie, or read a jailbreak novel. There are numerous jailbreaking incidents in ASOIAF, too. Cersei simply fell prey to raw fear and panic, mostly thanks to the High Sparrow's games.

I'm not saying House Lannister would have enacted war upon the Faith Militant. Just that they would send Varys, perhaps with a crossbow. That way, Cersei could both spring free from her prison, and give the High Sparrow something in his bowels to think about.

Ah, the power of hindsight. Silly Cersei

[Malgarroth]

But you don't know what we go through, You're just a MAN!!!

Seriously though, cannot disagree enough about words. Words create fact in the minds of people. Words have power.

Also, I don't know if you think I find it sexist that Arya is the way she is, because I really don't, so I just thought I'd put that out there.

Finally, regarding the whole, young lady telling you your opinion is sexist, is it possible that from your perspective, you do not read the lines the same way I would read it? Its not sexist, it is just social conditioning. And perhaps these women were trying to get you to see their perspective (which I would imagine is nigh on impossible, just as I could not accurately read it from a male perspective). Although you seem to have issue with the WAY they are attacking you, instead of engaging in the conversation in an accessible way, which is fair enough. It must be frustrating to have the Sexist card pulled constantly

TR:DR Gender creates parallax, forum wars ensue.

I disagree with you saying that we lack empathy. Would the chapters from a female perspective resonate with us that way that they do if we did lack it? I doubt it.

The thing is that we all (male or female) can put ourselves in the shoes of others, regardless of gender, and to be frank I find it insulting that you would insinuate otherwise.

A lot of what I'm hearing is "You can't express what you think various female characters would do, because you're not one of us."

Just because you cant look at things from a male perspective, don't tar everyone with the same brush.

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

First, he played on that card, and second, he used complete social isolation, a recognized and often used method of torture.

She's not making a rational decision, she's reacting to the fear, paranoia and torture used to brake her mentally.

It is not a choice, it's forced, although more indirectly than by a sword, and it's sexual harassment.

Offering a trial by seven and then possible execution is forcing one's hand.

Merely chilling out in a cell isn't forcing one's hand, or we would all be crying over how poor Ser Onions was 'forced' and 'sexually harassed' because he was put in a box for a chapter or two.

[Castel]

First, he played on that card, and second, he used complete social isolation, a recognized and often used method of torture.

She's not making a rational decision, she's reacting to the fear, paranoia and torture used to brake her mentally.

It is not a choice, it's forced, although more indirectly than by a sword, and it's sexual harassment.

This. It pretty much is torture, I think that the Stasi used it, and it's being done to Manning right now. It may seem cleaner than we associate with the word, but it's terrible. Cersei was probably doing whatever she could to get out of there. That sort of thing breaks a person down, we have no idea how Tywin would have reacted in the long term.

Merely chilling out in a cell isn't forcing one's hand, or we would all be crying over how poor Ser Onions was 'forced' and 'sexually harassed' because he was put in a box for a chapter or two.

Davos wasn't subjected to constant sleep deprivation and isolation. It's not even similar.

[brashcandy]

fight Brashcandy.... FIGHT!! :devil:

I am rendered powerless in the face of such ignorance. Trainwreck indeed, David.

[Malgarroth]

Offering a trial by seven and then possible execution is forcing one's hand.

Merely chilling out in a cell isn't forcing one's hand, or we would all be crying over how poor Ser Onions was 'forced' and 'sexually harassed' because he was put in a box for a chapter or two.

But you can't sexually harass a man, we always want it, all the time, from everyone. :bang:

[Malgarroth]

I am rendered powerless in the face of such ignorance. Trainwreck indeed, David.

Please do tell me exactly what you think is "ignorant".

[Winter's Knight]

I am rendered powerless in the face of such ignorance. Trainwreck indeed, David.

Where's QCI when you need her eh?

:bang:

[lilenadheas]

I disagree with you saying that we lack empathy. Would the chapters from a female perspective resonate with us that way that they do if we did lack it? I doubt it.

The thing is that we can put ourselves in the shoes of others, regardless of gender, and to be frank I find it insulting that you would insinuate otherwise.

A lot of what I'm hearing is "You can't express what you think various female characters would do, because you're not one of us."

Just because you cant look at things from a male perspective, don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I did not say you could not feel empathy for a female character? That would be stupid, and I certainly did not insinuate it. I was merely offering a perspective on the reasons people are unable to engage in a rational discussion of characters in relation to gender. Each side is coming from a completely different perspective, and lack the patience/ability/whatever to be completely impartial, because someone is always going to take offence and misconstrue words.

Of course you can put yourself in the shoes of other characters, but my point was that the shoes would automatically alter in small ways. I said I could not ACCURATELY read from a male perspective, as in down to the last detail kind of thing.