R+L=J v.27

[King Doug]

Actually, the ToJ is in the Prince's Pass, which, curiously, is located at the exact point between Starfall and Summerhall. So, maybe, the fact that it lies between the place Rhaegar was so obsessed with and the home to his best friend suggests that Rhaegar himself found it and thought to take Lyanna there when he "kidnapped" her.

Yea I agree. Do we know if it was built for Rhaegar because he liked the location? Or was it a really old tower? I figure it had to be really old or built really quickly and somewhat crudely if Ned and Howland Reed could take it down themselves for the cairns.

[Elric the White Wolf]

5. Jon looks exactly like Ned.

Question concerning this -- isn't Jon said to resemble Arya, who -- in turn -- is said to resemble Lyanna? I know the other Stark children have the Tully looks.

[Elric the White Wolf]

I just want answers. :wideeyed:

Me too. Not sure I can take many more years of waiting...

[GreenSeeress]

I believe in R+L = J, but I am not convinced that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. We just don't know, and the driving motivation for Rhaegar's desire for another child was not necessarily to produce a "spare" heir to the throne. He wanted to produce the third head of the dragon -- did the third head have to be a legitimate heir? Weren't the Blackfyres dragons too? Rhaegar may have assumed that he would have plenty of time to legitimize Jon after he (Rhaegar) became king, just as the Great Bastards had been legitimized by Aegon the Unworthy. Rhaegar thought, at least when Jon was conceived, that he would survive the war, perhaps even planning to depose Aerys and assume the throne without waiting for his father to die.

Yes, the prophecy foretold of a PRINCE That Was Promised, but he needn't have been born a legitimate prince -- he might have been legitimized after his father's accession. Then of course Robert made that impossible.

Ned would have known that Robert would perceive even the infant bastard Jon to be a threat to his crown, and Lyanna would have known it too. After all, by the time Lyanna gave birth, Rhaegar was dead, and possibly Rhaenys and Aegon/Pretender Aegon too. So no hope of the prophecy being fulfilled, since the first two heads of the dragon were gone, and no hope of putting Jon on the throne. All Lyanna would have wanted Ned to promise was that her baby be kept safe. And Ned's wisdom in keeping Jon's identity a secret was confirmed when, after Jon had gone off to the Wall, Robert wanted to have Dany assassinated as soon as he learned she was married and pregnant. Ned resigned as Hand in protest, and must have thought to himself, "Now is not the time to write that letter to Jon about his true parentage," if he ever considered writing it at all.

[Teal'c]

Question concerning this -- isn't Jon said to resemble Arya, who -- in turn -- is said to resemble Lyanna? I know the other Stark children have the Tully looks.

Jon, Ned, Arya, and Lyanna all look like eachother.

[Elric the White Wolf]

Frankly, I wouldn't have told him, either, for various reasons. Safety, his own and everyone else's involved, and also for his mental health. He's fourteen, pretty self-entitled and already embittered enough over being a bastard - the secret would poison his soul and possibly even drove him to something very rash and unwise. With these two reasons combined, I'd say that Jon's right is effectively overriden by the right of the rest of the Westeros not to be bothered by another civil war (yeah, ironically, it started, anyway)

Exactly, excellently put. I wonder if Ned was thinking of the Wall as a "safe zone" in case Jon did discover the truth (or was told the truth by say Benjen). The Wall, in Ned's mind, could act as a buffer, a sort of neutral zone to protect Jon if the truth got out and also to allow Jon some space (literally and figuratively) to figure out what to do with himself if he discovered that he was in fact Jon Targaryen, trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and heir to the throne. Jon would also be protected as a man of the NW from the immediate wrath of King Robert if word got out.

[Bushido]

@lady octarina Oh,I completely forgot that! In my mind I have this vast marshes,even though I know red mountains are in vicinity.

Still,it is pretty western and close to Starfall.

I just googled it,Fowlers are wardens of Prince's Pass... They must have been very careful,then.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

Question concerning this -- isn't Jon said to resemble Arya, who -- in turn -- is said to resemble Lyanna? I know the other Stark children have the Tully looks.

First post, but doesn't Jon have the build of Rhaegar as well? In Bran's first chapter he says of Robb, "He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother's coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun," which suggests that Robb has the build of Ned and the coloring of Catelyn while with Jon Bran states,"Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." Since Jon has the coloring of the Starks but not the muscular shape of Robb can this not mean that he does have physical characteristics from Rhaegar except they're less prominent because he doesn't have the coloring of the Targaryens(which is the dead give away) and there's no one who knew Rhaegar well enough around or paying enough attention to Jon to point out these similarities?

I also have another question regarding Ned and Jon which regards whether or not he sees Jon only in relation to Lyanna and himself. I believe somewhere someone noted how Ned thought of Jon's face and believed he looked just like him which makes me wonder if when Ned looks at Jon he only sees Lyanna because he doesn't think of how slender Jon is instead of robust or how sullen he can be or how silent and intense he is while Lyanna( at least from the glimpses we've seen of her) is more akin to the wild wolf instead of the silent one? Is Ned perhaps seeing things only as he wants to instead of the full picture, so that in denial he can preserve the only living thing that remains of his sister?

[Sapphire]

GreenSeeress, I used to think the same, but it's curious that the three KG were so adamant about holding their ground instead of following the assumed king Viserys. With the survival of the Targaryen dynasty on the line, I don't think they'd stick around for a mere bastard.

Even worse: what if we learn the whole truth in TWoW and it isn't half as exciting as we want the reveal to be? This thought alone almost makes me abandon this thread just to be able to actually feel something when I read those pages by Martin. :eek:

Don't even! After almost two decades for readers to analyze and even a lot of in-story curiosity, GRRM better still have some tricks up his sleeve.

[corbon]

Your responses are quite appropriate, but for the sake of argument (and fun), I would like to respond:

7. My counter-argument is that Ned would not think of Jon as a bastard if he really was the product of R + L = J.

8. I have to disagree that it's the subject of Jon that got Ned upset. If you recall, Catelyn subsequently brought up Jon all the time to Ned, about how she wanted Ned to send him away. But Ned's reaction to Catelyn talking about Jon and Ashara together made her afraid for the one and only time in their marriage. As such, I would argue that it was the subject of Ashara that got Ned upset.

9. One point all supporters of R + L =J make is the fact that Ned never thinks of Jon as his son at all in his POV chapters. Using this logic, I was just arguing that at no point does Ned think of Jon as the true heir, which you would expect would have crossed Ned's mind at some point.

7. First, if R+L were married, Ned would not necessarily know. I doubt Lyanna had that on her mind as she lay dying, trying to tell Ned about her marriage. I rather think she was more worried about her baby's safety than his legitimacy. Second, when you are in a conspiracy, you have to train yourself to think the conspiracy, most of the time at least. So even if Ned knew (which I greatly doubt) he would still train hmself to think of Jon as a bastard since that is what he was representing to the world.

8. Read it. Its very clear that it is the subject of Jon's origins that gets Ned riled. Ashara is basically an afterthought only of interest in getting at the source of the rumours that Catelyn heard so he can shut the source down too. Its not "don't ever speak that name" its "never ask me about Jon ('s origins)" and "And now I will learn where you heard that name.

Catelyn brought up Jon's future (and/or current situation) many other times, but never again his past.

Sorry, your arguments are misfounded and simply wrong IMO.

9. As 7, he may not even be aware of this, and if he was, he certainly would avoid such thoughts yunless he was planning to support Jon overthrowing Robert later, which I cannot believe.

No, even if Ned knew Jon was the true Targaryen heir, he would (i am sure) believe that the time of the Targaryen dynasty has passed and the Baratheon's are the Kings now and in the future. True Targaryen heir or not, Jon's future does not lie connected to the iron throne in Ned's mind I believe.

That is a very reasonable explanation.

In fact, the fear that Robert would realize that Ned lied to him about Wylla and start asking too many questions was one of the arguments I used when I tried to argue N + A =J in another post.

Basically, I said that the reason Ned did not tell Catelyn and Jon the truth about Ashara was due to the fact that he was so afraid it would get back to Robert, who would then wonder why Ned had lied to him about Wylla. As you imply in your post, the last think Ned wanted was Robert asking too many questions.

No chance. The Ned + Ashara story was known around the 7 kingdoms - even Cersei knew it.

I think Robert just thought he knew better. Ned + Ashara is based on Ned coming awa from Starfall with a baby and Ashara suiciding, but Robert knows Ned personally like no one else in westeros at that time, and 'knows' Ned would never dishonour a noblewoman like that. Slip his honour with a peasant girl? Possible, just once. Dishonour a noblewoman? Not Ned Stark, not ever.

I think there's still at least one huge puzzle piece missing as far as the Rhaegar & Lyanna story goes. We know nothing :P

Lyanna must have known what it would mean to go with Rhaegar when he "abducted" her. I also assume she went willingly, but why didn't she inform her family after the deed was done? If Rhaegar married her (and again I assume he did) and did not hold her captive she must have had so much as a raven at her disposal. She knew her father and brothers and their temperament. Why leave them fearing for her well-being? There must be a reason for all the secrecy.

What secrecy? We simply don't know what anyone else knew (or didn't) because we've never heard from them.

Rickard didn't react at all to Lyanna's "kidnap". Did he have a message from her? If he did, how would we know?

Brandon went nuts. But what did he know, was it true or not and how did he find it out? We have no idea about any of these.

I've always wondered...is there such a thing as divorce in Westeros?

There seems to be annulment at least.

Also, I know a couple of people have mentioned that they believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed, and therefore Jon would be in the line of succession. I was just wondering if there was any evidence for this, or is it just a presumption based on the general likelihood that this would have taken place?

As noted, the most significant eveidence, and it is very very strong evidence, is the 3 KG at the ToJ.

They are famous for keeping their vows and their honour, and they indicated to Ned in the converstaion that the were keeping their vows.

Yet their primary vow is to protect the King, and one KG must be with the King at all times. But they made no effort to een send one of their number to Viserys. So plainly they do not believe Viserys was the King. Since they know Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead, that leaves only an unknown brother between Rhaegar and Viserys (hah!) or another legitmate son of Rhaegar, or Aegon not being dead and being at ToJ so that they are with him. Those are the only possible options. Therefore it is clear that either Aegon or a younger brother are at ToJ.

What makes me wonder is how would Kingsguard know what is happening in King's Landing. Data,from whom,how? Raven? Sent by who? So many questions...

ToJ is probably around a month after KL. Ned has been around at Kl for the initial cleanup, then ridden south and releived Storms End and taken in the 'surrender' of Mace Tyrell etc, and only then ridden further south with a secret small party to ToJ.

There is plenty of time for ToJ to have been updated by raven or even by personal messengers, since the sack of KL. In fact I imagine the news of the sack of KL spread around the whole 7 kingdoms very very quickly. Basically everyone needs to knows that the Targaryens are destroyed and King Bob is in charge now and the fighting can stop. You can easily picture, for example, ravens going to every major castle in the 7 kingdoms within days, including Starfall, and a message reaching ToJ from Starfall within a week or so of that.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

The ironic twist here is that Jon looks to be fulfilling the prophecy, not as the heir to that damned Iron Throne, but as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

Ned kept him holed up at Winterfell and let him go off to take the Black without revealing his identity. And lo and behold, through a series of unexpected events, Jon is in charge of the Wall, and soon comes, over or around or through that Wall, the worst threat the realm has known.

The advice that Davos gave to Stannis applies here to Jon as well: win the realm by defending the realm.

Exactly.

The main reason for this belief are the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, for their priority is always to protect the king, then the rest of the royal family. They knew Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, so they should have gone to Dragonstone to protect Viserys; since they didn't go there, it means Jon was more important, and the only way he would be more important was if he was the king, but he could only be the king if Rhaegar took Lyanna as second wife, since there wasn't any way he could have been legitimized, for he was born around the time Aerys died.

While I think this is a good explanation. I just don't see it adding up.

The events at the Trident occurred first (Rhaegar's death), then the sack of King's landing (Aerys & Aegon's death), then the Tower of Joy. And since they weren't present at the first two, it would seem they had been at the ToJ the entire time. Why?

They are said to protect royal family first, most importantly the king. So instead of going with Rhaegar or being by the king's side, their first priority is to stay by Lyanna's side? And this action is grounded solely in vow? I just don't know. We know that Dayne and Rhaegar were good friends. I just feel there is more to it. Lyanna only became first priority after the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. So why stay during those events? While two princes and a king are getting killed, you stay your hand to protect an unborn child.

I think as Kingsguard they would have been very confused and conflicted about this decision. Especially considering one is the Lord Commander and another is rumored to be the best sword in the realm. I think a Kingsguard's vow would say their first priority would have been to the king, then his oldest son.

Maybe someone can explain it to me. But I definitely think there was more going on there then just a vow to protect the royal family. I'm sure it was easy to convince Dayne to stay and help, because of their friendship, but the LC as well? and Whent?

[Dragonfish]

While I think this is a good explanation. I just don't see it adding up.

The events at the Trident occurred first (Rhaegar's death), then the sack of King's landing (Aerys & Aegon's death), then the Tower of Joy. And since they weren't present at the first two, it would seem they had been at the ToJ the entire time. Why?

They are said to protect royal family first, most importantly the king. So instead of going with Rhaegar or being by the king's side, their first priority is to stay by Lyanna's side? And this action is grounded solely in vow? I just don't know. We know that Dayne and Rhaegar were good friends. I just feel there is more to it. Lyanna only became first priority after the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. So why stay during those events? While two princes and a king are getting killed, you stay your hand to protect an unborn child.

I think as Kingsguard they would have been very confused and conflicted about this decision. Especially considering one is the Lord Commander and another is rumored to be the best sword in the realm. I think a Kingsguard's vow would say their first priority would have been to the king, then his oldest son.

Maybe someone can explain it to me. But I definitely think there was more going on there then just a vow to protect the royal family. I'm sure it was easy to convince Dayne to stay and help, because of their friendship, but the LC as well? and Whent as well?

The Kingsguard's presence at the ToJ before the Trident can easily be explained by the fact that they were ordered to stay there by Rhaegar. Such an order would not have been in conflict with their first duty to protect the king, because the king had other Kingsguard members with him. What is fishy is that the Kingsguard stayed at the tower after the Sack, when Viserys, who ought to have been their new king, was without Kingsguard protection. IMO, the best explanation for their actions here is that they knew the true king was in that tower.

[Jem]

While I think this is a good explanation. I just don't see it adding up.

The events at the Trident occurred first (Rhaegar's death), then the sack of King's landing (Aerys & Aegon's death), then the Tower of Joy. And since they weren't present at the first two, it would seem they had been at the ToJ the entire time. Why?

They are said to protect royal family first, most importantly the king. So instead of going with Rhaegar or being by the king's side, their first priority is to stay by Lyanna's side? And this action is grounded solely in vow? I just don't know. We know that Dayne and Rhaegar were good friends. I just feel there is more to it. Lyanna only became first priority after the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. So why stay during those events? While two princes and a king are getting killed, you stay your hand to protect an unborn child.

I think as Kingsguard they would have been very confused and conflicted about this decision. Especially considering one is the Lord Commander and another is rumored to be the best sword in the realm. I think a Kingsguard's vow would say their first priority would have been to the king, then his oldest son.

Maybe someone can explain it to me. But I definitely think there was more going on there then just a vow to protect the royal family. I'm sure it was easy to convince Dayne to stay and help, because of their friendship, but the LC as well? and Whent as well?

But Aerys had Jaime and Rhaegar had Darry, Martell and Selmy - so the king and his heir were not unprotected. If Aerys or Rhaegar ordered the 3KG to stay at the ToJ, then they have no real cause to question this order.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

So after the Sack, we basically have the new king, the queen, and her unborn child, all with no Kingsguard. And a Stark woman with Rhaegar's bastard child being protected by three. And three of the best might I add. Something seems to be missing to me. Even assuming that they were married, which I don't know if I agree with, why wouldn't at least one of them be sent with Rhaella?

When Ned showed up and talked with them about what happened, they seemed to show no sign of worry. Worry that maybe they should have disobeyed and helped the king, or the prince. If the king dies, then the Kingsguard has ultimately failed. They had to have had some great trust in Rhaegar to obey his command. To stay with Lyanna above all others. To be unmoved by despite the changing circumstances.

I think there had to be some sort of favoritism towards Rhaegar, otherwise why would the king himself, along with his family, be protected by only one man? And a newbie at that? Hightower or Dayne, I could see that. But only Jaime?

I don't really disagree with what has been said, I'm just curious to see what people will come up with. I just can't see a vow/honor being the sole reason why three of the best Kingsguard stayed at the ToJ.

[Jem]

So after the Sack, we basically have the new king, the queen, and her unborn child, all with no Kingsguard. And a Stark woman with Rhaegar's bastard child being protected by three. And three of the best might I add. Something seems to be missing to me. Even assuming that they were married, which I don't know if I agree with, why wouldn't at least one of them be sent with Rhaella?

When Ned showed up and talked with them about what happened, they seemed to show no sign of worry. Worry that maybe they should have disobeyed and helped the king, or the prince. If the king dies, then the Kingsguard has ultimately failed. They had to have had some great trust in Rhaegar to obey his command. To stay with Lyanna above all others. To be unmoved by despite the changing circumstances.

I think there had to be some sort of favoritism towards Rhaegar, otherwise why would the king himself, along with his family, be protected by only one man? And a newbie at that? Hightower or Dayne, I could see that. But only Jaime?

I don't really disagree with what has been said, I'm just curious to see what people will come up with. I just can't see a vow/honor being the sole reason why three of the best Kingsguard stayed at the ToJ.

The thing that is missing is that you are thinking of Jon as a bastard. Think of him has Rhaegar's legitimate heir and everything else will fall into place.

[Dragonfish]

So after the Sack, we basically have the new king, the queen, and her unborn child, all with no Kingsguard. And a Stark woman with Rhaegar's bastard child being protected by three. And three of the best might I add. Something seems to be missing to me. Even assuming that they were married, which I don't know if I agree with, why wouldn't at least one of them be sent with Rhaella?

The Kingsguard don't have a duty to guard the rest of the royal family, only the king. They only guard the other members of the royal family when the king orders them to.

When Ned showed up and talked with them about what happened, they seemed to show no sign of worry. Worry that maybe they should have disobeyed and helped the king, or the prince. If the king dies, then the Kingsguard has ultimately failed. They had to have had some great trust in Rhaegar to obey his command. To stay with Lyanna above all others. To be unmoved by despite the changing circumstances.

I think there had to be some sort of favoritism towards Rhaegar, otherwise why would the king himself, along with his family, be protected by only one man? And a newbie at that? Hightower or Dayne, I could see that. But only Jaime?

The Red Keep would have been guarded by four Kingsguard when Dayne, Hightower, and Whent were ordered to stay by Rhaegar. In addition, the three Kingsguard on the Trident were, in some sense, protecting the king by fighting. So I don't think it's accurate to say that only one man was guarding the king.

[Sapphire]

The thing that is missing is that you are thinking of Jon as a bastard. Think of him has Rhaegar's legitimate heir and everything else will fall into place.

:agree: Hightower, Dayne and Whent stayed with Lyanna because they knew Rhaegar was accompanied by three KG to the Trident and the king kept Jaime for himself. The events of the Trident and the sack of KL must of happened in quick succession and by the time they got the news, the rightful king was in their protection. So while I imagine they eventually wanted to secure Viserys too, at the moment it was more important to keep Jon in seclusion.

[Alia of the knife]

I think the question of protection is not so much how many KG were present at the Red Keep, but who of the KG.

And hands down, Rhaegar left the BEST of the KG for Lyanna and their unborn child.

[Dragonfish]

I think the question of protection is not so much how many KG were present at the Red Keep, but who of the KG.

And hands down, Rhaegar left the BEST of the KG for Lyanna and their unborn child.

I don't know about that. Barristan was probably among the best of the Kingsguard, but he wasn't ordered to the ToJ. And I don't recall anything about Whent's fighting prowess as compared to the other Kingsguard members.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

The thing that is missing is that you are thinking of Jon as a bastard. Think of him has Rhaegar's legitimate heir and everything else will fall into place.

Ok. But for speculation sake, how could these events be explained without thinking of Jon as a legitimate heir, but rather thinking of him as a bastard? Are there any other explanations? There seems to be no evidence that they got married, so I don't know if I'm quick to jump in that boat.

The Kingsguard don't have a duty to guard the rest of the royal family, only the king. They only guard the other members of the royal family when the king orders them to.

So doesn't this mean that they would only take orders from the king? Therefore Rhaegar telling them to protect Lyanna would be against their duty. Their priority is with the king, and he wasn't dead when they went to the ToJ, and Rhaegar wasn't king either. They take orders from the king, not the royal family. And I highly doubt Aerys ordered them to protect Lyanna.