R+L=J v.27

[Dragonfish]

So doesn't this mean that they would only take orders from the king? Therefore Rhaegar telling them to protect Lyanna would be against their duty. Their priority is with the king, and he wasn't dead when they went to the ToJ, and Rhaegar wasn't king either. They take orders from the king, not the royal family. And I highly doubt Aerys ordered them to protect Lyanna.

If Aerys had extended Kingsguard protection to Rhaegar, then presumably they would have had to follow Rhaegar's orders as well.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't know about that. Barristan was probably among the best of the Kingsguard, but he wasn't ordered to the ToJ. And I don't recall anything about Whent's fighting prowess as compared to the other Kingsguard members.

I think it's alluded to that Selmy was not trusted as much by Rhaegar, and may have been "on the outside looking in."

As for the others, though Dumas's "The Three Musketeers" has been sadly trivialized, there is I think an analogy between the three KG and Dumas story that fits.

All very different men, but equally lethal.

Dayne/Athos: Of Noble Origin and high Ideals

Hightower/Porthos: Flamboyant character and larger than life.

Whent/Aramis: Strange with refined manners, an enigmatic past, and dark humor with ties to haunted Harrenhal.

If this analogy fits, then the chemistry that binds the three make for a fairly lethal combination.

[Jem]

Ok. But for speculation sake, how could these events be explained without thinking of Jon as a legitimate heir, but rather thinking of him as a bastard? Are there any other explanations? There seems to be no evidence that they got married, so I don't know if I'm quick to jump in that boat.

So doesn't this mean that they would only take orders from the king? Therefore Rhaegar telling them to protect Lyanna would be against their duty. Their priority is with the king, and he wasn't dead when they went to the ToJ, and Rhaegar wasn't king either. They take orders from the king, not the royal family. And I highly doubt Aerys ordered them to protect Lyanna.

The evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married is that the KG were protecting someone at the ToJ (ie presumably Jon) and they would only do that if Jon was legitimate.

As for who the KG take orders from and under what circumstances we don't really know. Officially they take their command from the king, but as Rhaegar was a grown man (and an active participant in the war), presumably he would have some authority over them too. But in any case we don't know who gave the 3KG their orders and what specifically their orders were. If you want to argue that only Aerys was allowed to give the KG orders, then perhaps things went like this: Aerys orders the 3KG to find Rhaegar and get him to the battle at any cost. They find Rhaegar and he says - I'm not leaving Lyanna unless you three guys stay here to protect her. Aerys did say to fetch Rhaegar at any cost, and the cost is the 3KG stay with Lyanna.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I believe they were married, because of the way the characters have been described in the novels. I also believe that Elia knew about everything.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

If you want to argue that only Aerys was allowed to give the KG orders, then perhaps things went like this: Aerys orders the 3KG to find Rhaegar and get him to the battle at any cost. They find Rhaegar and he says - I'm not leaving Lyanna unless you three guys stay here to protect her. Aerys did say to fetch Rhaegar at any cost, and the cost is the 3KG stay with Lyanna.

Point well made. Incredibly well made actually. I have absolutely no quarrel with that post. It seems sound to me.

But the situation you described reminds me a lot of Arya tricking Jaqen to help her by saying his own name for the 3rd kill. ha

[Dr. Pepper]

I think that what partly influenced Jon's choice, though, was that he didn't really fit, if you know what I mean. Of course, he thought of the night's watch as an honourable place to be in, as an elite force, but I believe his choice was partly (and probably unconsciously) due to the fact that there was really nothing else he could do. He couldn't inherit Winterfell and become a lord, couldn't go to King's Landing with his father. Catelyn didn't even want him...

Maybe if he had known the truth, things would have been different. Or maybe he would have decided the same... who knows?

At least, this is what I think ^_^

Well yeah, Jon didn't fit. Arya didn't feel like she fit in as well. The thing is, Jon wouldn't have fit in even if he actually was Ned Stark's bastard. Ned Stark wanted to raise Jon as his son, he adopted him as such. Ned wanted Jon to make decisions based on being his son, not based on being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Jon had plenty of options. He could have been a castellan, could have talked Robb into letting him stay as his advisor or protector, could have gone off to become a knight (some of his role models were knights, after all), could have married Jeyne Poole and become a steward of a keep. He had plenty of options, probably more options than the legitimate Stark children had considering Robb's only option was to be Lord of Winterfell, Sansa and Arya were to be married to other lords and Bran and Rickon would be spare heirs until Robb married. He chose the Night's Watch. It was only in recent times that the NW devolved into a virtual labor camp for convicts. Even still, it continues to be an honorable profession for people in the North, especially for the Starks. Would Jon's choice have changed if Ned suddenly destroyed the identity he spent 14 years building? Perhaps. That's why adoptive parents generally try to stay consistent. Either they tell them from a young age that they were adopted, wait until they are much older and settled in their identity and have already made their big life decisions, or don't tell them at all. For obvious reasons, Ned wasn't going to share that information with Jon or anyone when he was still young and Jon wasn't exactly settled in his identity when he went off to the wall.

I think Ned's decision to find the truth about Cersei's children was completely honorable. Robert did not know the truth concerning Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, unlike Ned and Jon. The situations are different, and therefore cannot be compared, IMO.

Ned raising Jon as his own was only to protect Jon. I feel that Ned planned to tell Jon the truth of his parentage, but died before he was able to do so. I also feel that it saddens Ned that Jon has had to live the life of a bastard.

I think they can be compared. Ned didn't want people delving into the genetic origin of Jon just as Cersei didn't want people delving into the genetic origin of her children.

I think it does sadden Ned that the life of a bastard can be so difficult. I think he would have been saddened by Jon's plight even if Jon was actually the bastard of Ned and some woman named Wylla.

[corbon]

Point well made. Incredibly well made actually. I have absolutely no quarrel with that post. It seems sound to me.

But the situation you described reminds me a lot of Arya tricking Jaqen to help her by saying his own name for the 3rd kill.

It doesn't even need to be a trick. Rhaegar is being made the CiC, that is why Hightower has been sent to find him. That alone would probably make Hightower agree to stay behind if Rhaegar asked - the King still has 4/7 KG after all, so they aren't failing their vows or anything at that stage.

I don't see any other explanation for the KG at ToJ (except not-really-dead-Aegon being there secretly, which I find highly unlikely given Lyannas bed-of-blood and all the other clues about Jon).

If Viserys is the Targaryen King, then one of them must be sent to Viserys immediately they know Viserys has no KG (which they appear to know before Ned arrives, and at very least Ned appears to be offering them to go to Viserys, but they are sure their vows are here, not with Viserys). That is their primary vow.

I cannot see any option therefore, except that Viserys is not King in their eyes, which means either Aegon is alive and at ToJ or Jon is legitimate and at ToJ. Anything else is them ignoring their primary vow.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I think they can be compared. Ned didn't want people delving into the genetic origin of Jon just as Cersei didn't want people delving into the genetic origin of her children.

I think it does sadden Ned that the life of a bastard can be so difficult. I think he would have been saddened by Jon's plight even if Jon was actually the bastard of Ned and some woman named Wylla.

I must disagree.

Ned was protecting Jon, and was not attempting to place him on the throne, while also labeling him a bastard. He was doing everything in his power to protect Jon, and keep him as uninteresting as possible. If Cersei was truly trying to protect her children she should have taken them away from King's Landing, instead she was scheming to put her bastards on the throne. Meanwhile, Robert mistakenly believes he has legitimate children, but he is being deceived. If Robert knew the truth, and still accepted them...I could understand, but he is totally oblivious. Plus, this creates a horrible mess in terms of Robert's heir.

If I had a friend that mistakenly thought his children were his own, and I said nothing because he had accepted the children....I would consider myself a horrible friend/human being. That would be completely dishonorable.

[FrozenFire3]

If some of the most important and valiant members of the KG stayed with Lyanna at the ToJ, there was certainly a reason. Firstly Rhaegar ordered them so, secondly he may have believed Jon to be the prince that was promised. This made him a priority in his eyes over everyone else (if indeed he thought so).

[Dr. Pepper]

I must disagree.

Ned was protecting Jon, and was not attempting to place him on the throne, while also labeling him a bastard. He was doing everything in his power to protect Jon, and keep him as uninteresting as possible. If Cersei was truly trying to protect her children she should have taken them away from King's Landing, instead she was scheming to put her bastards on the throne. Meanwhile, Robert mistakenly believes he has legitimate children, but he is being deceived. If Robert knew the truth, and still accepted them...I could understand, but he is totally oblivious. Plus, this creates a horrible mess in terms of Robert's heir.

If I had a friend that mistakenly thought his children were his own, and I said nothing because he had accepted the children....I would consider myself a horrible friend/human being. That would be completely dishonorable.

I wrote, "I think they can be compared. Ned didn't want people delving into the genetic origin of Jon just as Cersei didn't want people delving into the genetic origin of her children." This was in response to someone saying that they cannot be compared when they definitely can. Ned has been in the same position as Cersei. She's passing off her kids as something they are not while Ned is passing of Jon as something he is not.

[Lady Octarina]

7. First, if R+L were married, Ned would not necessarily know. I doubt Lyanna had that on her mind as she lay dying, trying to tell Ned about her marriage. I rather think she was more worried about her baby's safety than his legitimacy. Second, when you are in a conspiracy, you have to train yourself to think the conspiracy, most of the time at least. So even if Ned knew (which I greatly doubt) he would still train hmself to think of Jon as a bastard since that is what he was representing to the world.

I'm sorry, corbon, but I don't understand how you can defend that Ned didn't know, wasn't even suspicious that Jon was Rhaegar's heir when right after you say:

As noted, the most significant eveidence, and it is very very strong evidence, is the 3 KG at the ToJ.

They are famous for keeping their vows and their honour, and they indicated to Ned in the converstaion that the were keeping their vows.

Yet their primary vow is to protect the King, and one KG must be with the King at all times. But they made no effort to een send one of their number to Viserys. So plainly they do not believe Viserys was the King. Since they know Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead, that leaves only an unknown brother between Rhaegar and Viserys (hah!) or another legitmate son of Rhaegar, or Aegon not being dead and being at ToJ so that they are with him. Those are the only possible options. Therefore it is clear that either Aegon or a younger brother are at ToJ.

I mean, if we can get to the conclusion that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married from the 3KG's attitude at the ToJ, I'm sure that so could Ned, even if he didn't think Jon had a claim to the throne now that Robert won.

I think it's alluded to that Selmy was not trusted as much by Rhaegar, and may have been "on the outside looking in."

As for the others, though Dumas's "The Three Musketeers" has been sadly trivialized, there is I think an analogy between the three KG and Dumas story that fits.

All very different men, but equally lethal.

Dayne/Athos: Of Noble Origin and high Ideals

Hightower/Porthos: Flamboyant character and larger than life.

Whent/Aramis: Stange with refined manners, an enigmatic past, and dark humor with ties to haunted Harrenhal.

If this analogy fits, then the chemistry that binds the three make for a fairly lethal combination.

lol

I loved this! I'm not sure how much I like the idea of Arthur as a drunkard and When as a priest, though. :P

[Budj]

You are all also forgetting that it is quite possible that the KG already recognized Rhaegar as their King over Aerys. He had proven to be unfit...the coupe may have already started for Rhaegar to replace his father. No proof, completely speculation, but fits the order of events...

[kg1982]

I think that both Whent and Dayne were in on the whole "kidnapping" Lyanna as well as the whole bloodless coup that Rhaegar was planning. Arthur was Rhaegar's bestie and the Whents were the ones who hosted the tourney at Harrenhal. And I do believe that the tourney was a cover for Rhaegar's plots.

Hightower and likely one other KG (Darry probably) were sent to find Rhaegar so that he could put down the rebellion. Both are much more members of the old guard as mentioned in Jaime's memories; however, the Starks' deaths might have led them to question their blind obedience like what Barristan is facing in Meereen.

[Lady Octarina]

I think that both Whent and Dayne were in on the whole "kidnapping" Lyanna as well as the whole bloodless coup that Rhaegar was planning. Arthur was Rhaegar's bestie and the Whents were the ones who hosted the tourney at Harrenhal. And I do believe that the tourney was a cover for Rhaegar's plots.

I like this idea, but could you elaborate on the part where the tourney was a cover for Rhaegar's plans? You mean his plans of dethroning Aerys, not of kidnapping Lyanna, right? But then, if he had been planning a revolution for that long with other lords, why sacrifice all that by "kidnapping" Lyanna? Love can't explain everything, since he could just have rushed things a bit or solved his problems some other way (or maybe even sent Robert on some random errand away from Westeros to give him time to set things right without taking the risk of losing Lyanna to his cousin). Unless he got involved with her already with the idea that Aerys would do something unforgivable to the Starks, or Robert, and that proof of madness would make the other Lords accept Rhaegar's coup, except that things didn't go according to plan here? :devil:

[Bushido]

Varys certainly was thinking that the tourney was a cover-up for Aerys' dethroning.

[The guy from the Vale]

I like this idea, but could you elaborate on the part where the tourney was a cover for Rhaegar's plans? You mean his plans of dethroning Aerys, not of kidnapping Lyanna, right? But then, if he had been planning a revolution for that long with other lords, why sacrifice all that by "kidnapping" Lyanna? Love can't explain everything, since he could just have rushed things a bit or solved his problems some other way (or maybe even sent Robert on some random errand away from Westeros to give him time to set things right without taking the risk of losing Lyanna to his cousin). Unless he got involved with her already with the idea that Aerys would do something unforgivable to the Starks, or Robert, and that proof of madness would make the other Lords accept Rhaegar's coup, except that things didn't go according to plan here? :devil:

I love your little conspiracy theory here. If you allow me some crackpottery, I could even imagine Rickard an Rhaegar (and possibly Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn) actually being partners in coup. Brandon was unaware that the Lyanna abduction was ok for Rickard. That would even explain Hosters "The gallant fool" when hearing about Brandon riding for King's Landing: The wild wolf was unknowingly smashing his father's plans.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm sorry, corbon, but I don't understand how you can defend that Ned didn't know, wasn't even suspicious that Jon was Rhaegar's heir when right after you say:

I mean, if we can get to the conclusion that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married from the 3KG's attitude at the ToJ, I'm sure that so could Ned, even if he didn't think Jon had a claim to the throne now that Robert won.

lol

I loved this! I'm not sure how much I like the idea of Arthur as a drunkard and When as a priest, though. :P

Well the Arbor Gold is said to be very good, and Whent , well maybe not so much :laugh:

But, such combinations of such diverse personalities perhaps is what makes them the lethal three, and aside from Jems great point, might have been the thing that made them go over to Rhaegar than wait for the formalities.

[drofessional]

Here's my expansion on the R+L=J theory in which I try to link it to the very vague and malleable prophecy of AA. I apologize in advance if any of this has been said already, I'm new to the forums having just read the books and discussed them with some friends.

Rhaegar was Azor Ahai reborn, Lyanna is comparable to Nissa Nissa, and Jon is Lightbringer who was the third child produced by Rhaegar just as the true Lightbringer was forged on AA's third attempt. In this situation, Rhaegar's penis is essentially the sword that was thrust into Nissa Nissa (Lyanna) which eventually caused her death through childbirth but which also brought about the creation of Lightbringer (Jon). Refer to the POV chapter of Theon (Reek) talking to Lady Dustin about how Brandon Stark referred to his penis as his "sword", it's a stretch I know, but than again in my opinion the whole AA prophecy is very malleable, as many people seem to beiieve throughout the story (not to mention the skepticism of prophecies which GRRM tries to indoctrinate into the reader throughout the series).

Now as far as the whole AA wielding Lightbringer to defeat the Great Other, the only thing I could think of is Rhaegal being the closest thing to a rebirth of Rhaegar (It seems that through several POVs we see the dragons have adapted some characteristics of the people they were named after; i.e. Drogon (Drogo) with his fierceness and power). So therefore it's my theory that eventually we'll see Rhaegal "wielding" Jon Snow (or the other way around sort of) as Azor Ahai wieding Lightbringer and using dragonfyre to vanquish the others.

It's a bit of a stretch and I didn't go through the trouble of providing pages of evidence b/c in truth, nobody really knows what will happen except GRRM. Nonetheless, I wanted to drop my theory out there and see what other people on these boards think about it's possibility and possible reasons why it's impossible.

[Arionis]

If some of the most important and valiant members of the KG stayed with Lyanna at the ToJ, there was certainly a reason. Firstly Rhaegar ordered them so, secondly he may have believed Jon to be the prince that was promised. This made him a priority in his eyes over everyone else (if indeed he thought so).

Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar best friend: is it possible that the prince shared his theories about the PtwP with him? I don't think being convinced to be the father of such Prince was a light burden on his shoulders.

[FrozenFire3]

You are all also forgetting that it is quite possible that the KG already recognized Rhaegar as their King over Aerys. He had proven to be unfit...the coupe may have already started for Rhaegar to replace his father. No proof, completely speculation, but fits the order of events...

Yes,I agree with you. This may have been a possibility. After all, Jaime recalls Rhaegar having told him: "When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

This means Rhaegar probably wanted to take matters in his own hands after he returned from the Trident. Maybe making his father renounce to the throne and crown himself. Only he never returned.

Here's my expansion on the R+L=J theory in which I try to link it to the very vague and malleable prophecy of AA. I apologize in advance if any of this has been said already, I'm new to the forums having just read the books and discussed them with some friends. Rhaegar was Azor Ahai reborn, Lyanna is comparable to Nissa Nissa, and Jon is Lightbringer who was the third child produced by Rhaegar just as the true Lightbringer was forged on AA's third attempt. In this situation, Rhaegar's penis is essentially the sword that was thrust into Nissa Nissa (Lyanna) which eventually caused her death through childbirth but which also brought about the creation of Lightbringer (Jon). Refer to the POV chapter of Theon (Reek) talking to Lady Dustin about how Brandon Stark referred to his penis as his "sword", it's a stretch I know, but than again in my opinion the whole AA prophecy is very malleable, as many people seem to beiieve throughout the story (not to mention the skepticism of prophecies which GRRM tries to indoctrinate into the reader throughout the series). Now as far as the whole AA wielding Lightbringer to defeat the Great Other, the only thing I could think of is Rhaegal being the closest thing to a rebirth of Rhaegar (It seems that through several POVs we see the dragons have adapted some characteristics of the people they were named after; i.e. Drogon (Drogo) with his fierceness and power). So therefore it's my theory that eventually we'll see Rhaegal "wielding" Jon Snow (or the other way around sort of) as Azor Ahai wieding Lightbringer and using dragonfyre to vanquish the others. It's a bit of a stretch and I didn't go through the trouble of providing pages of evidence b/c in truth, nobody really knows what will happen except GRRM. Nonetheless, I wanted to drop my theory out there and see what other people on these boards think about it's possibility and possible reasons why it's impossible.

Wow, this is really, really interesting. I don't think anyone ever mentioned anything so symbolic and metaphorical before (although I've not been here for long either). Yes, it may be a little stretched but it fits :) Although, this would mean Jon isn't azor ahai, which is what most people believe... if it were as you say, that would be quite a surprise!

Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar best friend: is it possible that the prince shared his theories about the PtwP with him? I don't think being convinced to be the father of such Prince was a light burden on his shoulders.

Exactly. Plus Aerys may have ordered to have Rhaegar taken to war whatever the cost and the cost may have been this one: leave behind 3 men of the KG at the ToJ. This is the proof, anyway, that the rightful heir to the throne was there. This makes Jon the heir.