[Book spoilers] RW: Season 3 or 4? part 2

[Khal-a-bunga]

I agree with those who are saying that the plot thread in KL can be left dangling for S4. It'd make a great season finale make no mistake but I feel that as D+D have 20 episodes to do SOS that they shouldn't rush it, and opening a season with Joffrey's death would be amazing. I see no problem with them taking the focus off KL a bit for S3 anyway. Providing there are plenty of interesting arcs elsewhere, this shouldn't be a problem. No one's suggesting that we excise the KL cast entirely just that they're given a bit less screen time.

Also, there is a way they could give KL a decent conclusion. Sansa and Tyrion's wedding. Now obviously this happens much later than it does in the books but I think it could work and considering the sparse material in KL in the first half of SOS, things will need to be drastically rearranged there anyway. The KL arc in S3 could really be very Sansa-centric, focusing on her development into a more likeable, sympathetic character and on her being a political pawn, being manipulated by the Tyrells, the Lannisters and LF. It wouldn't be a massive finale but that's in line with taking the focus off of KL and it would cap off that arc fairly well, with the second arc (the PW) being left for next season.

I agree completely (gasp!)

[Khal Pono]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, so I will, just in case:

A lot of you have posited that the climax of the season 3 Dany storyline will be "Dracrys." Like many fans, this was perhaps my favorite scene in book 3, except perhaps the bar-room brawl with Arya, the Hound and Polliver and the Tickler.

But Dany already did "Dracarys!" at the end of Season 2, to dispose of Pyat Pree. It would be kind of lame if she did it *again*.

As Stannis said in the TV version of the Blackwater battle, "The Imp has played his trick. He can only play it once"

Obviously, I'm not saying the slaughtering-the-slavers scene should be abandoned altogether, it's just that the Dracarys thing might not work twice in a row.

Am I right or wrong?

[protar]

I agree completely (gasp!)

Why thank y- wait what? :P

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, so I will, just in case:

A lot of you have posited that the climax of the season 3 Dany storyline will be "Dracrys." Like many fans, this was perhaps my favorite scene in book 3, except perhaps the bar-room brawl with Arya, the Hound and Polliver and the Tickler.

But Dany already did "Dracarys!" at the end of Season 2, to dispose of Pyat Pree. It would be kind of lame if she did it *again*.

As Stannis said in the TV version of the Blackwater battle, "The Imp has played his trick. He can only play it once"

Obviously, I'm not saying the slaughtering-the-slavers scene should be abandoned altogether, it's just that the Dracarys thing might not work twice in a row.

Am I right or wrong?

Well I'm not sure how else they'd do it. And do be honest the dracarys in the hotu could have been deliberately implemented to set up the much larger more awesome dracarys in Astapor.

Speaking of which I am now not so sure if Dracarys will be the finale. I mean if Sansa's wedding is also moved to the last episode, that's two of the largest events in the first half of SOS being moved to the climax, which would result in a season much like season 2 which was mostly just build up. So perhaps Dracarys will be E5 or 6 and we will get Yunkai. I mean it's on the HBO map, and Daario is being cast.

[oierem]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, so I will, just in case:

A lot of you have posited that the climax of the season 3 Dany storyline will be "Dracrys." Like many fans, this was perhaps my favorite scene in book 3, except perhaps the bar-room brawl with Arya, the Hound and Polliver and the Tickler.

But Dany already did "Dracarys!" at the end of Season 2, to dispose of Pyat Pree. It would be kind of lame if she did it *again*.

As Stannis said in the TV version of the Blackwater battle, "The Imp has played his trick. He can only play it once"

Obviously, I'm not saying the slaughtering-the-slavers scene should be abandoned altogether, it's just that the Dracarys thing might not work twice in a row.

Am I right or wrong?

You're pretty much right. If Dany's season 3 arc is just Astapor, it will be like Qarth II, with bigger dragons, basically. Just another exotic city, again far from Westeros, without any notable progress or interaction with the main characters. Dracarys is a big event, but should not be the climax of her season (it should be the reveal of Arstan and Jorah's betrayal, IMO).

[protar]

You're pretty much right. If Dany's season 3 arc is just Astapor, it will be like Qarth II, with bigger dragons, basically. Just another exotic city, again far from Westeros, without any notable progress or interaction with the main characters. Dracarys is a big event, but should not be the climax of her season (it should be the reveal of Arstan and Jorah's betrayal, IMO).

I think if Dany's arc goes beyond Astapor, then the climax will be "Mysha!" Jorah's betrayal is dramatic but only provides a conclusion for Dany. Mysha not only provides a good ending to Dany's arc but also provides an uplifting finale for the entire season and a counter to the depression of the RW: The only one available if Dracarys is a mid-season event and the PW is moved to S4 so therefore it must be the finale under those circumstances. So S3 E10 could be:

• Episode starts with Arya's wolf dream of pulling Cat out of the river, and starting her journey with the Hound.
  
• Sansa finds out about the RW and is then forced to marry Tyrion.
  
• The battle of Castle Black and Ygritte's death.
  
• Bran reaches the Nightfort, meets Sam and passes under the Black Gate.
  
• Davos smuggles Edric Storm (or Shireen if there's no Edric.) out of Dragonstone and starts to read the NW letter.
  
• Theon attempts to escape the Dreadfort.
  
• Daenerys takes Yunkai and is hailed as Mysha as the last scene.
  

[Tyrion_is_Omar]

I think that RW and PW have to happen in the same season... I think that killing of the three "usurpers" in one season makes sense; also the RW is such an emotionally devastating passage that there needs to be some reprieve. I expect to pop a bottle of champagne if we get to see Joffrey's death at the hands of women in the season finale.

I Agree. IMHO, RW would be in episode 9 because has been the stronger episode of the two previous seasons and PW in episode 10 to give some sort of satisfaction to the viewrs that will be mourning Robb.

And my suggestion is to show the atrocity that the Rw is, the final scene of the episode should be not the killing of Robb, but greywind head being attached to Robb's body.

I think that Shocking image would cause that some viewrs throw their TV.

And final scene of episode 10, Joffrey death, Cersei crying, viewrs smiling.

[Lord Elrosir]

I wouldn't be surprised if RW was Episode 8 and PW was 10. Tyrion getting arrested would be a hell of a cliffhanger. Joff also has to make his awesome line about demanding Robb's head from Lord Frey to serve to Sansa at the wedding.

The split of the books could be well done if they set up in early season 3, blow shit up in the end, and then pick up the pieces in 4. SOS and the beginning of AFFC/ADWD in season 4 would be good for pacing.

Unlike the books, people are going to fucking pelt TVs if you see Dany in the East for 6 seasons. It'll get unbearable (yeah, her part in the book is at this point as well), to watch her scream and yell about how she's the blood of the dragon and that westeros is hers by rights, but we spend 6 years watching her on TV not even making a step towards it.

[protar]

I wouldn't be surprised if RW was Episode 8 and PW was 10. Tyrion getting arrested would be a hell of a cliffhanger. Joff also has to make his awesome line about demanding Robb's head from Lord Frey to serve to Sansa at the wedding.

The split of the books could be well done if they set up in early season 3, blow shit up in the end, and then pick up the pieces in 4. SOS and the beginning of AFFC/ADWD in season 4 would be good for pacing.

Unlike the books, people are going to fucking pelt TVs if you see Dany in the East for 6 seasons. It'll get unbearable (yeah, her part in the book is at this point as well), to watch her scream and yell about how she's the blood of the dragon and that westeros is hers by rights, but we spend 6 years watching her on TV not even making a step towards it.

Those cliffhangers would not work because they're so immediate. Cliffhangers are fine and dandy, but forcing viewers a whole year to find out if Tyrion's been captured and Sansa has escaped? Not to mention the fact that that leaves a whole season of Tyrion on trial, which would be very dull, and a whole season of Sansa with LF which there is not enough material to cover.

Putting parts of AFFC/ADWD could work with the ironborn stuff and Brienne's quest, but for most of the stories that would be awful pacing as it would leave the characters stranded in the first quarter of AFFC/ADWD with no logical climax points. The ending of SOS is already the perfect episode climax.

[Nostrae Sunt Furiae]

As far as the King's Landing and Robb & co arcs, I would love to see the Red Wedding as the ninth episode of the season and then having the aftermath being the tenth episode. Then, the Purple Wedding being the very first episode of season four, ending with Cersei calling for Tyrion's arrest. The last episode of the season ending with Tywin's death than the Stoneheart scene. At least, that is how I imagined it while reading the books. I just feel like the Purple Wedding would be a good thing to start season four off with a bang. If both of the weddings happen in the last few episodes of season three, I just feel like there will be too much? And ending the season with something like the Purple Wedding just doesn't seem like D+D's style. Also, Sansa and Tyrion's wedding could be enough of a shock to viewers as far as their storylines if it is written the right way. As protar said, there is not enough material for a whole season of Sansa in the Vale. While watching her escape after Joffrey's death, that we had recently seen, would be much more exciting than her showing up in the Vale after a year of us losing interest.

[oierem]

There isn't much difference between having the PW as the finale of season 3 or the opening of season 4: in both cases you'll have Tyrion arrested for most of the season. But opening the season with the PW means that there is no build-up towards it, and that season 3 won't have any significant material for KL. What's Joffrey going to do in season 3? His character doesn't have anywhere to go in terms of develpment, and if you don't show him much there's no reward from watching him finally die.

[protar]

There isn't much difference between having the PW as the finale of season 3 or the opening of season 4: in both cases you'll have Tyrion arrested for most of the season. But opening the season with the PW means that there is no build-up towards it, and that season 3 won't have any significant material for KL. What's Joffrey going to do in season 3? His character doesn't have anywhere to go in terms of develpment, and if you don't show him much there's no reward from watching him finally die.

I think it's inevitable that wherever the PW is, not much is happening in KL. It's really just a matter of preference on whether you want to see it as a finale, or as a premier. However on the topic of Tyrion: Yes, even if the PW is in S4 E1 (or E2), he still spends most of the season on trial. But a couple of episodes can make a big difference in whether or not an arc feels stretched. Just look at Dany's arc this season. It could go:

• E1: PW
  
• E2: Tyrion is arrested.
  
• E3: Kevan visits Tyrion and asks what witnesses he has.
  
• E4: The first trial.
  
• E5: Tyrion tries to get Bronn to do trial by combat but fails. Oberyn offers to help.
  
• E6: Trial with Shae.
  
• E7: Doesn't appear? Night before?
  
• E8: Trial by combat.
  
• E9: Rotting in jail.
  
• E10: Escapes and kills Tywin.
  

Now even with the PW it feels rather stretched. Without it.... But then of course putting the PW in S4 creates a narrative gulf in S3, with not much going on there. The placement of the PW is really the unsolvable problem of splitting SOS. Wherever you put it it causes problems.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I agree with those who are saying that the plot thread in KL can be left dangling for S4. It'd make a great season finale make no mistake but I feel that as D+D have 20 episodes to do SOS that they shouldn't rush it, and opening a season with Joffrey's death would be amazing.

Except that SOS does not have 20 episodes of material, even if they had left out the parts of SOS they have already included in Season 2. It has about 14 and it should not be padded with six episodes worth of stuff just to keep each season "one book pure". The problem with people who want to stretch out SOS in two full seasons is that with both Robb and Cat and Brianne and Jamie, they are already about 1/3 of the way through the SOS storyines for those characters and there just isn't enough to make 20 episodes without wandering into AFFC/ADWD. I think it is therefore entirely unrealistic to think that they will end season 4 with the SOS book endings. I just don't think they are going to make up enough filler in which case trying to artifically prolong the SOS stories does not make sense.

[protar]

Except that SOS does not have 20 episodes of material, even if they had left out the parts of SOS they have already included in Season 2. It has about 14 and it should not be padded with six episodes worth of stuff just to keep each season "one book pure". The problem with people who want to stretch out SOS in two full seasons is that with both Robb and Cat and Brianne and Jamie, they are already about 1/3 of the way through the SOS storyines for those characters and there just isn't enough to make 20 episodes without wandering into AFFC/ADWD. I think it is therefore entirely unrealistic to think that they will end season 4 with the SOS book endings. I just don't think they are going to make up enough filler in which case trying to artifically prolong the SOS stories does not make sense.

Well firstly the books are infinitely detailed. So the extra episodes gives them a unique opportunity for them to let the story breathe and remain more faithful to the books.

Secondly, I do agree that some of the subplots from AFFC/ADWD will be moved into S4. The Kingsmoot plot chronologically takes place in the latter half of SOS so that will likely be there and maybe the Dorne plot line as well (though that's less likely.). I can see Brienne's quest moved forwards, with her leaving KL in E4 or E5 of Season 4. Otherwise she would be almost entirely absent from S4. Bran also dissapears shortly after the RW, so it's likely part of his ADWD material (possibly up to reaching BR's cave?) will be included in S4.

But that's it. I can't see the main plots moving forwards into AFFC and ADWD in S4. I expect there would be enough time for them to, but it'd be a terrible mistake. Their are no suitable finales in the first parts of Feast and Dance (in fact I'd argue Dany riding off on Drogon is the first finale grade event.). In contrast the end of SOS is perfectly suited as a finale.

So yeah, some events can be shifted forwards and things can be more detailed and truer to the books. But I don't see them progressing the main plot beyond SOS.

[oierem]

I think it's inevitable that wherever the PW is, not much is happening in KL. It's really just a matter of preference on whether you want to see it as a finale, or as a premier. However on the topic of Tyrion: Yes, even if the PW is in S4 E1 (or E2), he still spends most of the season on trial. But a couple of episodes can make a big difference in whether or not an arc feels stretched. Just look at Dany's arc this season. It could go:

• E1: PW
  
• E2: Tyrion is arrested.
  
• E3: Kevan visits Tyrion and asks what witnesses he has.
  
• E4: The first trial.
  
• E5: Tyrion tries to get Bronn to do trial by combat but fails. Oberyn offers to help.
  
• E6: Trial with Shae.
  
• E7: Doesn't appear? Night before?
  
• E8: Trial by combat.
  
• E9: Rotting in jail.
  
• E10: Escapes and kills Tywin.
  

Now even with the PW it feels rather stretched. Without it.... But then of course putting the PW in S4 creates a narrative gulf in S3, with not much going on there. The placement of the PW is really the unsolvable problem of splitting SOS. Wherever you put it it causes problems.

Yeah, but having Tyrion accused of killing Joffrey in season 4 can create new interaction scenes in a new context. In the book he is ignored by everyone, but in the show he can be visited by pretty much anyone. Jaime could visit him, Oberyn should visit him several times, Tywin, Marggaery, even Varys.... The new context offers more possibilities for added scenes,in which Tyrion could try to get some help.

And yes, even in your possibility is streched out, but the new situation allows new storylines to happen, even if Tyrion is featured less. And of course, they could have Tyrion killing Tywin in episode 9 and him arriving at Pentos in episode 10.

I firmly believe that season 4 should include more material from AFFC/DWD than just Dorne and Iron Islands. Theon cannot be missing for more than one season (IF he isn't in season 3), Brienne of course needs to start her storyline, and if Tywin is killed before the finale, we can have a Cersei/Jaime scene in episode 10 from AFFC. Arya should get to Braavos before the season end, and Dany's story should be as advanced as possible (as it's been said, it's just IMPOSSIBLE to keep her in Essos for 6 seasons), Bran does't have any other material for season 4 (all his chapters from ASOS will be in season 3). As for the Wall, we should see Sam leaving, and if they have Janos Slynt as a significant bad guy for Jon in season 4 (since they need to beef the storyline up) the season could end with Jon killing him (the scene in which JOn is elected commander isn't visually significant, IMO, a beheading, a la Ned Stark (having decided to keep his oath...) would be more appropriate).

[oierem]

Well firstly the books are infinitely detailed. So the extra episodes gives them a unique opportunity for them to let the story breathe and remain more faithful to the books.

Their are no suitable finales in the first parts of Feast and Dance (in fact I'd argue Dany riding off on Drogon is the first finale grade event.). In contrast the end of SOS is perfectly suited as a finale.

The audience doesn't care about how faithful the books are, nor should they. They should only care about the story, and if the pace is too slow, they will be bored by the story (Dany's story, for example). I think they should keep the pace the show already has, no more no less. I don't want to see endless travelling scenes, no matter how detailed were in the books.

So, if there are no suitable finales in AFFC/DWD, how do you suggest to handle the next seasons? Do you accept that they will have to move the story around considerably more? Should they cover seasons 5 and 6? (and in that case, how should season 5 end?)

(my personal opinion is that season 5 should cover the remaining of AFFC/DWD and possibly the beginning of book 6. Most of the plots don't have enough material for two seasons).

[protar]

Yeah, but having Tyrion accused of killing Joffrey in season 4 can create new interaction scenes in a new context. In the book he is ignored by everyone, but in the show he can be visited by pretty much anyone. Jaime could visit him, Oberyn should visit him several times, Tywin, Marggaery, even Varys.... The new context offers more possibilities for added scenes,in which Tyrion could try to get some help.

And yes, even in your possibility is streched out, but the new situation allows new storylines to happen, even if Tyrion is featured less. And of course, they could have Tyrion killing Tywin in episode 9 and him arriving at Pentos in episode 10.

I firmly believe that season 4 should include more material from AFFC/DWD than just Dorne and Iron Islands. Theon cannot be missing for more than one season (IF he isn't in season 3), Brienne of course needs to start her storyline, and if Tywin is killed before the finale, we can have a Cersei/Jaime scene in episode 10 from AFFC. Arya should get to Braavos before the season end, and Dany's story should be as advanced as possible (as it's been said, it's just IMPOSSIBLE to keep her in Essos for 6 seasons), Bran does't have any other material for season 4 (all his chapters from ASOS will be in season 3). As for the Wall, we should see Sam leaving, and if they have Janos Slynt as a significant bad guy for Jon in season 4 (since they need to beef the storyline up) the season could end with Jon killing him (the scene in which JOn is elected commander isn't visually significant, IMO, a beheading, a la Ned Stark (having decided to keep his oath...) would be more appropriate).

All of these things could happen whith the PW in S4, and it would create a greater sense of continuity between Tyrion's trial. While the PW and the RW are thematically linked. The PW and Tyrion's trial is plot linked which I feel is more important.

I agree with many of your decisions on moving plots forwards, but the main plots should be given their SOS climaxes for S4. Tywin killed by Tyrion, Dany taking Meereen, Jon elected LC. Arriving at Pentos and executing Slynt are dramatic but not game changers. The symbolism of Jon executing someone is just as powerful in the middle of a season as it is at the end.

The audience doesn't care about how faithful the books are, nor should they. They should only care about the story, and if the pace is too slow, they will be bored by the story (Dany's story, for example). I think they should keep the pace the show already has, no more no less. I don't want to see endless travelling scenes, no matter how detailed were in the books.

So, if there are no suitable finales in AFFC/DWD, how do you suggest to handle the next seasons? Do you accept that they will have to move the story around considerably more? Should they cover seasons 5 and 6? (and in that case, how should season 5 end?)

(my personal opinion is that season 5 should cover the remaining of AFFC/DWD and possibly the beginning of book 6. Most of the plots don't have enough material for two seasons).

I did not mean slow down the plot. I am fully looking forward to the fast pace of SOS adapted on screen. I meant the little intricacies they wouldn't otherwise have time to include. The different sellsword companies, the more colourful members of the NW etc. It won't all make it in but a bit of extra flavour could really enhance the feel of the series.

As for the season progression: I believe that S4 should take us to the end of SOS with some aspects such as subplots from AFFC and ADWD moved here as well to maintain a sense of continuity. S5 would encompass all of Feast and most of Dance, ending with Dany flying off on Drogon. A lot of the duller parts of these books can be trimmed, compressed and cut to create an action packed season. S6 could take up the rest of Dance and the first part of TWOW up until the battles of ice and fire which were the intended climaxes for Dance anyway.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Let's not forget that these early episodes of season three are also going to be including a decent amount of material that was left out of both seasons one and two. For instance, we'll be introduced to the Tully's (Edmure and Blackfish, at the very least; possibly Hoster, although we may see him in the same capacity we saw Jon Arryn), the Reed's (which will provide plenty of new material for Bran, Rickon, Osha & Hodor), and Ramsay Bolton (I highly doubt that we won't be seeing Theon next season). That's obviously all material that will be included, in addition to what's already there in the early goings of A Storm of Swords.

And let's not forget that the lack of a P.O.V. structure means we'll be getting additional material in every episode beyond what was included in the books. I agree that the placement of the Purple Wedding is a difficult obstacle for the people involved to hurdle (if they haven't already), but I do believe it is better served as the opening to the fourth season, rather than the end of the coming third season. Dany and Jon will undoubtedly have more to do this season, by virtue of the fact that I consider ASoS the best material George has written for either character. A finale that focused more on those two characters could be the solution here, with material for the other characters interspersed throughout the episode to immediately set up what is to come.

I understand that seasonal arcs are important, and that this has the potential to leave one thread too many dangling if King's Landing isn't given a proper conclusion since so many of the main characters will be present there, but with some shuffling around (the idea that Sansa & Tyrion be married after the Red Wedding, for instance) those threads can be given a decent amount of resolution. Ultimately it comes down to choosing between the lesser of two necessary evils - both of which have been discussed here already.

Personally, I'd rather maintain two strong seasons than have the fourth season end with no truly natural conclusions. As I've said, begin to introduce the story lines and develop characters in both Dorne and the Iron Islands (I'll include either new material or retro-fitted material for Theon here as well) to flesh out the story and lighten the load for the fifth season (as I'm pretty confident that the remaining elements from Feast & Dance can be pared down into a single season), and use the incredible end points from ASoS to close out the season. Each story line may get a bit farther than in the novels, but it would be akin to Jon going beyond the Wall or Arya traveling with Yoren, and as such, not too far removed from said "natural" conclusions.

I personally believe that seeing this series completed all the way through is more heavily dependent on the fourth season than the third, as AFfC & ADwD will almost certainly represent the most significant challenge to adapt in the course of the entire show. As such, season three AND season four both need to be as strong as possible, which is why I'd rather see season four end as close as is possible to where the third book ended. But, as I've said before, we'll know soon enough.

[Javi Marcos]

There will be a Red Wedding is Season 3

PROOF

http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ac1c117147fa6a7f0f87c964b26dd86d&topic=3431.0#.T_MVa56g4IE.twitter

Dead wolf while filming of S3= Red Wedding

[Sasha Steelsong]

There will be a Red Wedding is Season 3

PROOF

http://www.ni-wild.c...a56g4IE.twitter

Dead wolf while filming of S3= Red Wedding

Despite the topic of the thread I don't really think there is too much debate as to whether the RW will be in season three. I think the question is more whether the PW will follow it or be put off until the beginning of the following season. Personally with "autumn storms" being epi 7, I think it will the RW in 8 and the PW in 10, with Stannis as the season's victor.

[Aegnor]

Despite the topic of the thread I don't really think there is too much debate as to whether the RW will be in season three. I think the question is more whether the PW will follow it or be put off until the beginning of the following season. Personally with "autumn storms" being epi 7, I think it will the RW in 8 and the PW in 10, with Stannis as the season's victor.

I agree with you that the RW will be in season 3, but there is a pretty strong contingent that believe it will be in season 4. I don't understand it, don't agree with it, and think it would be a terrible idea to start out season 4 with the RW, but some still think that is the way to go.