[Book spoilers] RW: Season 3 or 4? part 2

[Khal Pono]

??? source please!

It's in one of these interviews but I forget which one.

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/07/comic-con-interview-roundup/

Check the access Hollywood and MTV interviews with GRRM

[Blutrabe]

Many have pointed out that the PW would make the most satisfying conclusion for S3. I agree with that. But there is one little problem concerning Oberyn: The reason for him to come to King's Landing is to attend Joffrey's wedding. So he would need to be introduced around mid-season. We have had no word about his character being cast though. Many assume that Oberyn and the Dornish will be pushed back to S4, which makes sense from a production point of view. But in this case they would have to come up with a whole new reason for him to go to KL. Any ideas for that?

I'd also like to bring up a new thought: Tyrion's arrest at the PW is obviously a good break point for his character arc. But it's also apparent that him spending the entirety of S4 in custody might be a bit dull. But what if he actually won't get arrested at the end of S3 and there will be some sort of whodunnit at the beginning of S4?

[YTDN]

Many have pointed out that the PW would make the most satisfying conclusion for S3. I agree with that. But there is one little problem concerning Oberyn: The reason for him to come to King's Landing is to attend Joffrey's wedding. So he would need to be introduced around mid-season. We have had no word about his character being cast though. Many assume that Oberyn and the Dornish will be pushed back to S4, which makes sense from a production point of view. But in this case they would have to come up with a whole new reason for him to go to KL. Any ideas for that?

They could just have the Dornish arriving fashionably late.

[GoodGuyA]

That's an interesting observation, though I think it can be easily circumvented. There's a myriad of reasons he could be showing up, but if they happened to do PW in Season 4 they could spend some time actually building up a comradely cooperation between him and Tyrion. It would also help give Tyrion's parts much more substance and possibly leave him out of the episodes for a while to focus on other characters (I don't know, I just want to see less Tyrion in Season 4!)

[Khal Pono]

I've brought this up before but if the Red Wedding *and* the Purple Wedding take place in Season 3, then isn't that a lot more than half of book 3. Like maybe 75%?

There are still lots climactic events they could push to Season 4 (Tyrion's trial, Stannis saving the Night's Watch, The election of Jon Snow, the murder of Tywin, the death of Lysa and so on), but even without that stuff isn't that still way too much to pack into season 3?

I think a good end to Season 3 would be the assault on the Castle Black, led by Orell (who will be taking the Magnar's place in the show) and Ygritte dying in Jon Snow's arms, and Dany taking either Yunkai or Meereen.

[Swiftraven]

I would expect the Red Wedding to be somewhere towards the end of Season 3 whilst the Purple Wedding being mid-Season 4 material. Tyrion killing Tywin should definitely be in the finale of S4 and Tyrion shouldn't really spend a lot episodes sitting in a cell waiting for his trial.

The trial (both Tyrion's speech and the battle itself) should be fantastic to watch. I hope they keep in the part about the whole court laughing at Tyrion and him saying in disbelief how he "saved this city and all your worthless lives". Of course he didn't say it out loud in the book but it's just too good of a line not to use.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Many have pointed out that the PW would make the most satisfying conclusion for S3. I agree with that. But there is one little problem concerning Oberyn: The reason for him to come to King's Landing is to attend Joffrey's wedding. So he would need to be introduced around mid-season. We have had no word about his character being cast though. Many assume that Oberyn and the Dornish will be pushed back to S4, which makes sense from a production point of view. But in this case they would have to come up with a whole new reason for him to go to KL. Any ideas for that?

I'd also like to bring up a new thought: Tyrion's arrest at the PW is obviously a good break point for his character arc. But it's also apparent that him spending the entirety of S4 in custody might be a bit dull. But what if he actually won't get arrested at the end of S3 and there will be some sort of whodunnit at the beginning of S4?

Not really. Yes he arrives in time for the wedding but Dorne was offered a seat on the small council as part of the whole Trystane/Myrcella pact...it just took till Joffrey's wedding for them to fill the seat. So the motivation for Oberyn coming to KL isn't actually connected to the wedding. As a result it would be very easy (and I think likely) to hold of casting Oberyn till season 4 and just have him seek Tyrion out so they can bond like they did in the book.

I also don't think they are going to have season 4 be only what is left of SOS, so I don't think Tyrion will be in a cell for the whole of season 4. I know a lot of people want them to make the SOS closing a closing for a season but I just don't think they will and that season 4 will have some of AFFC and ADWD in it. I think a couple of the endings might stay (like Sansa's in the Eyrie) but that Tyrion's season 4 ending will as he sets out for Aegon and leaves Illyrio and that he'll be freed from KL around episode 7 or 8. Thus far the GOT endings haven't been cliffhangers...they have been more the transition between an ending and a beginning, so assuming they keep to the same plan the above is what I see playing out.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Hopefully D&D are smart enough not to blow their load by putting all three weddings in the same season. Sure, you could introduce Oberyn after the Purple Wedding, but he's such an awesome character that you'd think they would want to spend as much time with him as possible. The Purple Wedding could make a great ending, but I think it works even better as a jumping-off point. This isn't just about ending the season strong, this is also about making sure that the story works as a whole piece.

Pushing so far into ASoS by ending it with the Purple Wedding leaves the fourth season at a major disadvantage in a number of ways. I realize we'll be seeing material for AFfC & ADwD in the fourth season, but to take our main characters past their natural conclusions in ASoS (which easily had the strongest ending out of any of the novels, in my opinion) would be a mistake. I don't mean that they have to (or should) end things exactly where they end in the third book, but I'd hope that we wouldn't see anything more extreme than what we saw in the first and second seasons (Arya leaving King's Landing; Jon going beyond the Wall; Jaime & Brienne on the river). The books end where they do for a good reason (except, maybe, for a ADwD), and it's also important that these seasons have a strong starting point, which is why it's also a good idea to mostly keep to the openings of the book series.

The third season is stacked as it is, with all of the 'new' characters to introduce (the Reed siblings, Ramsay, the Tully's) and the actual new characters from ASoS. A lot of people feel that the Purple Wedding has to happen because it somehow pays for the Red Wedding. Personally, I'd rather have it end with the Lannister clan victorious again. Victories for Jon and Dany can help alleviate the R.W. They'll both have very strong seasons if the source material is anything to go by. The Lannister downfall can happen mostly (Jaime's hand will likely go in the third season) in the fourth season. Joffrey dies, and Sansa escapes. Tyrion is blamed for his death. Jaime denies Cersei, and Shae betrays Tyrion. Finally, Tyrion and Jaime have their falling out, and Tyrion kills Tywin. It'll be the 'season of pay-back' in a sense.

The writers will obviously do what they think is best but it's a difficult task going forward, and it's only going to get more difficult. Lay the ground-work for season five by introducing the Dornish and the Iron Islands' story lines, which fit in chronologically with the latter events of ASoS, and keep the ending of ASoS mostly intact. Makes for a less narratively awkward season with four, and lets season five begin with less of a bombardment of new characters.

Whatever they plan to do, hopefully they make it that far. I'm excited to see what this potentially more focused version of AFfC & ADwD might be like on the screen.

[Russo]

In terms of not having enough storyline for season 4 by placing the PW in S3, they should have enough with what occurs in the story but is not in the text. They are going to need some Theon/Ramsay in S4. They will probably add some more Stannis/Mel. Some more Varys maybe. Could throw in some Jorah/Barristan. There will be lots of room for some Tywin and Cersei that we don't get in ASOS which could be very interesting.

They can do some interesting things with the non POV characters. So I think there is more than enough story there, even if you think there isn't enough text.

[Drowningfish2304]

Just did my own prediction on the events of Season 3 and 4 in episode-by-episode format, just to let you know, I'm not commenting on how they will do all these things, just what I think'll happen when:

Season 3:

Episode 1:

-Samwell is saved somehow by the White Walkers, in an unknown but apparently exciting way (prologue)

-The first proper scene of the episode is of Davos being saved on his rock by Salladhor Saan

-Jaime walking through the forest with Brienne, they talk of how Jaime has to keep his true identity secret

-Catelyn & Robb read a letter from Riverrun of Hoster Tully’s death; they decide they have to go to Riverrun for the funeral.

-Arya and company also heading for Riverrun, using a map and exhausting themselves

-Tyrion speaks with Tywin about Duskendale and his position now in King's landing, he also learns about Bronn no longer being in the city watch

-Daenerys is ambushed at the docks, and Arstan Whitebeard/Barristan Selmy is introduced

-Bran somehow meets Jojen and Meera

-Showing Theon stuck in a dungeon with most of his fingers cut off, he has a conversation with two eight-year old Frey boys also in the prison

-Jaime is ambushed by one of Edmure’s river galleys

-Jojen and Meera tell Bran and co. about whom they are and how they are here

-Jon is taken in to see Mance Rayder, and they have a conversation, Mance tells Jon his backstory while testing him on why he ‘deserted’ the Night’s Watch so he can trust him

-Samwell and company retreat back to the fist, and he releases the ravens, the white walkers are swarming them.

Episode 2:

-Jon observes Mance’s host, he watches as giants and mammoths walk by, and Mance talks to him about this army and what he plans to do

-Daenerys sails for Pentos in her boat; she speaks with Arstan/Selmy about Rhaegar Targaryen

-Mormont tells everyone to retreat once more to the forest, and they make their retreat.

-Full scene at the inn of the kneeling man with Brienne and Jaime

-Davos speaks with Salladhor Saan while sailing for Dragonstone

-Tyrion speaks with Varys about Pycelle and Boros Blount

-Arya and company are ambushed by outlaws

-Catelyn & Robb arrive at Riverrun and Catelyn and Edmure have an argument about how she released the kingslayer

-After flaying a prostitute from the Winterfell brothel, Ramsay arrives back to see Theon/Reek brought before him by the Frey boys, he taunts him and Theon is forced to stay silent to save himself.

-Jojen and Meera play with the direwolves, and speak to Bran about the three-eyed-crow, the direwolves get aggressive however

-Daenerys talks to Jorah, they decide to change course from Pentos to Astapor, kiss scene

-Arya is taken to the inn by the outlaws and stuff happens leading up to Harwin arriving at the inn and revealing Arya to everyone

Episode 3:

-Arya departs from the inn with everyone.

-Sansa is invited to have dinner with Lady Olenna

-Tyrion meets with Shae to talk about how he can protect her, conversation about Symon

-Jaime tells Brienne about how he became a member of the Kingsguard while they travel.

-Daenerys arrives at Astapor and arranges to speak to the master slaver

-Ygritte is brought before Mance and she tells him that her and Jon are lovers

-Daenerys speaks to the master slaver about the Unsullied

-Robb has battle plans with Edmure

-Ramsay has a little torture session with Theon, flaying him and telling him to remember his name - Reek

-Sansa has dinner with Lady Olenna, they speak about Willas, and Sansa tells them everything about Joffrey

-Arya is told she is off to see ‘The Lightning Lord’ rather than be taken to Riverrun, she tries to escape from the outlaws and fails

-Bran is told more about the three-eyed crow while travelling with Jojen and Meera

-Jon and Ygritte sleep together one night

-Davos is taken into custody when arriving at Dragonstone

Episode 4:

-Scene with Robb sentencing Rickard Karstark to death, he is advised against it but tells them he will carry out the sentence

-Ramsay tortures Theon once again, this time he has a conversation with him, telling him about how his dogs are all named after peasant girls he’s raped, hunted, flayed and killed

-Bran is told about ‘The Knight of the Laughing Tree’ by Meera and Jojen

-Arya and the outlaws arrive at High Heart and hear the dwarf’s prophecy

-Daenerys speaks with Arstan/Barristan and he gives her his advice about the Unsullied

-Margaery fits Sansa for a new gown, while telling her of how she isn’t afraid of Joffrey because her family will protect her

-Davos is visited by Melisandre in his cell, she comes to brainwash him about R’hllor

-Council speaks with Tyrion about Littlefinger’s plans to woo Lysa Tully, and they make him master of coin

-Daenerys comes to Jorah for advice about the Unsullied

-The dwarf lady asks Arya about Beric Dondarrion, and they search for him

-Robb carrying out his sentence against Rickard Karstark

-Sam The slayer scene

-Jaime and Brienne have the swordfight scene and are ambushed by Brave Companions; Jaime’s hand is cut off

Episode 5:

-Mormont’s survivors arrive at Craster’s keep; Sam has a conversation with Mormont about Dragonglass and about how the white walkers are the real enemies

-Arya and company arrive at Acorn hall looking for Beric Dondarrion, she speaks with Gendry there about how it is a brothel

-Tulisa comes to Catelyn for advice about Robb

-Jaime mulls about with his hand and protects Brienne from some rapists

-Tyrion, suspicious about Symon, asks Bronn to kill him.

-Daenerys speaks again with the master slaver, he offers 80,000 Unsullied only if she gives him Drogon, so she decides to give him Drogon for them.

-Night before Jon and the magnar plan on scaling the wall, Jon and Ygritte have their cave scene

-Tywin talks to Cersei and Tyrion, and tells Tyrion he must marry Sansa, and Cersei must marry either Willas Tyrell or Balon Greyjoy

-Sansa and Littlefinger have a secret conversation with Littlefinger promising Sansa that he will break her out of King’s Landing

-Alester Florent is thrown into Davos’ cell and they have a conversation about Stannis

-Jojen tells Bran about a particular dream he had, predicting something to happen later in the season – possibly the Red Wedding, or his brief meeting with Jon through the eyes of his wolf

-Arya stays overnight at Acorn Hall, she is woken up, told that a stranger has arrived at the brothel, a lannister, turns out it is The Hound

-Jon and the magnar begin to scale the wall, this is made very ominous

Episode 6:

-Tyrion talks with Tywin about Janos Slynt at the Night’s watch, and Tywin shows Tyrion the valyrian swords made for Joffrey.

-Jon and the magnar reach the top of the wall and rope ladders are thrown down to absail down the other side

-Daenerys speaks to Jorah who tells her about Rhaegar and honour

-Jaime arrives at Harrenhall, Roose Bolton welcomes him

-Hoster Tully’s funeral scene

-Ramsay Bolton asks Theon to go to Moat Caitlin and promise the Ironmen there his peace terms, Theon obeys under full obedience for Ramsay

-Arya is brought to Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr at Hollow Hill with Clegane

-Sansa is told (maybe by Olenna Tyrell or something) of her wedding with Tyrion

-When the Magnar’s men reach the bottom of the wall, Ygritte speaks with Jon about the horn of Joramun

-Mutiny scene at Craster’s keep

-Davos is taken to the painted table because Stannis needs him; Stannis has a rant about a story back in Aerys Targaryen’s time, and throws him back in his cell.

-Beric and Thoros decide on a trial by battle between Clegane and Beric

-Jaime’s wound is treated at Harrenhall

-The trial by battle, the Hound defeats Beric however he comes back to life and gets Clegane

-Dracarys scene

Episode 7:

-Arya eavesdrops on Beric and Thoros’ conversation on how Thoros has brought Beric back to life a few times before and their plans on ransoming Arya back at Riverrun

-Robb plans a meeting with him and Walder Frey, they decide on Edmure Tully having to marry Roslin Frey as an apology to Walder

- Theon arrives at Moat Caitlin and talks with Dagon Codd and Ralf Kenning about the pardon Ramsay has offered them and they surrender

-Jon & Ygritte having a lil chit chat on the way to Queenscrown

-Bran and company also arriving at Queenscrown, him and Meera having a lil chit chat about the area.

-Jaime and Brienne’s bath house scene

-A scene between Tyrion and Joffrey, something to do with him teaching him a lesson, some talk about him and Sansa’s marriage

-Daenerys and her unsullied army arrive at Yunkai, she speaks with Jorah about how she can deal with the city. She decides on a meeting with the sellsword captains.

-Tyrion and Shae in the room of the dragon skulls, part of their conversation may be something to do with the story of what Clegane did to Elia.

-Jon and company arrive at the town of Queenscrown, they look for somewhere to stay and meet a man

-Bran and company find a way to get into the Holdfast tower to stay the night

-Jon is told to kill this man, scene with Ygritte slitting the man’s throat

-Inside the Holdfast tower during the thunderstorms, Hodor is making a racket because of the storm, he wargs into summer

-Through summer’s eyes he sees Jon, and attacks one of the wildlings, Jon then decides it is his chance to escape

Episode 8:

-Jon escaping from Queenscrown, he is hit by an arrow in the foot.

-Arya is told by the dwarf lady to seek her mother at the twins rather than Riverrun

-Catelyn & Robb heading for the twins, speaking of Robb’s plans on legitimising Jon to make him lord of Winterfell

-Jaime talks with Roose Bolton about Starks and stuff

-Jon comes to Mole’s town to tell the populace to evacuate and come with him.

-Daenerys’ meeting with the three sellsword captains, telling them she will attack in 3 days’ time

-Sansa readying herself for her wedding ceremony, conversation with Cersei – Cersei being sly as ever

-Robb speaks with Jason Mallister about plans for after Edmure’s wedding

-Samwell and Gilly arrive at Whitetree and decide to stay in a cabin

-Tyrion & Sansa’s long wedding ceremony and the bedding afterwards

-Arya tries to escape from the clutches of Beric and Thoros to get to the Twins, however the Hound catches her

-Alester Florent scene with Davos, he is sentenced to death, scene with the leeches

-Sam and Gilly wake up in the cabin to be surrounded by Wights

Episode 9:

-Ravens come to save Sam and Gilly from the wights, and they manage to escape, Sam reaches out to grab a cold, black, hand

-Arya attempts to kill the Hound in his sleep but fails; he tells her to not worry, that he will take her to the twins

-Roose Bolton leaves Harrenhall for the twins; and Jaime sets off for King’s landing

-Theon arrives back at Winterfell and Ramsay humiliates him more and ‘promotes’ him to the role of dog, more bad things happen with him

-Catelyn & Robb arrive at the twins, and Robb has the scene at the gatehouse about his direwolf.

-Davos comes to Maester Pylos, and Maester Pylos makes a start on teaching him how to read.

-Jon arrives at Castle Black, they celebrate his return and tell him to go to Maester Aemon and he will help with his wound, they rejoice at all the survivors of Mole’s town coming

-Osha and Rickon leave Bran, Hodor, Jojen and Meera, they tell them they will head south into safety, perhaps to White Harbour.

-Catelyn & Robb meet Walder Frey, insults are thrown and they are invited to eat with him, they meet Roslin Frey

-Maester Aemon tends to Jon’s wound and they speak about Bran and how wildlings plan to attack Castle Black.

-Arya and The Hound arrive at a farm and decide to disguise themselves as farmers, come to bring pork to the feast

-Catelyn is not enjoying the feast, hating on all the drums and stuff, she observes Edmure and Roslin, and Robb and all his men

-Arya arrives, walking through all the tents, not recognising who ‘Jeyne’ is that everyone is talking about

-RW, many people die

Episode 10:

-Arya and the Hound are ambushed by Frey’s and she escapes, upon glimpsing her mother’s dead body floating down the river she is bumped on the head by the Hound’s axe

-Talk of RW between Tyrion, Tywin, Kevan, Cersei and Joffrey, Joffrey is too pleased by this fact and talks about serving Robb’s head to Sansa at a feast. Tywin tells Tyrion that Joffrey needs a sharp lesson

-Salladhor Saan tells Stannis the gory details of the RW, Melisandre then enters the room and they talk of reawakening the Stone Dragon and how they need a boy called Edric Storm for this.

-Jon and the survivors of Mole’s Town along with the few members of the Night’s Watch prepare the defences of Castle Black for the Magnar’s host that are coming to attack.

-Bran and company all reach the Night Fort, and begin to sleep there in the kitchen, they hear footsteps

-Daario brings the heads of the three sellsword captains to Daenerys, the battle at Yunkai begins

-The Magnar’s host attacks castle black, and the battle at castle black begins

-Arstan speaks to Daenerys inside while the battle at Yunkai takes place; he tells her a story about Rhaegar Targaryen

-Tyrion speaks to Tywin and Kevan about the RW and why they left him in the dark on it.

-Jaime comes back to save Brienne from the bear pit.

-Bran meets Samwell at the Night Fort; he takes them to the Black Gate

-The battle at Castle Black is won, however Jon is concerned about Ygritte, he goes down to find her and she dies in his arms

-Battle of Yunkai is won – ‘Mysha’ scene

Season 4:

Episode 1:

-Begins with a dream through a direwolf’s eyes, running with a pack of wolves, the dream finishes and Arya wakes up, and Sandor talks to her about why he hit her on the back of the head

-Balon’s death

-Aeron Greyjoy performing his rituals, drowning people, he is told about his brother’s death

-Oberyn Martell arrives at King’s Landing with a host of Martells, including Arianne. Tyrion is sent to greet him, so he does, and they speak about a number of things, including the Elia and Clegane story

-Aeron Greyjoy speaks with Gormund Goodbrother, they speak about who should claim the Seastone Chair, and Aeron believes it should be Victarion, but he has a better idea

-Jaime and Brienne walk through the forest talking about honour and things like that

-Theon meets Roose Bolton as he arrives at Winterfell with a number of Frey men Theon recognizes

-Bran rides in Hodor’s basket, wondering how much further to the three-eyed crow, ravens are flying around them, Meera speaks to Bran about how she doesn’t trust Coldhands, Bran tells her they must, seeing as he saved Sam and Gilly from Wights

- Sam arrives back at Castle Black to meet with some survivors to man the wall; preparations for the battle ahead take place here

- Daenerys and her army arrive at Meeren, and they decide not to take it by force; however do not want to starve the castle as their army will starve before the castle does.

-Sansa speaks with Tyrion about depressing things like the Red Wedding, given a note to go somewhere on Joffrey’s wedding day

- Aeron preaches for a Kingsmoot to the masses

-Daenerys discusses how they will go about getting into Meereen, and decides she will send Strong Belwas in to dispatch the hero of Meereen

-Maester Pylos gives Davos another lesson in reading; here Davos finds the letter from the wall

-Jon and all the survivors of the Night’s watch all watch as Mance’s host approaches.

Episode 2:

- Strong Belwas takes out the hero of Meereen

- Joffrey’s wedding gifts are given, entire scene around that

-Belwas returns from dispatching the hero of Meereen and they notice that this makes little difference, Ben Plumm reveals there is a way in through the sewers, and the dragons seem to like him

- The battle at the wall begins

- Ramsay comes back from a search for some Frey men, he throws a severed head Theon cannot catch because, Big Walder then speaks to him about who the man’s head was he caught

- Samwell joins in with the battle at the wall, giving Jon some advice on what he should do

- Sandor tells Arya he plans on taking her to the eyrie to ransom her to Lysa Tully as they head for a small village nearby

-Tyrion speaks with Varys, he finds out about Joffrey sending the sellsword to kill Bran

-Melisandre and Stannis talk about how they need Edric Storm to wake the Stone Dragon

-Arya and Sandor arrive at a small village and they ask the people there about whether they can work there for them

-Davos and a few hand-picked men loyal to Stannis take Edric Storm to safety

-More battling at the Wall, this time the giants and mammoths come – horrible little cliffhanger

-Arya learns from the owner of the village about the mountain clans around the Eyrie and how they’ve grown stronger and now carry steel

-The entire Purple Wedding in parallel with Sansa’s escape, ending with Tyrion arrested and Sansa finding Littlefinger at the godswood

Episode 3:

-Sansa is taken into a boat by Littlefinger, on the way he explains to her how he organized the dwarf jousters for the wedding and how he doesn’t wish Joffrey dead, and that he merely has to be unpredictable when playing the game of thrones

-Jon goes down to the base of the wall as advised to do by Samwell, and he finds Donal Noyle dead

-Daenerys flirts with Daario Naharis, to show she has the hots for him

-Kevan visits Tyrion in prison, telling him about the trial and how if they choose combat, Cersei will name Gregor Clegane as her champion, asking him to take the black

-Jaime and Brienne are still on the way to King’s Landing, they hear on the road about Joffrey’s death, Jaime is concerned – though it seems more about Cersei

-Tyrion is now at his trial, he declares his innocence, however they don’t agree, Tyrion asks them to prove his guilt and it seems they will

-Daenerys and company all go to visit the camps and Daenerys is attacked by Mero of Braavos, however Arstan kills him with his staff, Daenerys and Jorah are surprised

-Jon fights his way across the wall, more of a visual scene of what is going on at the wall

-Jaime and Brienne arrive at King’s Landing, Loras confronts Brienne about Renly, Jaime tries to stick up for her however Loras arrests her

-Brienne is thrown into prison

-Jon arrives at Maester Aemon’s chamber and tells him of Donal Noyle’s death, they discuss what must be done, and it becomes clear that Jon will have to lead the watch for this battle

-All the damaging evidence is said against Tyrion

-Cersei comes back to the great sept of Baelor to see Jaime there, she is wary about them being together in such a public place, Jaime doesn’t seem to care and they have sex after talking about Joffrey and Tommen and stuff

- Barristan reveals himself and Jorah tells Daenerys not to accept him. Barristan reveals Jorah also so Daenerys dismisses them both

-The battle at the Wall is won, Mance’s army retreat back north

Episode 4:

-Asha is sailing on a ship in the middle of the sea somewhere, and she is told about Aeron’s kingsmoot idea, so she discusses it

-Arya and Clegane talk about the fact they might not be able to make it to the Eyrie, so Clegane tells her he will take her to her uncle Brynden in Riverrun

- Littlefinger explains to Sansa that they’re going to the Eyrie, and boasts to her about having Catelyn’s maidenhead, saying he must protect her as she is Catelyn’s daughter

-It is the next day of Tyrion’s trial; Varys has some damaging evidence against Tyrion

-Added scene – a conversation between Arianne and Oberyn Martell, they talk about how they want revenge against Gregor Clegane and introduce the Myrcella plot, believing she should be queen

-Bran and company are looking for shelter so Bran wargs into summer to find a wildling village for shelter, he finds the corpses of five men- men from the night’s watch apparently

-Thorne and Slynt arrive at the wall and throw Jon into an Ice Cell

-Arya speaks to Edric Dayne who lives at the village about her father

-Jaime visits Tywin who is distraught about his hand, he gives him a new Valyrian sword which he feels he can’t really do justice without a fighting han

-Oberyn comes to meet Tyrion in his cell, he tells him that he would be his champion if it came to a trial by combat, as he seeks revenge on Elia against Clegane.

-Jaime is taken to the fake Arya whom he knows just by looking at her is fake, however he says nothing – awkward scene which shows Jaime’s honour

-Theon is chained to the wall at a feast they have, he notices the dogs providing the entertainment, Roose enters and tells Ramsay of his plan to wed him to ‘Arya Stark’ – he also scolds him for acting brash and foolish

-Arya and the Hound then set off from the village; Arya taunts him about how he has lost his belly for fighting since the blackwater

-Daenerys is let into Meereen after some of her men open the gates from travelling in through the sewers

- Davos tells Stannis and Melisandre of Joffrey’s death and how Tommen has been named king, they ask for Edric Storm and he tells them he is gone, Stannis means to behead Davos but he reads the letter from the Night’s watch to them

Episode 5:

-Daenerys is welcomed into Meereen by her own soldiers, and she speaks to one of the rulers of the place

-Samwell comes to see Jon in his cell; he cheers him up a bit, and tells him that Slynt and Thorne want to speak to him sometime

-Sansa and Littlefinger reach the Eyrie, and Littlefinger tells her to keep herself a secret, and he tells her the new name she must call herself.

-Pod comes to see Tyrion in his cell, Tyrion asks him about whether he thought he killed Joffrey and Pod just seems nervous and awkward, just spluttering

-Jaime confronts Loras about Brienne, Loras is surprised he cares so much for her

-As the Bolton’s all ride to barrow hall, Roose tells Theon about how he knows who he really is and what he thinks of Ramsay, the story behind him and such

-Victarion arrives at the kingsmoot and has a conversation with Aeron

-Daenerys is given a letter from Astapor of their new King Cleon wishing to marry Dany, she hears he is bringing the slavery back to her dismay

-Jon is taken back to Thorne and Slynt and they tell him the only way to prove his innocence is to kill Mance Rayder – he obeys

-At Barrowhall Theon is introduced as who he really is, she is surprised and asks Roose about him, he tells her that he is not the turncloak, that he died at Winterfell

-Jaime gives Oathbreaker to Brienne and tells her to find Sansa, to do Catelyn proud, he releases her from prison

-A scene of Brienne riding out of King’s landing

-Shae testifies against Tyrion, a very horrible ominous scene of her saying nasty things about him

-Littlefinger speaks to Lysa Tully, they plan their wedding

-Brienne comes across two hedge knights who offer to share their meal, Illifer, one of them notices that she is the maid who killed Renly, she denies it and they agree to travel with her to Duskendale

-Tyrion sets the date for the trial on the morrow, large sense of ominousness, fear of Tyrion having to die

Episode 6:

-Oberyn comes to speak with Tyrion in his cell about how confident he is, inviting him to go to Dorne with him to help crown Myrcella

- Jaime is reading the history of the kingsguard to his son Tommen, he is given 5 of the kingsguard who he humiliates

-Daenerys sends for Ser Barristan who apologizes and tells her the truth of Aerys Targaryen to her, he apologizes and she absolves him

-Jon is brought before Mance and they talk about the horn of Joramun and the main reason why Mance is coming to the wall – to escape the White Walkers

-Stannis and Davos are sailing a ship somewhere, but we don’t know where, Stannis tells Davos to take Salladhor Saan’s fleet to White Harbour to get the manderly’s on their side

-The Arya imposter arrives at Barrowtown, Theon knows she is not Arya and speaks to her, telling her to think of herself as Arya at all times to avoid enraging Ramsay, the wedding is planned to occur at the godswood at Winterfell

-Arya and Sandor come to an inn at the crossroads where two people on Arya’s list are – they pay for a room, she falls asleep to herself planning her kill on them

-Lysa and Littlefinger marry in the small village

-Jaime goes through plans with the small council

-Asha bumps into Tristifer Botley and refuses his sexual advances while sailing for the kingsmoot

-Polliver tells Sandor about what is happening in the realm at the inn

- Lysa talks to Littlefinger about how she wants to make a baby with him, however doesn’t like Sansa being around, he then tells her Sansa will marry her son in time

-Jaime speaks with Cersei in the White Sword Tower about plans for Tommen and Casterly Rock, along with talk about Gregor’s screams. The conversation turns to Bran

-Dalla begins to give birth, and Jon is asked to help Mance with it, however they are then soon ambushed by a large army, Jon wonders who it is

-The trial-by-combat takes place; Tyrion loses and is condemned to the black cells

Episode 7:

- Jon is taken by Melisandre to Stannis who lets him free from Slynt and Thorne, telling them of his honor

- Daenerys sends for Jorah and he does not beg forgiveness, remaining defensive so she exiles him

-Victarion speaks to Euron, this is really an argument over who should have the Seastone Chair

- Varys comes to Tyrion’s cell speaking of his beheading on the morrow, implying he will get him out of it; he talks about how he can’t find any traces of Sansa

- Littlefinger tells Sansa it was the Queen of Thorns that killed Joffrey, and that he planned the whole thing, Sansa also meets Marillon who hits on her.

-Brienne passes a group of ‘sparrows’, a hedge knight who guards them tells Brienne he knows she seeks Sansa Stark

-Gilly is nursing both her baby and Dalla’s, Val wants to bring her baby to Mance, Samwell wants to take Gilly to Horn Hill and tell them Gilly’s baby is his.

-Daenerys speaks with Daario about her situation and he tells her she shouldn’t have exiled Jorah like she did, which makes her feel bad

- Aeron speaks with Euron about who should sit the Seastone Chair

-Samwell talks with Jon about Slynt and Bran, and then Stannis tells them all his plans once Lord Commander is decided

- Asha asks Victarion for her to be his hand if they take the Seastone chair, and they talk of their plans. Victarion does not let her so Asha decides she will take the chair for herself

- Samwell votes for new Lord Commander, he counts the votes to notice that Janos Slynt is leading

-Bran wakes up to a roasting pig Coldhands had killed for them, he talks to him about the dead men of the Night’s watch, and he does not deny he killed them, Bran asks about his black hands and he tells him about how he is dead, Bran is suspicious of him

-Brienne slips off as the hedge knights stop at an inn as she doesn’t trust them and doesn’t want to fail Jaime

- A fight breaks out at the inn, Polliver gets Sandor and he comes out seriously wounded; however Arya finishes him off – big moment as he was on her list

Episode 8:

- Sandor and Arya leave the inn to travel, however the Hound says he can’t go on, and tells Arya to kill him because he’s in so much pain, Arya decides not to and leaves him

- Sam talks to Stannis about Dragonglass while he has a look at Lightbringer and Stannis wishes to make the Nightfort his seat

- Brienne reaches Duskendale and asks for her shield sigil to be painted over however gets barred for the night. Sansa goes out to build a snowcastle and Littlefinger kisses her, she is surprised and a little bit scared

-Stannis asks Jon about Mance Rayder and he offers to legitimize him and make him lord of Winterfell, also offering for him to marry Val

-Jaime conversation with Cersei, very pivotal scene where she unlaces his breeches trying to persuade him of Tyrion’s ‘evil’ and he sends her out because he notices how evil she really is

- Jon thinks about the offer Stannis gave him while having sword practice with Iron Emmett who reminds him of Robb (he does something in the scene Robb used to do and Jon lets it be known)

-Sansa goes out to build a snowcastle and Littlefinger kisses her, she is surprised and a little bit scared

-Brienne leaves Duskendale, they tell her to head for Dun Fort

-Sam speaks to Jon about Melisandre’s plans and his letter to Tommen about Stannis, and how if he were Lord Commander he would send him to the citadel to learn to be a Maester

-Daenerys’ advisors tell her to move on, however she tells them she must learn to rule before she can conquer Westeros, deciding to stay as Queen of Meereen

- At dun fort, Brienne asks about Sansa. They tell her a story of Aerys Targaryen, explaining why Sansa and whoever she is travelling with won’t be there

-Lysa brings Sansa in to shout at her for trying to seduce Petyr, she then tells the story about how she had sex with him and he called her cat, tying up that loose end, they are interrupted by Robert having a fit

-Jaime comes to break Tyrion out of his cell; they exchange a lot of secrets together

-Shae scene

-Tyrion and Tywin scene

Episode 9:

-Cersei finds Tywin dead and sends Jaime off to find Tyrion because she knows he murdered him

- Littlefinger hears from Sansa about what happened between them and seems concerned; he talks to Sansa about it, trying to get as much information as possible out of her

- Brienne heads for an inn nearby, passing ‘Pod’ on the way who runs away, she talks to a dwarf called ‘Nimble Dick’ there; he doesn’t give her much information

- Tyrion on the boat to Pentos drunk, obsessing about the phrase ‘wherever whores go’ and speaking to Varys

-Daenerys finds there is a surge of murders around Meereen done by the ‘sons of the harpy’ so she sends an investigation against them

-Preparations at the kingsmoot, a number of Ironmen come up and proclaim why they should have the Seastone chair.

-Davos’ fleet is smashed by storms on the way to White Harbour; he must stop at the nearest town

-Daenerys discusses her situation in Meereen with Barristan Selmy

-Jon goes to the bathhouse and overhears a conversation about Tywin’s death, however he overhears in this conversation that Tywin wanted Janos Slynt as lord commander, Jon worries whether it might be fixed

-Cersei speaks about Tywin’s murder with Pycelle and Qyburn

-Davos is marched before Godric Borrell, Godric tells him of Tywin Lannister’s death, Wyman Manderly arrives – having pledged his alliegance to king Tommen

-Sam sets it up so everyone lends their vote to Jon

-The king of the Iron Islands is decided at the kingsmoot, Asha, Victarion and Euron all do their speeches however Euron seems to get the most approval

-Jaime comes back to Cersei telling her that the search for Tyrion is fruitless

-Tyrion’s boat arrives at Pentos, they come out of the boat to see the bright scenic city

- Lysa talks to Littlefinger about kissing Sansa by the moon door, she tells him about how she poisoned Lord Arryn, Littlefinger pushes her out, when the guards come, and he blames Marrillon

Episode 10:

-Tyrion meets Illyrio who speaks to him about what he wants with him, however Tyrion is too focused on ‘wherever whores go’ and asks him where whores go, he doesn’t really understand what he means, Tyrion then mulls over his options of what he should do

-The voting council is called and Jon Snow is named 998^th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch

-Arianne Martell and Arys Oakheart are in bed together speaking about their plan to leave for Dorne on the morrow, that both Oberyn and Tywin are dead, and Gregor’s death is imminent and there is nothing left for them at King’s Landing. They have sex and Arys Oakheart feels guilty about breaking his vows

-The Wedding ceremony at the godswood, Theon is made to present Arya to Ramsay while Winterfell starts to freeze, Theon gets all sad about life, after the marriage is a banquet, with northern guests, Ramsay calls for Theon to humiliate him and ‘Arya’ in his quarters

-Gilly begs Sam to find a good wetnurse for the baby

-Brienne proceeds to Maidenpool and meets Podrick Payne who offers to stay with her as it might lead him to Tyrion.

-Cersei and Tommen look over Tywin’s body and talk about him

-Davos asks Borrell to help him get to White Harbour, Borrell tells him a story about Ned Stark, and this makes him let Davos go on his way instead of turning him in, Davos echoes these sentiments

-Sam and Gilly get on the boat to be on their way to Eastwatch

-Both Bran and Meera voice their suspicions of Coldhands to each other, then they ask him questions, Meera demands to see his face which he refuses, they then ask him who the three-eyed crow is, and he knows about it

-Court trial with Marrillon and stuff around that, Petyr tells Sansa of how (a character already introduced) will be coming to the Eyrie as he believe the Eyrie is his, Petyr also gives her some advice about what he plans to do

-Jaime mulls over everything and has a conversation with Cersei, including him denying her proposition for him to be hand and the topic of Tommen and his wedding

-Arianne Martell and Arys Oakheart speak of Myrcella and how they will try to get her on the Iron Throne, and of Quentyn, conversation around that

-Daenerys gets another letter from Cleon of Astapor asking for her hand in marriage and support for a war against Yunkai, someone empies the bones of a child onto the floor, a victim of her dragons

-Arya arrives at the docks, and tries to find a boat to the wall to see Jon, however she only finds one that goes to Braavos, she shows them her coin Jaqen H’gar gave to her, and they let her on.

-Uncat epilogue of SoS, with Meerett Frey

I just love my long posts, also obviously this is not going to happen because I'm not the screenwriter, but it's just a bit of fun

[Lannister Hamster]

One thing not mentioned in the whole Lannisters aren't getting their comeuppance thing is that athough the Starks are dead, Dany has now got a super powerful army and dragons and after 3 years finally looks ready to take the iron throne back and punish the usurpers.

Although we as readers know this isn't happening, tv viewers may see that as a win come the end of Season 3.

[Iotun]

I'm so confident that the PW will be in Season 3, I'm willing to bet money on it. That's right, and I'm dead serious, anybody who think it'll be Season 4, I'll gladly take that bet on, and I'm confident I'll win.

I think people who think it'll be in Season 4 think too much in book terms, and that S3 and S4 are just two vehicles to staff material from the book into. But each season must be a complete entity in itself, that's no longer just part of 'the season that must contain the events of Book 3'. It all boils down to this - the PW in Season 4 makes for very convoluted and jarring story arcs in Season 4, and very unsatisfactory ones in Season 3. With it in Season 3, it all fits together.

The arguments against the PW in Season 3 are artificial and book centered:

• Oberyn Martell needs to be in the PW, and he doesn't come in until Season 4: No, not really. This is the same argument that the burning of Winterfell would not have happened in Season 2 because Reek wasn't introduced. It is silly. This is the show that has taken 2 seasons to introduce Edmure and the Tullys, that hasn't introduced the Greyjoy brothers yet, who removed Reek from Winterfell, who is giving us the Reeds in Season 3. At the end of the day, Oberyn is important for one thing - to champion Tyrion. Not for being at the wedding. Oberyn may had been coming to King's Landing to review Dorne's fealty to the crown. As a gesture of goodwill after receiving Myrcella. In a random visit. There's no need whatsoever for him to be coming for the wedding, and his reception could simply be given to Jaime rather than Tyrion.
  
• Too much will be shoved into Season 3 if the PW is in it too: Again not really. I'd argue to the contrary - not too much will be in Season 3, a season which D&D have stated they've been waiting for to do, and there'd be too much in Season 4. That makes sense looking at the arguments WHY it'd be in Season 3.
  

Why Season 3?

It simply makes sense as an overall story arc, and overriding theme for season 3, with the main theme being the weddings, from the aftermath of Robb's wedding to Talysa, to the 3 weddings at the end. Without the PW, the season just feels flat for many of the characters. With Loras and Margaery having been build up as major chracters what will they be doing and building up to the whole season? What will Cersei and Joffrey? You have a fairly significant actress coming in to play the Queen of Thorns, who comes into the season and ends up... doing nothing much. These are all major characters and their storylines will just kinda… stay there. Just because the Robb camp has a major event doesn't mean the KL camp has to stay in one place. Even Tyrion and Sansa, you could argue that their big moment is their own wedding… but you can't have their story climax in Episode 8 and then have nothing for them in the last 2 episodes, especially given that they're primary characters in the show. Their own wedding is also an unsatifactory conclusion for them. If the wedding between Tyrion and Sansa is meant to be the climax for their story and an important point, then just voiding that in the first 2 or 3 episodes of season 4 just makes it fall flat on its face. So much… neater for their arc, to end with Sansa escaping the Red Keep, and Tyrion being accused for Joffrey's murder. It just so better points to the ridiculousness of the whole charade of them being married just two episodes back, and gives a climax to all stories. Margaery and Loras have actual arc which end with them killing the king, the Queen of Thorns ends on a high as she is revealed to be the person orchestrating the murder behind the scenes, Cercei's arc ends with the loss of her son, and effectively her loss against the Tyrells's in the game, Joffrey's ends with him, well dying, etc.

It also parallels so beautifully with the RW - the dual tragedy in both camps. It makes sense dramatically. Both camps have been preparing for important weddings that would seal alliances the whole season. Both end in tragedy. Joffrey, boasting about the events that happened in just the previous episode finally gets what happens to him at the season end. With the RW causing an uproar in Episode 9, and a probably very vocal outrage from the fans who haven't read the books, how can D&D NOT go for the double punch - and end with yet ANOTHER big event as the season finisher? On the one hand, they have the chance to do TV history, to do a truly dramatic two episode punch to the face, and on the other hand? Episode 10 just sort of ties things together (and what's there to tie in King's Landing? The outcome of a deflated wedding for Tyrion and the other parties doing nothing much). Joffrey's death is a very big, and very emotionally satisfying event - but they'll just leave it for an Episode 2 or Episode 3 of the next season? And then if it is season 4, are the interested parties (Lannisters and Tyrrells), going to be preparing for the wedding for just the first one or two episodes of Season 4? Given that Margaery arrived in KL at the end of Season 2, its expected there will be talk of her wedding all through Season 3. This will parallel the talk of the wedding with the Frey's. The Queen of Thorns in Season 3 is almost definitely going to have her scene with Sansa where she confides to her that Joffrey is a monster, which will become the seed for the Tyrell resolution that Joffrey must die. So are D&D just going to be saying 'Oh we've been talking about and building up to this big event in KL the whole of Season 3, but you know, actually we're just not going to show it, we'll just show it in Episode 3 of the next season'? It just doesn't make dramatic sense. After the wedding, is the audience expected to recall the conversation between the QoT and Sansa from the previous season and ties things together, or are the two events more likely to be put together in the same season? The only reason to keep it in Season 4 is for some pure adherence to book timelines, which they've shown they don't care about.

In a similar way, Jaime's storyline otherwise makes no sense for Season 3. Jaime's Season 3 storyline makes much more sense with him ending his journey, both physically and emotionally, with him arriving in King's Landing,. But Jaime must arrive AFTER Joffrey has died, if not because of the book plotline, simply because it goes against Jaime's character to be at the wedding where Joffrey dies and then allow Joffrey to mock Tyrion, or Tyrion to be arrested. So if we put Joffrey dying in the start of Season 4, then Jaime's story in Season 3 just ends… somewhere, but not really anywhere.

And yes, it is true that otherwise the season will end up just being to depressing and make fans angry who only see the bad guys win. Remember, we won't just have the RW, we're also likely to have Ygritte dying in Episode 9 or 10, which will ALSO be a major depressing event, and Theon, who granted is not a very sympathetic character but is still much more likeable than the bastard of Bolton, facing some unspeakable torture at the hands of the latter. D&D will be seriously in risk of losing viewers if they just end the whole season with most of the good guys having depressing losses, people being tortured at the hands of sadists, love pairings being torn apart, and all the bad guys winning (even in Dany's storyline we risk seeing it end with her exiling Jorah, though personally I think that'll be the climax of Season 4).

Similarly, putting the PW in Season 4 makes that Season very confusing. Story arcs will just come and go. Sansa's, Cercei's and Tyrion's storyline will have a massive spike two episodes in, then kind of deflate, then just have another spike. Joffrey, rather than having an arc, will just show up for 2 episodes then die off and that'll be it - as if Joffrey is not one of the key characters of the show, that deserves his death, with all the emotional appeal that will have, to be featured prominently in a season finale. All these characters don't have proper beginning, middle and end points in their arcs for Season 4. Instead their real starts will be a few episodes into the season, with the first episodes just sort of, not really that important.

Instead, so much more neater to start Cercei right after she's lost Joffrey, Tyrion in prison, and Sansa arriving at the vale, and see their stories from that point. It's also so much neater for Jaime's story as well. Right at the start we get introduced to the Martells in Dorne, and Oberyn arriving in KL, for… whatever reason, I've listed several possible ones above, and is met by a recently arrived Jaime. The main season thread I see for S4 is - people leaving, and converging together. Arya will finish S4 leaving for Braavos, Tyrion will be leaving for Pentos, Doran will reveal that he's been plotting the Targaryen return and has send his son to find Dany, Sam will be leaving for Oldtown, and we'll be starting to see the threads of the stories from East and West finally starting converging.

And to all those who think there's just not enough to fit in S4 - I beg to disagree. For Jon, I think Season 3 will end with Ygritte dying in his arms, and Season 4 will have the battle for the wall, the arrival of Stannis and Mel, and him being voted Commander of the Watch. Plenty there, including a major battle. For Tyrion, Cercei, Jaime, there's the emotional triangle between the three (which ONLY really works as a major point if the season starts with it, Jaime just coming into the city just as Tyrion is put in prison based on Cercei's accusations), Jaime's conflicting loyalties leading to his helping his brother rather than staying loyal to his sister, the interactions of all 3 with Oberyn, the trial, the murder of Tywin, the escape. If Jaime could spend most of Season 2 in a cell, so can Tyrion, and in fact Tyrion has a lot more chance for interactions with other characters than Jaime did in Season 4. Plenty there for all characters, and not even getting into Cercei's chapters from Book 4. Arya, who I believe will end Season 3 with being captured by the Hound at the end of Season 3, can have her travels with the hound expanded on in Season 4, and her story ending with her leaving Westeros to be trained as a FM. Plenty there. And for Dany - actually my theory is, that Mereen and Astapor will NOT in fact be merged, and that in fact Meereen, its siege and capture will be expanded on and cover the entirety of Season 4. I believe n Season 3 Meereen will be build up as the capital of Slaver Bay, strong and impenetrable, and Dany will be convinced not to attack it, But at the final episode, as she is marching with her army, she sees the first of the children crucified with its hand pointing to Meereen, and the season will end with her turning her horse around and riding with her army away as a crucified child points to her the way. Where Season 3 was 'Dany builds her army', Season 4 will be 'Dany the conqueror' and only Season 5 will be 'Dany the leasder'. And Season 4 will end with her at the top of the great pyramid of Meereen, while exiling Jorah. A lot there as well, including a major battle.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Wow, wall of text.

In short, I do see your points and agree that doing it like this would work better in terms of storytelling and the different arcs. But there's three points you didn't adress in your post at the start:

1) How do you want to fit the wedding and all these other end arcs in the last two episodes of season 3? The wedding starts with the Tyrion-Shae sex below dragons (they're not giving view up for sure), morning gift giving and growing Tyrion-Joffrey conflict, has the vows, the 77-course feast, Penny's first appearance if they go with that story line and then the poisoning. And then there's Sansa's escape and Tyrion's imprisonment. This eats up minutes like crazy. I'd rather not cut it short by rushing it to the cliffhanger. There's 60 minutes in the finale and you need to end all other story arcs as well who do have important points (Queenscrown, Mysha).

So, how do you want to fill the 60 minutes? In short, incorporating all that you describe in your posts would need in my opinion at least 2-4 more episodes, but we're only getting 10.

2) Speaking of the other arcs,to adress the other arcs that will be further in the foreground of season 3, namely Jon (meeting the Wildlings, scaling the Wall, fighting at Queenscrown), Dany (Unsullied and a first battle for Yunkai) and even Bran and Arya. I'm totally fine with making the King's Landing arc Sansa centric (after it being Ned and then Tyrion centric). She's at the center of everything, first by the proposed marriage to Loras, who will save her from Joffrey at least once, then with the increasing Shae-Tyrion-Sansa triangle climaxing in the marriage. And we haven't even adressed the separate Dragonstone and Eyrie arcs yet!

Again, no place (And enough drama for Kings Landing by centering on Sansa).

But the most important point:

3) Production time! It takes time to film such a wedding, they already have two other big events they needed to film with the Red Wedding, Dany's battles and Jon and Aryas small fights. I WANT them to focus on the Purple Wedding, I want that one to be good. And since the producer have already stated that they can't produce more than 10 episodes per year and that they look forward to the Red Wedding, they better use their money and time for it.

What's your response to point 3? I'm mostly interested in that since we can argue about the first two without getting anywhere. But Nr. 3 is to me a killer argument.

[Iotun]

Wow, wall of text.

In short, I do see your points and agree that doing it like this would work better in terms of storytelling and the different arcs. But there's three points you didn't adress in your post at the start:

1) How do you want to fit the wedding and all these other end arcs in the last two episodes of season 3? The wedding starts with the Tyrion-Shae sex below dragons (they're not giving view up for sure), morning gift giving and growing Tyrion-Joffrey conflict, has the vows, the 77-course feast, Penny's first appearance if they go with that story line and then the poisoning. And then there's Sansa's escape and Tyrion's imprisonment. This eats up minutes like crazy. I'd rather not cut it short by rushing it to the cliffhanger. There's 60 minutes in the finale and you need to end all other story arcs as well who do have important points (Queenscrown, Mysha).

So, how do you want to fill the 60 minutes? In short, incorporating all that you describe in your posts would need in my opinion at least 2-4 more episodes, but we're only getting 10.

2) Speaking of the other arcs,to adress the other arcs that will be further in the foreground of season 3, namely Jon (meeting the Wildlings, scaling the Wall, fighting at Queenscrown), Dany (Unsullied and a first battle for Yunkai) and even Bran and Arya. I'm totally fine with making the King's Landing arc Sansa centric (after it being Ned and then Tyrion centric). She's at the center of everything, first by the proposed marriage to Loras, who will save her from Joffrey at least once, then with the increasing Shae-Tyrion-Sansa triangle climaxing in the marriage. And we haven't even adressed the separate Dragonstone and Eyrie arcs yet!

Again, no place (And enough drama for Kings Landing by centering on Sansa).

But the most important point:

3) Production time! It takes time to film such a wedding, they already have two other big events they needed to film with the Red Wedding, Dany's battles and Jon and Aryas small fights. I WANT them to focus on the Purple Wedding, I want that one to be good. And since the producer have already stated that they can't produce more than 10 episodes per year and that they look forward to the Red Wedding, they better use their money and time for it.

What's your response to point 3? I'm mostly interested in that since we can argue about the first two without getting anywhere. But Nr. 3 is to me a killer argument.

Ok, well for point 1, I think a lot of those scenes can be cut. We don't need to see the entire feast, the gift giving, the vows, and I'm fairly sure Penny won't show up in the wedding (she doesn't have to. Penny can still blame Tyrion for her brother's death because of Cercei's bounty on his head, without her being at the wedding. In terms of production, I also don’t think it's really possible to get a dwarf to actually ride a pig). Sansa escapes from the castle first, because she's been told that the wedding day is the day she will leave. Then the season literally ends with Joffrey dying, and Cercei screaming to arrest her brother for he has killed the king. We neither need to see Tyrion arrested, taken to the dungeon's or anything of the sort. Given that there's no Robb or Cat scenes for episode 10, and probably just a single finishing up Arya scene, they can give us a few extra minutes for the Joffrey wedding festivities.

For the second point - it's not nearly enough to say King's Landing can be Sansa-centric. The fact of the matter is other characters DO exist, and they can't be ignored. Season 1 may have been Ned centric, and Season 2 Tyrion centric, but all the other characters still had their arcs and something to be doing. By the end of season 2, Margaery, Loras, the QoT are all in King's Landing. You can't focus on Sansa, and ignore those characters, or give them nothing to be building up to throughout the season, and then right at the start of season 4 have this massive even thay they're involved in. Season 2 has already established that Margaery will marry Joffrey. This can't be ignored in Season 3, they 'have' to be talking about it, be preparing about it. Why is the QoT talking to Sansa if not to establish the character of the king marrying her grand-daughter. And you can't build up to something, and then just say 'You know what we won't show this really big event, and we're going to be keeping it aside for some early season 4 episode, in a place in the narrative arc that just doesn't have the same dramatic impact'. And regardless, is there enough in Sansa's story to carry Season 3 of king's landing? Sansa can't really express much other than being miserable all the time, and that's not really a story arc to base all of King's Landing. But even if we do say that King's Landing will be carried by Sansa - without the PW, Sansa's peak happens at episode 8 when she marries Tyrion. What will carry King's Landing in the last 2 episodes? Typically the show tries to reach some kind of wrap up for all stories in the final episode. Without the PW, if King's Landing focuses on Sansa, the wrap up has already happened, and there's really nothing left to conclude at the final episode. In king Landing things just... are...

I stand by my argument that a lot of other arcs have a much more satisfying conclusion if the season ends with the PW. Jaime's story has its most satisfying conclusion with him about to enter KL, but he can't do that until Joffrey dies. Sansa has its most satisfying conclusion with her escaping but that can't happen until the wedding. The Tyrell's have their most satisfying conclusion at Margaery's wedding. You can't have all these big peaks point at each characters story and then move them to an episode 2 of the next season, and leave their threads hanging at the end of season 3. Season 3 has to stand on it own as a television product, it can't just be 'the season that will really make sense after you start the next season in a year's time'.

As for the third point, I'll be honest, I'm not a TV production expert, so don't know much about production times. But, I would imagine that given that it's inevitable that Tyrion's wedding will be in Season 3, it makes a lot of sense that many of the assets for those scenes will be reused for the Joffrey wedding. In fact, why would you go through all the trouble of hiring the extras, setting the scene, creating the costumes, meals, etc. for one wedding, and then not reusing them to film a very similar second event, and instead go through similar expenses for the second season?

[Khal-a-bunga]

I'll take your bet. How does $10,000 USD sound?

[Chuck88]

I'm so confident that the PW will be in Season 3, I'm willing to bet money on it. That's right, and I'm dead serious, anybody who think it'll be Season 4, I'll gladly take that bet on, and I'm confident I'll win.

I think people who think it'll be in Season 4 think too much in book terms, and that S3 and S4 are just two vehicles to staff material from the book into. But each season must be a complete entity in itself, that's no longer just part of 'the season that must contain the events of Book 3'. It all boils down to this - the PW in Season 4 makes for very convoluted and jarring story arcs in Season 4, and very unsatisfactory ones in Season 3. With it in Season 3, it all fits together.

The arguments against the PW in Season 3 are artificial and book centered:

• Oberyn Martell needs to be in the PW, and he doesn't come in until Season 4: No, not really. This is the same argument that the burning of Winterfell would not have happened in Season 2 because Reek wasn't introduced. It is silly. This is the show that has taken 2 seasons to introduce Edmure and the Tullys, that hasn't introduced the Greyjoy brothers yet, who removed Reek from Winterfell, who is giving us the Reeds in Season 3. At the end of the day, Oberyn is important for one thing - to champion Tyrion. Not for being at the wedding. Oberyn may had been coming to King's Landing to review Dorne's fealty to the crown. As a gesture of goodwill after receiving Myrcella. In a random visit. There's no need whatsoever for him to be coming for the wedding, and his reception could simply be given to Jaime rather than Tyrion.
  
• Too much will be shoved into Season 3 if the PW is in it too: Again not really. I'd argue to the contrary - not too much will be in Season 3, a season which D&D have stated they've been waiting for to do, and there'd be too much in Season 4. That makes sense looking at the arguments WHY it'd be in Season 3.
  

Why Season 3?

It simply makes sense as an overall story arc, and overriding theme for season 3, with the main theme being the weddings, from the aftermath of Robb's wedding to Talysa, to the 3 weddings at the end. Without the PW, the season just feels flat for many of the characters. With Loras and Margaery having been build up as major chracters what will they be doing and building up to the whole season? What will Cersei and Joffrey? You have a fairly significant actress coming in to play the Queen of Thorns, who comes into the season and ends up... doing nothing much. These are all major characters and their storylines will just kinda… stay there. Just because the Robb camp has a major event doesn't mean the KL camp has to stay in one place. Even Tyrion and Sansa, you could argue that their big moment is their own wedding… but you can't have their story climax in Episode 8 and then have nothing for them in the last 2 episodes, especially given that they're primary characters in the show. Their own wedding is also an unsatifactory conclusion for them. If the wedding between Tyrion and Sansa is meant to be the climax for their story and an important point, then just voiding that in the first 2 or 3 episodes of season 4 just makes it fall flat on its face. So much… neater for their arc, to end with Sansa escaping the Red Keep, and Tyrion being accused for Joffrey's murder. It just so better points to the ridiculousness of the whole charade of them being married just two episodes back, and gives a climax to all stories. Margaery and Loras have actual arc which end with them killing the king, the Queen of Thorns ends on a high as she is revealed to be the person orchestrating the murder behind the scenes, Cercei's arc ends with the loss of her son, and effectively her loss against the Tyrells's in the game, Joffrey's ends with him, well dying, etc.

It also parallels so beautifully with the RW - the dual tragedy in both camps. It makes sense dramatically. Both camps have been preparing for important weddings that would seal alliances the whole season. Both end in tragedy. Joffrey, boasting about the events that happened in just the previous episode finally gets what happens to him at the season end. With the RW causing an uproar in Episode 9, and a probably very vocal outrage from the fans who haven't read the books, how can D&D NOT go for the double punch - and end with yet ANOTHER big event as the season finisher? On the one hand, they have the chance to do TV history, to do a truly dramatic two episode punch to the face, and on the other hand? Episode 10 just sort of ties things together (and what's there to tie in King's Landing? The outcome of a deflated wedding for Tyrion and the other parties doing nothing much). Joffrey's death is a very big, and very emotionally satisfying event - but they'll just leave it for an Episode 2 or Episode 3 of the next season? And then if it is season 4, are the interested parties (Lannisters and Tyrrells), going to be preparing for the wedding for just the first one or two episodes of Season 4? Given that Margaery arrived in KL at the end of Season 2, its expected there will be talk of her wedding all through Season 3. This will parallel the talk of the wedding with the Frey's. The Queen of Thorns in Season 3 is almost definitely going to have her scene with Sansa where she confides to her that Joffrey is a monster, which will become the seed for the Tyrell resolution that Joffrey must die. So are D&D just going to be saying 'Oh we've been talking about and building up to this big event in KL the whole of Season 3, but you know, actually we're just not going to show it, we'll just show it in Episode 3 of the next season'? It just doesn't make dramatic sense. After the wedding, is the audience expected to recall the conversation between the QoT and Sansa from the previous season and ties things together, or are the two events more likely to be put together in the same season? The only reason to keep it in Season 4 is for some pure adherence to book timelines, which they've shown they don't care about.

In a similar way, Jaime's storyline otherwise makes no sense for Season 3. Jaime's Season 3 storyline makes much more sense with him ending his journey, both physically and emotionally, with him arriving in King's Landing,. But Jaime must arrive AFTER Joffrey has died, if not because of the book plotline, simply because it goes against Jaime's character to be at the wedding where Joffrey dies and then allow Joffrey to mock Tyrion, or Tyrion to be arrested. So if we put Joffrey dying in the start of Season 4, then Jaime's story in Season 3 just ends… somewhere, but not really anywhere.

And yes, it is true that otherwise the season will end up just being to depressing and make fans angry who only see the bad guys win. Remember, we won't just have the RW, we're also likely to have Ygritte dying in Episode 9 or 10, which will ALSO be a major depressing event, and Theon, who granted is not a very sympathetic character but is still much more likeable than the bastard of Bolton, facing some unspeakable torture at the hands of the latter. D&D will be seriously in risk of losing viewers if they just end the whole season with most of the good guys having depressing losses, people being tortured at the hands of sadists, love pairings being torn apart, and all the bad guys winning (even in Dany's storyline we risk seeing it end with her exiling Jorah, though personally I think that'll be the climax of Season 4).

Similarly, putting the PW in Season 4 makes that Season very confusing. Story arcs will just come and go. Sansa's, Cercei's and Tyrion's storyline will have a massive spike two episodes in, then kind of deflate, then just have another spike. Joffrey, rather than having an arc, will just show up for 2 episodes then die off and that'll be it - as if Joffrey is not one of the key characters of the show, that deserves his death, with all the emotional appeal that will have, to be featured prominently in a season finale. All these characters don't have proper beginning, middle and end points in their arcs for Season 4. Instead their real starts will be a few episodes into the season, with the first episodes just sort of, not really that important.

Instead, so much more neater to start Cercei right after she's lost Joffrey, Tyrion in prison, and Sansa arriving at the vale, and see their stories from that point. It's also so much neater for Jaime's story as well. Right at the start we get introduced to the Martells in Dorne, and Oberyn arriving in KL, for… whatever reason, I've listed several possible ones above, and is met by a recently arrived Jaime. The main season thread I see for S4 is - people leaving, and converging together. Arya will finish S4 leaving for Braavos, Tyrion will be leaving for Pentos, Doran will reveal that he's been plotting the Targaryen return and has send his son to find Dany, Sam will be leaving for Oldtown, and we'll be starting to see the threads of the stories from East and West finally starting converging.

And to all those who think there's just not enough to fit in S4 - I beg to disagree. For Jon, I think Season 3 will end with Ygritte dying in his arms, and Season 4 will have the battle for the wall, the arrival of Stannis and Mel, and him being voted Commander of the Watch. Plenty there, including a major battle. For Tyrion, Cercei, Jaime, there's the emotional triangle between the three (which ONLY really works as a major point if the season starts with it, Jaime just coming into the city just as Tyrion is put in prison based on Cercei's accusations), Jaime's conflicting loyalties leading to his helping his brother rather than staying loyal to his sister, the interactions of all 3 with Oberyn, the trial, the murder of Tywin, the escape. If Jaime could spend most of Season 2 in a cell, so can Tyrion, and in fact Tyrion has a lot more chance for interactions with other characters than Jaime did in Season 4. Plenty there for all characters, and not even getting into Cercei's chapters from Book 4. Arya, who I believe will end Season 3 with being captured by the Hound at the end of Season 3, can have her travels with the hound expanded on in Season 4, and her story ending with her leaving Westeros to be trained as a FM. Plenty there. And for Dany - actually my theory is, that Mereen and Astapor will NOT in fact be merged, and that in fact Meereen, its siege and capture will be expanded on and cover the entirety of Season 4. I believe n Season 3 Meereen will be build up as the capital of Slaver Bay, strong and impenetrable, and Dany will be convinced not to attack it, But at the final episode, as she is marching with her army, she sees the first of the children crucified with its hand pointing to Meereen, and the season will end with her turning her horse around and riding with her army away as a crucified child points to her the way. Where Season 3 was 'Dany builds her army', Season 4 will be 'Dany the conqueror' and only Season 5 will be 'Dany the leasder'. And Season 4 will end with her at the top of the great pyramid of Meereen, while exiling Jorah. A lot there as well, including a major battle.

I'm convinced. Certainly convinced that it should be. Whether or not it will be, I'm still uncertain.

[Iotun]

I'll bet you $1,000.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

@Chuck88 Can you please not cite the whole post all over again. It's terrible to have to scroll all the way down for just one sentence ;)

@lotun

1) But the whole wedding is good television. There's drama, character interaction and many visual scenes. I wanna see those scenes, even if they could be cut. I wanna see as much as I can of the television series.

2) These other characters will build up to something, Tyrion and Sansa's wedding which turns the Tyrells plans upside down. Also, the season 2 finale hasn't stated that they are going to marry. It's only just a betrothal so far as it was with Sansa. Joffrey is still young and Cersei is totally against the idea which they might want to play up so the wedding gets postponed a bit. Then the Sansa-Tyrion thing happens to thwart the other plot, Cersei has to give in and voila, a good reason for why the wedding is in the next season.

3) Joffrey's Wedding needs to look a bit bigger and better than the other one anyways. The actual costs of the costume and designers and so on are as I guess actually minor. You'd need the extras and actors anyways and Jack Gleeson is the only one who quits the show at that point and he's not too costly anyways. The costumes and settings are stored anyways, so that's not a big problem either. And I'm not sure how similar the scenes are in the end, you're talking of the wedding feast only. I'm convinced we will get more of that, maybe even a change of scene where the feast is held under open sky outside (to differentiate and show that it is bigger). And lastly, it would be a poor show that makes decision on artistic things (how the feasts look) based on budget alone. Especially such a big one as HBO's Game of Thrones...

[Khal-a-bunga]

I'll bet you $1,000.

Nah', let's make it $100,000.

[Nick_Scryer]

@lotun

Great post! Very interesting to read and I agree, the PW should end the season even if it jumbles some other events around a bit (Not much).

It's a great end point but whether or not D&D agree will be interesting to find out.