Heresy 18

[Black Crow]

An Introduction to Heresy

The Heresy threads are very wide-ranging in scope, reflecting the breadth and complexity of GRRM’s story itself, but are largely concerned with exploring the Song of Ice and Fire rather than the Game of Thrones, and in particular with the nature of Ice and those who serve it.

Participation in the threads doesn’t require that you subscribe to the core heresies, either in whole or in part, but its obviously helpful to know something of what we’re speaking about.

Throughout the series so far there has been an ever present threat in the background of an invasion by the Others, seemingly characterised by Old Nan in AGoT as cold, dead things, hating all life and intent on destroying it. The first of the core heresies challenges this assumption.

The true identity of the Others is deliberately and significantly obscured from the very beginning. In the prologue to AGoT we find a ranger named Will watching from high in a tree as the “Others” emerge to fight and kill Ser Waymar Royce. But why are they called the “Others”? Later in the same book, first Lord Commander Mormont and then Old Nan speak of White Walkers. The two terms appear to be interchangeable and indeed the term Others is not used at all in the TV version – so why create such a distinction in the first place?

The answer would appear to lie in a conversation between Maester Luwin and Osha as they explain to Bran the early history of Westeros and what happened to the Children of the Forest. They “and the other old races” says Osha went beyond the Wall - “fled” says Maester Luwin. The point is that the term “Others” is being used in its ordinary plural sense. If it were just the Children and the Giants who fled, Osha would say so. Instead by referring to the “other old races”, she means the Children plus at least two other old races. Thus, although they have supposedly not been seen for thousands of years, as soon as Will sees Ser Waymar’s killers emerge from the trees, he immediately recognises them, not because he’s met them before or seen pictures of them, but because he instantly recognises them as non-human, and therefore belonging to the Others.

In short therefore the Others defeated in that battle celebrated by the song, The Night that Ended, were not necessarily just the White Walkers, but those other old races as well, including the Children; all of whom afterwards fled beyond the Wall.

And so to the Others, familiarly known to many as the White Walkers, and to a fair number of heretics as the Sidhe. The term originates in an email by GRRM describing their physical appearance: “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think , ok… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous”. While it is acknowledged that this was an artist’s brief, the reference to the Sidhe is considered as a significant one, because on further investigation there are other very important similarities, not least the taking of changelings. Craster’s sons are the most obvious case in point, but the tale of Bael the Bard is also recognisable as a classic changeling story, while the white lady who enchants Bran Stark the Night’s King is akin to the Queen of Faerie in other folklore about the Sidhe.

Thus we tend to refer to the Sidhe a lot in the Heresy threads and the stories of Bran Stark the Nights King, and of Bael the Bard also provide substance to the most controversial aspect of the heresies; the suggestion that there may be a link between the Starks and the Sidhe, as hinted by the blue rose plucked by Bael (in an echo of the tale of Tam Lin), the blue roses beloved of Lyanna Stark –Jon Snow’s reputed mother – and the vision of a blue rose, representing Jon, growing from the Wall.

There is also that Stark connection through the identification by Old Nan of the Nights King as Bran Stark and this in turn provides further clues. There is an apparent practical problem with Bran taking a woman of the Sidhe to wife in that she, like the rangers who killed Ser Waymar Royce and the one slain by Sam below the Fist, was icy cold. Yet the story is told along with Old Nan’s reference to Wildling women lying with the Others to produce terrible half-human children, and the answer is found in an earlier work by GRRM entitled the Ice Dragon, about a girl named Adara who while outwardly normal can ride the dragon because she has Winter inside her – a useful bit of magic if you can get it. GRRM is understood to have said that the Ice Dragon story is not set in Westeros, but its significance can be gauged by the number of times it is referenced, notably in ADwD. The Starks after all were once Kings of Winter (a title which some heretics believe was lost with the Nights King), had a sword named Ice and shouted “Winter is Coming!” as they swung it. There is in short a strong belief amongst many heretics that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in him through Bael, and as if that were not enough there is also a curious scene on the Eyrie where Sansa appears to receive a snow-flake as a sacrament, receiving Winter inside her, while Jon also encounters intimate snowflakes.

Postulating a connection between the Starks and the Sidhe also raises doubts as to the origins of the Wall and the Nights watch. Supposedly the Wall was raised after the Long Night to prevent the return of the Others and defended ever since by the men of the Watch.

Yet allowing for GRRM’s admission that he made it far too tall, the Wall is too big to have been built other than by magic and while it is obviously a barrier it is not a fortification. Current heretical thinking is inclined to link it with the story of the Last Hero, who when all seemed lost, sought out the Children. According to Old Nan they saved him from the pursuing Others, but we’re not told how and nor, more importantly, are we told how Westeros was saved, but there is a shrewd suspicion that some kind of agreement was made, limiting the advance of the realm of Ice to the line now marked by the Wall, in return for the binding of the Starks to the Sidhe – as Kings of Winter – until one Stark of Winterfell overthrew his brother the Nights King, with the aid of Andal crusaders professing allegiance to the Lord of Light, and in return for that aid gave them the Wall to hold as the Nights Watch.

Ultimately then such a conclusion must imply that the conflict is far from straightforward and as we have seen in ADwD the Others/Sidhe are not the only threat to the human kingdoms of Westeros for “Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

The final battle therefore may not be fought to defeat the Others, but to defeat the Red Lot and the dragons as well in order to restore the balance between Ice and Fire.

As to that balance, discussion in the thread has ranged far beyond consideration of the true nature of the Others and the possible link to the Starks. Rather we take a holistic approach here to the Song of Ice and Fire, examining all manner of different angles and taking in discussion of timelines and events far far away from the Wall in order to try and figure out what’s really going on.

We also have a tradition of open-mindedness, conducting debates with good humour and respect for differing and dissenting opinions. This is a thread to be enjoyed.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70554-heresy-17/

[jon rr stark]

The interesting thing about Mance collecting together all the older races etc together is he must have decided to do this some years before. He is clearly leading them for a purpose. Is he aware of prophecy, does he know the song of ice and fire that drove the Targaryens to such lengths at summerhall for example. I dont believe he just left the watch for the freedom and happened to become the king beyond the wall because there were rumours that the others were rising again. What he has done must have taken years of planning to convince so many to follow him. But even then was his end game to get to the other side of the wall and be safe. Whatever the answer to this is linked with his real motivation for going to winterfell. He was there before accompying the LC and again as Bael during roberts visit and who knows how many times unknown.

The children have said the direwolves are dieing out implying the older races are too. This cannot be because of the others reappearing as if it was surely they would have become extinct when the others dominated westeros.

Older races and species such as unicorns (which are rumoured to be on skagos) are linked with magic. Are the current events linked with the last hurrah of magic in the world. The others may be symptomic of what is happening rather that just the cause, or they may be taking advantage of whatever is happening to make their reappearance. It all kinda of seems to be heading toward a seismic shift or a rebalancing of fire and ice as in the song (whatever that is) - dare I say it like the begining of the fourth age!

Whatever it is does Mance know about it, was the real game plan in getting onto the other side of the wall to be on the side where the starks are. The alliance suggested above with wildlings etc and the starks on the same side. The wildlings seemed pretty quick to side with Jon to march on winterfell.

How would he know stuff no one else in the realm seems to know. Well hes been to winterfell, he may have known benjen (ie a stark) he is in the right place to have dealings with BR (trag connection) and of course must know of the children.

I think the most interesting thing to come from the first chapters of the next book will be whatever happened to mance rather then the coming battles.

[Lokidring]

"...Andal crusaders professing allegiance to the Lord of Light..."

I'm sure this was covered in an earlier Heresy, but wouldn't Andal crusaders be aligned w the Seven?

[7V3N]

Ok some very interesting bits from my ACOK reread:

Sansa meeting Dontos in the godswood for the first time:

The air was rich with the smells of earth and leaf. Lady would have liked this place, she thought. There was something wild about a godswood; even here, in the heart of the castle at the heart of the city, you could feel the old gods watching with a thousand eyes.

[thinks about how she always favored the Seven]

Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night.

Obviously, this is a reference to Bloodraven watching Sansa in the godswood. I found it interesting that Sansa specifies the old gods as being more powerful at night.

Jon when Gilly first makes her plea:

"For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll [Craster will] marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till..." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

"What gods?" Jon was remembering that they;d seen no boys in Craster's Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.

"The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. The white shadows."

So Craster used to give sheep, and now his sons. Why would the Others want sheep? To eat? I have no idea, but maybe one of the brilliant Heresy minds does. It is worth noting that the Others are referred to as gods, meaning they have been worshiped as some divine group and not just creatures that require tribute.

Jon and the Old Bear at Craster's:

"At Winterfell one of the serving women told us stories," Jon went on. "She used to say that there were wildlings who would lay with the Others to birth half-human children."

"Hearth tales. Does Craster seem less than human to you?"

In half a hundred ways.

Seems to me that this is a Sidhe reference (changlings) and a hint that Craster himself contains some Sidhe-blood in him.

Theon talking to "Esgrid" (Asha):

In the islands it was scarce unheard of for a strong, ambitious uncle to dispossess a weak nephew of his rights, and usually murder him in the bargain.

The ironborn clearly do not regard kinslaying as the greatest sin and curse, as the rest of Westeros does. Somebody brought up in a previous Heresy that the long Winters may be connected to kinslaying. The words of the followers of the Drowned God-- "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"--certainly draw suspicions to a connection to the Others/wights.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Well done on the intro. I'll spare you from having to read my list of things I don't quite buy.

Even I learned or re-learned some things from the intro...

the "Even death shall bend its knee" bit hadn't previously caught my attention. Curious possibilities... we've seen more than a few instances of prolonged life... and a few more rumors.

In order of introduction from the texts ... I'll no doubt forget several. ***EDIT- Forget the as introduced bit...too much thinking and not enough e-books ***

-Wights

-R'hllor Kiss of Life

-Warging & Second Life

-Valyrian Legend of Re-animated/unDead slaves

-WeirwoodThrone/Greenseer

-Ice/Cold itself "Ice Preserves"

-BloodMagic -Drogo/Rob Strong

-Ironborn "What Is Dead May Never Die" -from ShadowFox

(((I'm sure I've missed some...)))

It would seem that not only has Death already bent his knee, he's blown out his ACL. Prophesy implications are less clear.

I feel obliged to repost my last post from 17...

BUT WE DID GET LITERAL LEATHERY-WINGED SCALY MONSTER DRAGONS FROM LITERAL STONE!

Damn it!

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Jon when Gilly first makes her plea:

So Craster used to give sheep, and now his sons. Why would the Others want sheep? To eat? I have no idea, but maybe one of the brilliant Heresy minds does. It is worth noting that the Others are referred to as gods, meaning they have been worshiped as some divine group and not just creatures that require tribute.

Theon talking to "Esgrid" (Asha):

The ironborn clearly do not regard kinslaying as the greatest sin and curse, as the rest of Westeros does. Somebody brought up in a previous Heresy that the long Winters may be connected to kinslaying. The words of the followers of the Drowned God-- "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"--certainly draw suspicions to a connection to the Others/wights.

On Gilly/Craster/Walkers/Sheep...

1. Persons not learned have a tendency to deify that which they do not understand... that tendency is greatly amplified when you add fear and obvious inferiority to the mix.

2. I had forgotten the sheep.... That does a good bit to support my alter ego Ser Sceptic's unshakeable belief that Craster's sacrifices were precisely that... sacrifices... as in, Abraham & Isaac sacrifices, but without the last second intervention. Perhaps the WW don't attack warmblooded creatures out of malice or aggression... Perhaps they don't think they're "attacking" warm-blooded creatures any more than we think we're "attacking" a cow at a slaughterhouse. Killing, but for a purpose.... and they have the added perq of the warmblooded folk becoming their thralls after they're warm blood is used up.

On Theon/Ironborn/Kinslaying

1.ADD IT TO THE LIST...

[7V3N]

@Set Sceptic

That made me think... the Others could be like the Red lot and think they are on a crusade of sorts--to bring all of the warm-blooded creatures to immortality.

[nanother]

A few points from the previous thread:

Come ON now... MUST I POST THE LOTR STRIDER RIDDLE AGAIN?? Don't push me.... I'll do it. I swear to God, I'll do it!

This is fantasy.... It may not be High Fantasy, but fantasy it remains. We must put some stock into these prophesies.

Dragons from stone.... did we not see pieces of stone break apart and have dragons emerge?

Some stock, yes. Some parts of some of them certainly seem to come true. But there's a ridiculous abundance of prophecies in the series, and as someone (uncat?) pointed out that much of the plot is driven by them. So I'm not sure where Martin is going with that...either he has a really bad taste when it comes to prophecies, or there's a twist to it...

BTW, was it really 'red stars' bleeding or just stars? Too lazy to look up, but I think it was just stars...

Re: Valyrian steel and Nissa Nissa: I got the impression from Salla's tale that NN was a willing sacrifice. If that's the case, it might be hard to make it a standard process...

We also need to investigate why the CotF are dwindling and apparently can't do anything against it and what their "the direwolves will be last, but finally they'll have to go, too" statement means.

Are the old races including direwolves all dying because of some climate change, virus, whatever? Have the Others started some major terraforming? Or are the direwolves an equivalent for the Starks like dragons are for Targaryens? Meaning ultimately all humans (on Westeros?) must die?

Leaf previously implied that it's because the world is now shaped by the humans and apparently not in a way that is advantageous to the old races. Seeing that they're already confined to the area behind the Wall, I can sort of see her point...so no, I don't think there's any symbolism in that, especially not about humanity dying...

Bran's reaction feels somewhat like foreshadowing, though - he thinks how humans wouldn't just be sad about dying out, they'd fight...which ties into Black Crow's theory about the Old Races doing just that...

@Black Crow: I second Lokidring's question - if I understand your theory correctly, the first Andals (who still might have been R'hllorists) weren't the crusader types, although I'm sure at least some of them were happy to spread the religion if they had an opportunity...and those who were, came in the name of the Seven (it's plausible that it did develop from Rhllorism, but I thought it's pretty strongly indicated in the books that it happened in Essos). I think it might be just your choice of words that's slightly confusing. Although, if the original r'hllorism was ever a substantial religion in westeros, it's strange that the only tangible trace it left seems to be the NW oath...

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

@Set Sceptic

That made me think... the Others could be like the Red lot and think they are on a crusade of sorts--to bring all of the warm-blooded creatures to immortality.

Perhaps, perhaps.

How about the other way... WW view humans (and by extension other warm blooded creatures...) as potentially useful 'things', but only useful after they kill them... just as early man viewed animals as potentially useful things.... kill a big stag, and from it you get meat, bones/antlers to form into tools.

WW view humans (and horses, bears, etc) the same way.... but rather than making use of human bodies by turning their bits into tools, they turn the entire person into a useful tool.

[stanprollyright]

Re: Andals: I was always under the impression that the Andals worshipped the Seven, they were the ones who brought the Faith to Westeros in the first place, while R'hllor has always been mainly an Essos religion. But their whole religion seems to be tied in with the Others, who I thought only ever existed in Westeros...

[Tyryan Lannister]

To everyone having a problem with combining the Seven and R'hllor: who says that they didn't both originate in the same area of Westernish Essos? Take, for example, Christianity and Islam. When you think of Christianity, you generally think "western;" when you think Islam, you generally think "eastern," or, at least, "middle eastern;" all and good, except that they started in basically the exact same place and have their origins in the exact same thing.

The exact same is probably what Martin did with the Seven and R'hllor. Yes, R'hllor has taken root in the Far East. Yes, the Seven has taken root in the Far West. But, what rather important (and rather fire related) are lies right in the middle? Valyria.

Then, look at the "science" of the religions. The worship of R'hllor is NOT a worship of fire, but rather a worship of light, which, in this time period, manifests itself most easily as fire, but isn't fire in itself. The worship of the Seven is the worship of Seven-from-One; in keeping with the Seven, Renly gives himself a rainbow guard. What is a rainbow? Oh, yeah, LIGHT broken up into seven pieces via a natural prism. If, as has been speculated (Heresy 14? 15?), each aspect of the Seven has a color associated with it, then the Seven-who-are-One stemming from the One (or at least from the same originator) is wholly possible and, I think, rather plausible.

MY THEORY: The originator of R'hllor and the Seven comes from Valyria. What we do know of the Valyrian religion is that it was a polytheistic one probably similar to the Greco-Roman pantheon; when we look at both the Seven and R'hllor, there are a lot of similarities to Christianity and Islam to an extent (full disclosure: I do not know that much about Islam). Christianity arose from Hebrewism in large part as a response to the Roman occupation of Israel. I posit that the progenitor religion of R'hllor and the Seven (and possibly the idea of He-of-Many-Faces) was in an area once controlled by the Valyrians (maybe even Valyria itself***). This messianic religion took hold among the slaves and the lower classes; eventually, it spread so far that splintering/regional interpretation occurred, leading to the formation of the Faith of R'hllor in the Eastern lands and the Faith of the Seven in the Western lands. One of the earliest of the other splinter groups became the religion of the Faceless Men (which I personally see a slight connection to the Coptic sects of early Christianity in). Overtime, the Valyrians rooted out this heretical religion from the areas that they directly controlled, further separating the two sects and isolating the religions to non-Valyrian peoples. When the Valyrians began conquering the Andal lands, the Andals fled in large numbers to Westeros, and we "know" the rest.

****A theory on the origin of the religion, which further ties together PtwP and AAR and such, is that the first prophet of this progenitor religion was none other than our so-far-nameless Valyrian Targ who made the original PtwP prophecy.

Also: stupid wiki putting AA and PtwP on the same page... :bang:

[Uncat]

Ok some very interesting bits from my ACOK reread:

Sansa meeting Dontos in the godswood for the first time:

Obviously, this is a reference to Bloodraven watching Sansa in the godswood. I found it interesting that Sansa specifies the old gods as being more powerful at night.

Jon when Gilly first makes her plea:

So Craster used to give sheep, and now his sons. Why would the Others want sheep? To eat? I have no idea, but maybe one of the brilliant Heresy minds does. It is worth noting that the Others are referred to as gods, meaning they have been worshiped as some divine group and not just creatures that require tribute.

Jon and the Old Bear at Craster's:

Seems to me that this is a Sidhe reference (changlings) and a hint that Craster himself contains some Sidhe-blood in him.

Theon talking to "Esgrid" (Asha):

The ironborn clearly do not regard kinslaying as the greatest sin and curse, as the rest of Westeros does. Somebody brought up in a previous Heresy that the long Winters may be connected to kinslaying. The words of the followers of the Drowned God-- "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"--certainly draw suspicions to a connection to the Others/wights.

Craster and his sacrifices: Usualy, it is boys, then it became sheep and soon it may be dogs. What they would want with sheep, I don't know. But it seems, that anything is more usefull to the WW, then a girl.

On the names (and I am sure, it has been noted before): Gilli, Nella... Dalla? Valla? Their names sure do sound quite Crasterly.

Never noted, what Mormont seems to imply with his "does he look less then human to you?" bit. Nice and actually quite open hearted, if you want to hear the subtext.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

To everyone having a problem with combining the Seven and R'hllor: who says that they didn't both originate in the same area of Westernish Essos? Take, for example, Christianity and Islam. When you think of Christianity, you generally think "western;" when you think Islam, you generally think "eastern," or, at least, "middle eastern;" all and good, except that they started in basically the exact same place and have their origins in the exact same thing.

The exact same is probably what Martin did with the Seven and R'hllor. Yes, R'hllor has taken root in the Far East. Yes, the Seven has taken root in the Far West. But, what rather important (and rather fire related) are lies right in the middle? Valyria.

Then, look at the "science" of the religions. The worship of R'hllor is NOT a worship of fire, but rather a worship of light, which, in this time period, manifests itself most easily as fire, but isn't fire in itself. The worship of the Seven is the worship of Seven-from-One; in keeping with the Seven, Renly gives himself a rainbow guard. What is a rainbow? Oh, yeah, LIGHT broken up into seven pieces via a natural prism. If, as has been speculated (Heresy 14? 15?), each aspect of the Seven has a color associated with it, then the Seven-who-are-One stemming from the One (or at least from the same originator) is wholly possible and, I think, rather plausible.

MY THEORY: The originator of R'hllor and the Seven comes from Valyria. What we do know of the Valyrian religion is that it was a polytheistic one probably similar to the Greco-Roman pantheon; when we look at both the Seven and R'hllor, there are a lot of similarities to Christianity and Islam to an extent (full disclosure: I do not know that much about Islam). Christianity arose from Hebrewism in large part as a response to the Roman occupation of Israel. I posit that the progenitor religion of R'hllor and the Seven (and possibly the idea of He-of-Many-Faces) was in an area once controlled by the Valyrians (maybe even Valyria itself***). This messianic religion took hold among the slaves and the lower classes; eventually, it spread so far that splintering/regional interpretation occurred, leading to the formation of the Faith of R'hllor in the Eastern lands and the Faith of the Seven in the Western lands. One of the earliest of the other splinter groups became the religion of the Faceless Men (which I personally see a slight connection to the Coptic sects of early Christianity in). Overtime, the Valyrians rooted out this heretical religion from the areas that they directly controlled, further separating the two sects and isolating the religions to non-Valyrian peoples. When the Valyrians began conquering the Andal lands, the Andals fled in large numbers to Westeros, and we "know" the rest.

****A theory on the origin of the religion, which further ties together PtwP and AAR and such, is that the first prophet of this progenitor religion was none other than our so-far-nameless Valyrian Targ who made the original PtwP prophecy.

Also: stupid wiki putting AA and PtwP on the same page... :bang:

I had an entirely different theory on why Renly wanted a Rainbow Guard.

ENTIRELY.

[Uncat]

@Nanother: 't was me. The plott is driven by the prophesies, but not in the sense, that we march from one fulfilled prophesie to the next. It rather is, that there is abutload of prophesies and people act on them. The prophesies are like, don't know, the resonator of a laser: they collect the energy of the POVs, bounce it back and forth, until the whole mind of the POV is deadset on the prophesie and on what she/he thinks, that it means: thus the interpretation gives the character a direction and a meaning on which it goes of in a straith line, hitting and affecting those she or he hits/meets on the way. This works, without the prophesies ever getting fulfilled.

[Uncat]

I had an entirely different theory on why Renly wanted a Rainbow Guard.

ENTIRELY.

:agree: :lol:

But I second the idee of R'hollor and the seven having on and the same root. And as we see by the end of AFFC, the Faith can be quite radical to, without being a variation of R'hollorism.

But once, Westeros was won for the Faith, it had the chance to develop in a full blown religion an with the unification of the Seven Kingdoms, it even became kind of the "official" religion, supported by and supporting the realm.

For BCs idea to work, we don't need the Faith to develop from R'hollor. The Faith has fire enough of its own. It only has been burning low, while the religion became an institution.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

But on a more serious note...

The problem with the Right Honorable Ser Skeptic's Craster simple sacrifice theory , while circumstantial, is none the less troubling...

Why just the males? Very curious, that... Makes me think of that lousy Night's King. He was 'entrapped' by (presumably) a female whitewalker... If there is something to the Walker/Human Hybrid legend, evidence would indicate that only human males can breed with WW females, and that's why they want to collect human males.

The Sceptic half of my brain has problems with that theory. (I'm getting confused with regard to who's theories are whos here) If that is true, the WW must plan to be up and about for quite some time... long enough for these infants to reach a mating age... Also, if that's the case, what's with the sheep? If part of their plans call for human males, what good are sheep? dogs? If WW came to Craster's one day and he didn't have and males to offer, why wouldn't they just take him?

I don't know... I can come up with reasons for all of the logical hiccups I'm encountering in this projection, but none of them hold much water... feels like I'm grasping at straws...

Perhaps there is something under the barrow-esque earthen ramparts surrounding the glorified longhouse? They are pathetically weak defenses... the only thing they could stop is an over-laden ox cart being pulled by a tired ox... that begs the question, if not for phyiscal defense.... perhaps a spiritual/magical defense?

[Black Crow]

But on a more serious note...

The problem with the Right Honorable Ser Skeptic's Craster simple sacrifice theory , while circumstantial, is none the less troubling...

Why just the males? Very curious, that... Makes me think of that lousy Night's King. He was 'entrapped' by (presumably) a female whitewalker... If there is something to the Walker/Human Hybrid legend, evidence would indicate that only human males can breed with WW females, and that's why they want to collect human males.

The Sceptic half of my brain has problems with that theory. (I'm getting confused with regard to who's theories are whos here) If that is true, the WW must plan to be up and about for quite some time... long enough for these infants to reach a mating age... Also, if that's the case, what's with the sheep? If part of their plans call for human males, what good are sheep? dogs? If WW came to Craster's one day and he didn't have and males to offer, why wouldn't they just take him?

I don't know... I can come up with reasons for all of the logical hiccups I'm encountering in this projection, but none of them hold much water... feels like I'm grasping at straws...

Perhaps there is something under the barrow-esque earthen ramparts surrounding the glorified longhouse? They are pathetically weak defenses... the only thing they could stop is an over-laden ox cart being pulled by a tired ox... that begs the question, if not for phyiscal defense.... perhaps a spiritual/magical defense?

Working backwards, the earthen "ramparts" are the simplest form of defensive enclosure. You lift off the turf from twice the width of what will be the base of your embankment. Then you dig a ditch in the outer half of the strip and pile up the spoil on the inner half to form the rampart. Face the rampart with the turf lifted off earlier to stop it crumbling away when it rains, and then plant a row of stakes all the way along the top. Its not going to stand a siege, but it offers a fair degree of everyday protection - not least from scavenging animals - and relatively speaking is easy to build. I wouldn't be at all surprised though if its a lot older than Craster himself.

As to Craster's sons, I don't think its necessary to over-analyse this one. The women say that they're being taken to become White Walkers - warriors. If they were being taken to eat or to drain the life from them, as some orthodox stalwarts insist then a girl child would do just as well if a boy wasn't available, but no, if Craster's boys come knocking and there's no new brother, they pick up some sheep instead - Faerie folk have got to eat same as everybody else.

Craster himself? I think the simplest explanation is that he does indeed have Sidhe blood - and its possible we haven't seen the last of him.

[alienarea]

But on a more serious note...

The problem with the Right Honorable Ser Skeptic's Craster simple sacrifice theory , while circumstantial, is none the less troubling...

Why just the males? Very curious, that... Makes me think of that lousy Night's King. He was 'entrapped' by (presumably) a female whitewalker... If there is something to the Walker/Human Hybrid legend, evidence would indicate that only human males can breed with WW females, and that's why they want to collect human males.

The Sceptic half of my brain has problems with that theory. (I'm getting confused with regard to who's theories are whos here) If that is true, the WW must plan to be up and about for quite some time... long enough for these infants to reach a mating age... Also, if that's the case, what's with the sheep? If part of their plans call for human males, what good are sheep? dogs? If WW came to Craster's one day and he didn't have and males to offer, why wouldn't they just take him?

I don't know... I can come up with reasons for all of the logical hiccups I'm encountering in this projection, but none of them hold much water... feels like I'm grasping at straws...

Perhaps there is something under the barrow-esque earthen ramparts surrounding the glorified longhouse? They are pathetically weak defenses... the only thing they could stop is an over-laden ox cart being pulled by a tired ox... that begs the question, if not for phyiscal defense.... perhaps a spiritual/magical defense?

About the human/WW interbreeding. First we are told that wildling women lay with others and the outcome were terrible half-human children. Then the Night King gave his seed and soul to a pale woman, but we aren't told about the offspring IIRC.

Sounds a bit like mating horses and donkeys. AFAIK if you mate male horse and female donkey you get cross-species A while female horse and male donkey results in B. And A or B is infertile or atleast they can't reproduce. Please correct if this is wrong, school was long ago.

Other explanation would be if the Others had a beelike organisation with only one female.their current queen needs toproduce the next queen and they are looking for a new Night King to give seed and soul.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Craster and his sacrifices: Usualy, it is boys, then it became sheep and soon it may be dogs. What they would want with sheep, I don't know. But it seems, that anything is more usefull to the WW, then a girl.

On the names (and I am sure, it has been noted before): Gilli, Nella... Dalla? Valla? Their names sure do sound quite Crasterly.

Never noted, what Mormont seems to imply with his "does he look less then human to you?" bit. Nice and actually quite open hearted, if you want to hear the subtext.

Why does Craster get rid of the boys and keep the girls? Because the dominant male in a group practicing polygamy doesn't want competition for the young, attractive, fertile females, so he gets rid of the young men in the community.

Even if it turns out that Craster's way of life had its origin in some religious observance (as does modern polygamy), his story is written so that it seems like he lives the way he does for his own pleasure and convenience. So he'd want to keep the girls that he can wed and bed and produce children for sacrifice, and he'd get rid of the boys who would compete for the girls or otherwise disturb his comfortable way of life.