Heresy 18

[MarianneSnow]

• ETA: Crackpot question - is it possible for the Starks to openly Warg into each other? (7 are all aspects of one God) - could Bran warg into Sansa or Arya for example to help them fight?
  

I would say so...especially Bran. I think they would be able to tell who it was warging them as well and maybe allow it to take place. I don't know if it will happen but I think it is possible.

[DragonSpawn]

@DragonSpawn, If the Starks are an aspect of the Seven, they are the Stranger. In general, I always bore the impression that Ned marrying Catelyn was some sort of game-change. Whether for good or bad. Starks did not marry southerners. Catelyn is only reason Septa Mordane is there. I'm pretty sure Catelyn within AGOT states that Ned built her a sept, which definitively implies the Seven were not a part of the North.

Whether it's having the seven a part of the family inspires the warg abilities, or some other catalyst (notice the similarity there), for the vents as they are happening. The other thought is The Starks were originally much closer to the White Walkers and have bread down to this form, and marrying south further diminishes their ancestry? Not sure yet on those.

I'm quite happy to go along with the bolded part - it's something that's crossed my mind many many times before and is a perfectly acceptable conclusion... but i'm just exploring some alternatives, by taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture... for example - I have no great respect for the 7 although i do think their legal process is quite interesting... as are the old stories of them being demon-hunters and dragon-slayers etc... but for the Dragon slaying alone + it was the main religion of the Andals who were fleeing Valyria... makes me think that they are probably more Ice related... Aegon made a Pact with the Starks in front of the CotF ... and adopted the Faith of the 7 (not necessarily at the same time). Quite a step for a Dragon-lord to take... very compromising, without any real reason to compromise... seemed to me almost desperate... possibly drawn by a need for the cold to preserve them?

Since the 7 were opposed to Valyria originally - i would put them almost in the same boat as the Rhoynar... and we know that tales of "icy women" are embedded within that history... so it seems the 7 can become part of all religions... and the followers are quite common on the Wall...

When it comes to a test of faith there is no-one more faithful than the Starks ... i'm not so sure about the current batch - but the Starks have kept faith for 8000 years (if the True History is to be believed - lol! the clue is in the title!.. true!) and have stayed true to the old gods... invasion after invasion after invasion and the Starks keep worshipping their trees... the 7 wonderers (stars) are charged with "keeping the faith" - i personally think the 7 could be a religion derived from the 8000 year old Stark Kings of Winter... the first 7 in human form (wanderers - and what are the Starks now if not wanderers? away from home wondering around?) - and let's not forget the rumour is that the Father himself crowned Hugor of the Hill - What if Jon Snow and Dany both become immortals of Fire and Ice ... but in their joining they lose their immortality and must give up their Kingdom... who do they choose to become King as a replacement - why not Tyrion and Sansa? Jon becomes the father and crowns Tyrion (Hugor) - and i think after finding out that Winterfell could mean "Winter that is above the trees (morally)... or a hill rising from above the trees (literally) - again draws a strong link with Hugor of the Hill

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I would say so...especially Bran. I think they would be able to tell who it was warging them as well and maybe allow it to take place. I don't know if it will happen but I think it is possible.

Ugh... Not the human warging again.

Bran can Warg Hodor because Hodor has a very simple mind. When you attempt to Warg someone with an average mind, and average will power, you get the Thistle response. Violent reaction.. bite off tongue, claw out eyes, epileptic fits...a very noticable reaction.

( Random thought - Such people would be suspected of being possessed - not far off the mark)

This chain of thought led to us listing all retarded/mentally deficient people we've met in ASOIAF.

[Ser Leftwich]

I have a question about "heresy revealing" in the books.

Lets assume that the various Heresy's are correct - How much if any do you think will be revealed & therefore validated in the Books? And by which mechanism / which POV?

Given that is taken 18 iterations of 20 page + threads of a bunch of extremely well researched, well read, creative & bright heretics to sift through the clues & get to some answers it may be a shock to average Joe reader to have reveleaed to them that the Others are like the Sidhe etc etc.

Do you think these are GRRM indulgences for those brave enough to go on a heretical journey to the truth? Do you think some, none or all of the Heresys are likely to be revealed? How will that play out in the books?

Depending on how much there will be in the Land of Always Winter and the Weirnet past through Bran, I think readers will learn a considerable amount about the past/Heresy. The trick will be that most of the characters and people in the story will not learn all of it, just some, to make the story happen.

I think some characters will learn extraordinary truths, but not believe them and/or those truths will drive them crazy/mad.

There is something from the past that has been forgotten and needs to be remembered/practiced, the Reeds say as much to Bran.

[stanprollyright]

Ugh... Not the human warging again.

Bran can Warg Hodor because Hodor has a very simple mind. When you attempt to Warg someone with an average mind, and average will power, you get the Thistle response. Violent reaction.. bite off tongue, claw out eyes, epileptic fits...a very noticable reaction.

But now that Hodor is "broken in" any one of the Starks can warg into Hodor at any time...

[Ser Leftwich]

snip

Aegon made a Pact with the Starks in front of the CotF ... and adopted the Faith of the 7 (not necessarily at the same time).

snip

This first assumption/leap seems more than a little too much. There is no hint at all that the CotF were actively or even passively involved in Westerosi politics/goings on at the time of the Conquest.

Also, this:

Ugh... Not the human warging again.

snip

[Budj]

I think the Andals came over to Westeros with the seven...would explain why they were such ass holes about the CotF / weirwood face trees.

Of course, as we can see with EVERY religion in Westeros, save the old gods and even then their relative goodness is arguably affected by the human acting as greenseer, that the moral standard is HIGHLY affected by those in charge of its "mission." Therefore, if the physical embodiment of the seven are walking around Westeros right now they may have 0 to do with the Faith or any other religion and may instead serve a more altruistic purpose outside of whatever shenanigans the religious leaders / fanatics are plotting.

Where is that quote? If I understood you correctly, Martin said the modern day 7 are involved with this story?

[Uncat]

I have a question about "heresy revealing" in the books.

Lets assume that the various Heresy's are correct - How much if any do you think will be revealed & therefore validated in the Books? And by which mechanism / which POV?

Given that is taken 18 iterations of 20 page + threads of a bunch of extremely well researched, well read, creative & bright heretics to sift through the clues & get to some answers it may be a shock to average Joe reader to have reveleaed to them that the Others are like the Sidhe etc etc.

Do you think these are GRRM indulgences for those brave enough to go on a heretical journey to the truth? Do you think some, none or all of the Heresys are likely to be revealed? How will that play out in the books?

Well, is pretty mich like figuring a key from its hole. There are millions of options and you will need to make a lot of keys. But once you have figured it out, the key will unlock the door oh so smoothly and it will be so obvious, that the key is shaped the way it is.

Same thing happens here. GRRM will not jump in our faces crying "gothca guys, it was the Sidhe and you never got it". He will let us know the WW more and more and give us a better understanding of them. And once we get told, how the Kings of Winter were actually connected to the WW, it will make perfect sense.

I'm sure Joe Reader will need to know the Sidhe folklore to understand it then. He will get the plot without this. And then there are those who might rember it, when more Sidhe-like properties come up and they will be happy, too, because they can feel much smarter.

And then there are the Heresy guys and galls who will pop a Champaing every time one of them finds or thinks himself right. And that will not be hard to know, because every detailed discussion here serves the one big purpose: see the big picture and make predictions. And when the books are done, we will be a lot wiser as for the outcome of our predictions.

In the end, there may be left a lot of fine details and nuances but we will see many heresies being proofed right or wrong on the spot.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

But now that Hodor is "broken in" any one of the Starks can warg into Hodor at any time...

I wouldn't argue with that.

Though Arya & Jon need their own versions of Jojen & 3EC to really get going... If Jon is horribly wounded, maybe Bran can reach out to him ... Serving as Jon's 3EC.

Perhaps Melisandre or the guy with the boar can also coach Jon.

Speaking of which, we generally do not associate Warg-abilities w/ the Reds... Yet Melisandre seems to not only recognize it in Jon... She seems to encourage it.

[Black Crow]

Ugh... Not the human warging again.

Bran can Warg Hodor because Hodor has a very simple mind. When you attempt to Warg someone with an average mind, and average will power, you get the Thistle response. Violent reaction.. bite off tongue, claw out eyes, epileptic fits...a very noticable reaction.

( Random thought - Such people would be suspected of being possessed - not far off the mark)

I agree and in any case would question the point of say Bran warging into Sansa... why? Bran the warrior in Hodor's body perhaps, as we've already seen, but there's a purpose to that in that it gives Bran legs when he needs them, but his siblings?

[Black Crow]

I wouldn't argue with that.

...we generally do not associate Warg-abilities w/ the Reds... Yet Melisandre seems to not only recognize it in Jon... She seems to encourage it.

Its a new toy for her to play with.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I have a question about "heresy revealing" in the books.

Lets assume that the various Heresy's are correct - How much if any do you think will be revealed & therefore validated in the Books? And by which mechanism / which POV?

Given that is taken 18 iterations of 20 page + threads of a bunch of extremely well researched, well read, creative & bright heretics to sift through the clues & get to some answers it may be a shock to average Joe reader to have reveleaed to them that the Others are like the Sidhe etc etc.

Do you think these are GRRM indulgences for those brave enough to go on a heretical journey to the truth? Do you think some, none or all of the Heresys are likely to be revealed? How will that play out in the books?

I remember reading somewhere that GRRM has said that while he doesn't really like the idea of doing it most likely ASOIAF will end kind of like Lost: a lot of questions left unanswered. The quote that I read relative to this gave me the impression that he wants to answer all the important questions by series' end but that he views it will be unlikely to happen. I feel that part of the reason for Dunk and Egg is to provide a few answers (especially for the Targ-PtwP vis-a-vis Bloodraven and Aemon ones). The World Book will also very likely have lost of little hints and prods about the true answers that only people such as heretics who really delve into it will catch/stuff that will seem normal until later in the series.

It's also possible that GRRM hasn't come up with answers for all the questions either (we do need to remember that, while Martin is a huge fan of Tolkien and is influence by him, Martin has stated that he isn't trying to create a world, only to tell an albeit epic story; as such, answering all these how and why questions, if they do not directly pertain to the plot at hand in Martin's mind, is not of tantamount importance).

[7V3N]

I've suggested in other threads that GRRM should go back and give us alternate POV's after the last ASOIAF book. I would love to read from the Hound's perspective, as well as Varys, Littlefinger, and Rodrik Cassel. He wouldn't have to worry about spoilers because it'd be a post-ASOIAF side project.

Or maybe even something like "the Bloodraven diaries."

[Tyryan Lannister]

I wouldn't argue with that.

Though Arya & Jon need their own versions of Jojen & 3EC to really get going... If Jon is horribly wounded, maybe Bran can reach out to him ... Serving as Jon's 3EC.

Perhaps Melisandre or the guy with the boar can also coach Jon.

Speaking of which, we generally do not associate Warg-abilities w/ the Reds... Yet Melisandre seems to not only recognize it in Jon... She seems to encourage it.

She also acknowledges the truth to Val's words about magic being like a sword without a hilt; I feel that if Mel ever comes into the knowledge about BR and Bran being (what we suppose are) good guys, then she would, if possible, encourage Jon to find them out and learn how to properly utilize his abilities.

Although, given the fact that "all she see's is Snow" i feel that she senses other, deeper, more powerful magics in Jon beyond just the warg thing (and if he is PtwP, or even at least R+L=J, then I feel the Targ magics would either cancel out the Stark ones--which we know to not be the case--or augment them, kind of a "whole greater than the sum" effect).

I've suggested in other threads that GRRM should go back and give us alternate POV's after the last ASOIAF book. I would love to read from the Hound's perspective, as well as Varys, Littlefinger, and Rodrik Cassel. He wouldn't have to worry about spoilers because it'd be a post-ASOIAF side project.

I would say that really the only thing stopping him from stating that he would is that, due to his age, he has fears about being able to even finish ASOIAF proper, evidenced by the fact that he has lain out the main plot points beyond Dance to D&D in the event of his untimely death.

[Black Crow]

I have a question about "heresy revealing" in the books.

Lets assume that the various Heresy's are correct - How much if any do you think will be revealed & therefore validated in the Books? And by which mechanism / which POV?

Given that is taken 18 iterations of 20 page + threads of a bunch of extremely well researched, well read, creative & bright heretics to sift through the clues & get to some answers it may be a shock to average Joe reader to have reveleaed to them that the Others are like the Sidhe etc etc.

Do you think these are GRRM indulgences for those brave enough to go on a heretical journey to the truth? Do you think some, none or all of the Heresys are likely to be revealed? How will that play out in the books?

I don't expect we'll get all of it right, but I'm pretty confident of the core heresy; that the Others are based upon the Sidhe and that there is a Stark connection. This in turn means that the great reveal ought not to be such a shock to the system as might otherwise be the case. as I've said before I'm a lot more comfortable with the notion of the Others being the Sidhe, because I'm familiar with that folklore and it is in a sense as real as the Wars of the Roses, which everyone cheerfully identifies as the primary inspiration for the Game of Thrones. In other words if readers are happy to compare Cersei Lannister with Margaret of Anjou, then they shouldn't find it too difficult to line up Jon as Tam Lin and Val as the Queen of Faerie.

As to the how, where and when. GRRM has said we're going to see what's up there in the Land of Always Winter and although orthodox money appears to be on Bran flying up there, I expect myself that the POV will be far more substantive, and that whether or not he's accompanied by Benjen or anybody else, it will be cold hard Jon who makes the journey and learns the significance of Tam Lin's blue roses.

[Black Crow]

Although, given the fact that "all she see's is Snow" i feel that she senses other, deeper, more powerful magics in Jon beyond just the warg thing .

:agree:

She's encountered other skin-changers at the Wall if not before, yet senses there's something powerful about Jon which goes beyond that, and while we know (or think we know) that's she's not so clever as she esteems herself, I can't help suspecting that if he really was AA even she would manage to recognise him - but she doesn't, which I reckon points to the fact he isn't, but rather has another destiny.

[Budj]

But it is also just like Mel to be biased by her own ego and ignoring signs that what she seeks is literally right in front of her eyes. She doesn't even realize how obsessed she is with Jon.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Well, is pretty mich like figuring a key from its hole. There are millions of options and you will need to make a lot of keys. But once you have figured it out, the key will unlock the door oh so smoothly and it will be so obvious, that the key is shaped the way it is.

Same thing happens here. GRRM will not jump in our faces crying "gothca guys, it was the Sidhe and you never got it". He will let us know the WW more and more and give us a better understanding of them. And once we get told, how the Kings of Winter were actually connected to the WW, it will make perfect sense.

I'm sure Joe Reader will need to know the Sidhe folklore to understand it then. He will get the plot without this. And then there are those who might rember it, when more Sidhe-like properties come up and they will be happy, too, because they can feel much smarter.

And then there are the Heresy guys and galls who will pop a Champaing every time one of them finds or thinks himself right. And that will not be hard to know, because every detailed discussion here serves the one big purpose: see the big picture and make predictions. And when the books are done, we will be a lot wiser as for the outcome of our predictions.

In the end, there may be left a lot of fine details and nuances but we will see many heresies being proofed right or wrong on the spot.

Ser Sceptic agrees with you. He still thinks WW are the Orcs of ASOIAF.

I say we'll find out in Winds. If none of the heretical ideas are clearly and obviously introduced/advanced in Winds... Well, we'll have expended a lot of thought & keystrokes in vain. There's no way that all of this could be unloaded in the final book. If the theories we've put forth here are correct, I don't think it too much of an exaggeration to say that 50-75% of all readers will be thrown for such a loop that they literally no longer understand what is going on. A plot twist is one thing, but some central heretical theories go beyond 'plot twists' to 'multiple total reversals of fundamental knowledge'.

That, and the fact that 99% of our evidence is either circumstantial or open to interpretation, is why Ser Sceptic maintains a healthy scepticism.

With Winds of Winter, we shall see.

[nanother]

Perhaps Melisandre or the guy with the boar can also coach Jon.

Speaking of which, we generally do not associate Warg-abilities w/ the Reds... Yet Melisandre seems to not only recognize it in Jon... She seems to encourage it.

She also has a way of 'distracting' Ghost, which I find slightly disturbing (there's a scene between her and Jon where Ghost stops responding to Jon). Where does that come from? That woman has way too much power :worried:Also interesting that the Wall is melting in her presence, add that to the fact that it's supposedly a hinge of the world and amplifies her powers...not sure what to make of that. I guess a bit of melting is far from her having a substantial effect on the Wall, it might just be that her body radiates extra heat due to the fire magic stuff?

[Ser Leftwich]

:agree:

She's encountered other skin-changers at the Wall if not before, yet senses there's something powerful about Jon which goes beyond that, and while we know (or think we know) that's she's not so clever as she esteems herself, I can't help suspecting that if he really was AA even she would manage to recognise him - but she doesn't, which I reckon points to the fact he isn't, but rather has another destiny.

One theory about Mel and wargs that was put forth involved how she killed Varamyr/Orell's eagle. The idea was that since the eagle was being warged (a kind of magic), it was therefore more susceptible to magic of any kind, named fire magic of Mel's. (I believe this myself, but I do not believe I was the first to come up with it.)

Granted, I don't think there is any consensus about HOW the eagle was made to burn, if even by Mel. But if she could sense it being warged and make the eagle burn, she could likely sense that other people were warging other animals. Could open up some interesting doors.