Jump to content

Jon Snow at the Crossroads of Resurrection Mythology


Recommended Posts

I love this! It is amazing! Good work!

You've reminded me of something too. There are in several religions ultimate creation myths about making order out of chaos, where chaos is usually represented by a dragon. And once the hero/god defeats the dragon/chaos he creates order and can then create the world. It's basically a pre-creation myth. There is one in the Judeo-Christian tradition and I am kicking myself because it's been so long since I've taken my comparative religion classes. But the same similar myth is in several different religions, which is why I remember this discussion (because the same story is present in religions that shouldn't have had the contact to share the story). I am going to have to go back to my books and see if I can find one. But now that you mention the mythology, I am seeing connections with the seasons in chaos and dragons on the loose and wondering if we will need a hero to destroy the dragons and restore order to the seasons. I need to find the actual stories to see if they tie in anywhere. Depending on the actual version I think there was death/rebirth of the hero as well.

It's a pretty common motif in Near-Eastern myth. The most well-known one is the Babylonian myth found in the Enuma Elish (the original mythology can be traced back to the Akkadians). Marduk slays the primordial dragon\sea serpent Tiamat and from her body creates land, sky, and the milky way. Dragons and water are both linked in Near-Eastern mythology as forces of chaos that must be given order by divinely appointed heroes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a pretty common motif in Near-Eastern myth. The most well-known one is the Babylonian myth found in the Enuma Elish (the original mythology can be traced back to the Akkadians). Marduk slays the primordial dragon\sea serpent Tiamat and from her body creates land, sky, and the milky way. Dragons and water are both linked in Near-Eastern mythology as forces of chaos that must be given order by divinely appointed heroes.

Now that is interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can sort of see that. Heracles and Theseus also traveled to the Underworld, too.

But you see Heracles or Theseus never died, unlike Orpheus or Adonis.

Dionysus is the closest for me. Eleftherios one of Dionysus epithets meaning "the liberator" given to him because he frees someone from the every days worries, feelings and in general thinks cares,worries about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But Jon might not die either. ;)

Yes, but he needs to (if he is AA) in order to reborn. Those two go down under took whatever they wanted and left.

When Orpheus (who didn't died either) had to sacrifice something very dear to him (like maybe Jon will do with his vows?) when he was at the surface (he had to let Eurydice at Hades, actualy was his fault).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but he needs to (if he is AA) in order to reborn. Those two go down under took whatever they wanted and left.

When Orpheus (who didn't died either) had to sacrifice something very dear to him (like maybe Jon will do with his vows?) when he was at the surface (he had to let Eurydice at Hades, actualy was his fault).

I'm not sold on the idea that he is AAR, that he will be literally reborn, or that AA is a good guy.

ETA: I hope Mance = Orpheus, for no reason other than I really can't help myself these days. :cool4:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sold on the idea that he is AAR, that he will be literally reborn, or that AA is a good guy.

ETA: I hope Mance = Orpheus, for no reason other than I really can't help myself these days. :cool4:

I don't think you need to hope. Mance just is Orpheus. He lost both his son and Dalla after all.

eta: He made his sacrifice. A seat at the pantheon for Mance please!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sold on the idea that he is AAR, that he will be literally reborn, or that AA is a good guy.

ETA: I hope Mance = Orpheus, for no reason other than I really can't help myself these days. :cool4:

Since Dalla died recently, you might be onto something there. So would then Castle Black be the Underworld, with Jon as Hades?

... which makes the Wildlings coming through the Wall look like thousands dying. Now I'm creeped out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not sure about the inevitability of the mission, as much as "the hero" accepting said mission in the first place. In the introduction of the story, "the Lord" commands to go to Nineveh. That is the capital of the Neo Assyrian Empire, in the vicinity of modern Mosul, Iraq. Jonah has no intention of accepting this mission. He flees towards Joppa (Jaffa) in modern Israel. From there he boards a ship heading for the city of "Tarshish". Which, depending on the interpretation, is either Tarsisi/Tarsus in Cilicia (modern Mersin, Turkey) or Tartessos/Tartessus (in modern Andalusia, Spain). The guy is fleeing.

The fish, whale, whatever, is "the Lord"'s way of bullying Jonah into accepting the mission. Jonah is unique as the prophet who hates this mission, and continues to have arguments with his deity throught the narrative of his book.

Do you think Jon is resisting a mission?...

I think Jon is resisting embracing his skinchanging ability, which could prove crucial down the line. I've also read and somewhat appreciate the theory that Bloodraven and/or Bran engineered the attack to force Jon into a "trauma" that would awaken his abilities, the way Bran's coma did for him...

I can sort of see that. Heracles and Theseus also traveled to the Underworld, too.

But you see Heracles or Theseus never died, unlike Orpheus or Adonis.

Dionysus is the closest for me. Eleftherios one of Dionysus epithets meaning "the liberator" given to him because he frees someone from the every days worries, feelings and in general thinks cares,worries about.

The refusal of the call and the journey to the underworld are also stages in the hero's journey.

As Dimadick points out, Jonah refused the call by fleeing. Jon refused the call when he rode away to join Robb's army. Fortunately, his friends fetched him back. Apple, I think Jon's avoidance of his skin changing ability is part of refusal of the call.

Alternately, learning to skin change and embracing whatever other magical powers that Jon may have might actually be the boon. I'm also hoping he will be in a coma like Bran and get his third eye or third ear or third ball opened or whatever so that he becomes more magical.

The reason all heroes visit the underworld is that it is part of the archetype. In a literary sense, it may be a metaphorical or figurative death, not necessarily a literal one.

I think the rebirth from the underworld is the part of the archetype that makes the heroic story appealing across all cultures. It helps us cope with our mortality. "The hero can be reborn; there's hope for me."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love this! It is amazing! Good work!

You've reminded me of something too. There are in several religions ultimate creation myths about making order out of chaos, where chaos is usually represented by a dragon. And once the hero/god defeats the dragon/chaos he creates order and can then create the world. It's basically a pre-creation myth. There is one in the Judeo-Christian tradition and I am kicking myself because it's been so long since I've taken my comparative religion classes. But the same similar myth is in several different religions, which is why I remember this discussion (because the same story is present in religions that shouldn't have had the contact to share the story). I am going to have to go back to my books and see if I can find one. But now that you mention the mythology, I am seeing connections with the seasons in chaos and dragons on the loose and wondering if we will need a hero to destroy the dragons and restore order to the seasons. I need to find the actual stories to see if they tie in anywhere. Depending on the actual version I think there was death/rebirth of the hero as well.

Tiamat slain by Marduk is the first example of "Hero slays Dragon to create the World" that I can think of. There's also Odin and his brothers slaying Ymir (Not a Dragon, but an Ice Giant) and Mithras slaying the Bull of Heaven (Roman Mithraism has some mysterious connection to Zoroastrianism).

EDIT: Ninja'd :)

EDIT 2: Actually, I started thinking about Mithraism and suddenly remembered it's hierarchical, degree system. I have a feeling there might be some connection to be made, but can't put my finger on it. So I'll just leave it there so you better than me at this can take your guesses. From the lesser to the greater:

Corax, sub Mercurius (Crow under Mercury)

Nymphus, sub Venus ( Bridegroom under Venus)

Miles, sub Mars (Soldier under Mars)

Leo, sub Iupiter (Lion under Jupiter)

Perses, sub Luna (Persian under the Moon)

Heliodromus, sub Sol (Sun-driver under Sun)

Pater, sub Saturnus (Father under Saturn)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another curious connection to the old Norse mythology is the horn of Winter.

In norse mythology when Ragnarok begins, the god Heimdal who guards Bifrost, the road to Valhal, will blow his horn the Gjallarhorn to alarm the Gods that the doom is coming as he sees the chaos forces making their attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Since Dalla died recently, you might be onto something there. So would then Castle Black be the Underworld, with Jon as Hades?

... which makes the Wildlings coming through the Wall look like thousands dying. Now I'm creeped out.


Haha! as much as I associate Mance with Morpheus/ Orpheus, I admit that these are more superficial than necessarily indicators of what I think will really happen. The full parallels aren't quite there- He didn't "look back" or bring death upon her in any way (unless one extends his culpability in making her with child). But (and a big but), I could see Mance's Orpheus role coming to fruition if he descends the bowels of Winterfell and tries bringing something to "the realm of the living." But I only make this connection out of convenience because Mance is physically there.

On a more straightforward note, I still see this part of a journey- going into another realm and bringing something back- as being more related to Jon's "rebirth," whether Jon journeys to the CotF and receives his boon, awakens something in the Wall, or brings something back from the crypts of Winterfell.

Apple mentioned that the Red God's followers will be reborn and given a new life, related to Norse myth. I see a parallel here to the Horn of Joramun, which "wakes the sleepers;" I assume that means the "dead." When Apple first ran the seeds of the OP by me, my first thought regarding the army of undead was the Nights King, who had found a way to "ensorcel" his men (raise them as wights?), and had to be put down by Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell. I'd wondered if the NK initially had this horn to raise and bind souls, and that upon his defeat, Joramun took it and made it his, keeping it safe. Though the Horn is perceived as dangerous and the NK reviled, could this have been the "boon" the CotF gave to the Last Hero? A way to bind the souls of the wights to their commander, which in the right hands, might lead the undead to turn against the Others? Is this why the NW are the "Horns that wake the sleepers?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you need to hope. Mance just is Orpheus. He lost both his son and Dalla after all.

eta: He made his sacrifice. A seat at the pantheon for Mance please!

I'm not sold on the idea that he is AAR, that he will be literally reborn, or that AA is a good guy.

ETA: I hope Mance = Orpheus, for no reason other than I really can't help myself these days. :cool4:

While I love this, Mance doesn't need to be Orpheus lol. If Hades stole his wife, Mance would just go down there and kick his ass to get her back. No need to charm him with music or anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I love this, Mance doesn't need to be Orpheus lol. If Hades stole his wife, Mance would just go down there and kick his ass to get her back. No need to charm him with music or anything.

Do you think Hades would be as happy as Jon was to get his ass kicked? lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but he needs to (if he is AA) in order to reborn.

Not necessarily. It could be a figurative rebirth or an epiphany, a shift in attitude or perspective.

Kudos to Butterbumps (who was my guinea pig for this thread :P) for making the connection between the Horn of Winter as the "horn that wakes the sleepers" and the risen dead who fight in Ragnorak/Armageddon/whatever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...