So, Dany being Azzor Ahai is a red herring?

[The Dragon has three heads]

It may be that the red herring is the prophecy of AA itself. I don't know why we should assume that all the many prophecies or beliefs of main characters are going to come together in the end. It's pretty accepted after what we've heard from and about Martin that he's not intending to wrap this thing up with a nice, big bow.

But surely, SURELY he has to give the reader something to cover the big ones, TOJ, Azor Ahai, origins of the others and the COF(wish listing here)

Danny will serve her own plot, she has all along, look what she has DONE. She's Birthed dragons, sacked cities freed thousands of people from the yoke and she's not even what..15? 16? (14th she married drogo yes? I forget)

She is like the fire the moths gather around and things just "happen" when you're around her. She mounted a dragon with 40,00 people looking on, SHE is the one the singers will sing of.

Tyrion may even be leading up to being her hand, now those characters, as GRRM has written them, could do amazing things together, will they? who knows.

My point is, whatever happens we still get two or more different perspectives of her arc and its place in the overall plot.

We need Danys POV so we can be a part of these formative events for her.

Once the other characters start becoming impressed with her achievements, we'll all feel nostalgic about it. Because we were there, and know why(to a point) she did what she did.

[Grip]

We dont know how Tyrion will handle the dragons, he has just read about them in books..Dany has raised them and ridden one, no book can compete with that. Might be Tyrion can learn but I would never say that he knows more about dragons then someone who has actually been around them for quite some time. Besides she has won battles to. I think Tyrions role at the Blackwater was important but there were other factors that effected the outcome aswell. He did destory much of Stannis fleet yes but would he have held KL if Tywin and the Tyrells didnt show up when they did? The GC were breaking and Jacelyn Bywater, one of Tyrions best men, dead which probably mean that there was no way that whatever remained of the defenders could hold against Stannis. Tyrion sally was brave but wouldnt have mattered much in the long run if Stannis main army had reached the walls. I think Tyrion is alike to Dany in many ways, one being that they both want revenge no matter what. They share other traits aswell. Oh and finally; Jon Snow isnt the legit king, Stannis is.

[Sneak]

From ADWD, chapter 23 (Daenerys IV):

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

The exact foretelling -- or at least how Barristan remembers it -- is that the PTWP would be born of the line of Aerys II and Rhaella; that does not necessarily mean that it has to be one of their children. It could refer to one of their direct descendants. For example, in Lord of the Rings, Aragorn is often described as being of the line of Isildur. All that means is that he could trace his descent directly back to Isildur, not that he was actually Isildur's son. So Jon Snow (if he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son) would be of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Again, the lack of precision in the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy doesn't rule out Dany. It just creates enough wiggle room to allow readers to reach the conclusion that the prophecy could refer to Jon, or maybe (F)Aegon, or maybe even all three working together.

I concede that it is quite ambiguous. I still think AAR is Dany though :) IMO she's fufilled most of the prophecy already.

[The Dragon has three heads]

We dont know how Tyrion will handle the dragons, he has just read about them in books..Dany has raised them and ridden one, no book can compete with that. Might be Tyrion can learn but I would never say that he knows more about dragons then someone who has actually been around them for quite some time. Besides she has won battles to. I think Tyrions role at the Blackwater was important but there were other factors that effected the outcome aswell. He did destory much of Stannis fleet yes but would he have held KL if Tywin and the Tyrells didnt show up when they did? The GC were breaking and Jacelyn Bywater, one of Tyrions best men, dead which probably mean that there was no way that whatever remained of the defenders could hold against Stannis. Tyrion sally was brave but wouldnt have mattered much in the long run if Stannis main army had reached the walls. I think Tyrion is alike to Dany in many ways, one being that they both want revenge no matter what. They share other traits aswell. Oh and finally; Jon Snow isnt the legit king, Stannis is.

Not of the North and Riverlands he isn't...that does belong to Jon snow.

[Lyanna Stark]

I didn't say Dany wasn't charismatic, I said that Jon was a lot better at it. He has shown himself to be much better at inspiring people (even former enemies he betrayed) to follow him and trust in his abilities; which are prodigious.

Jon manages to "inspire" the wildlings because he ticks of a lot of boxes of how to become King North of the Wall. Some of them are intentional, some are not. And I'd say Jon isn't so charismatic as he is a very good negotiatior, he knows how to leverage his assets, he knows how to use his cultural and historical know how. And, more importantly, Jon has learnt his lessons well from his mentors.

She raised the dragons from stone. But Tyrion knows how to train them and he plus Jon will also ride dragons. The fact that she brought them into the world is largely a footnote when the main issue becomes how Jon got his dragon. If he is ice and fire, AA and the legit King; then he is more important to the plot.

It's disingenuous to refer to Dany as a "footnote". She is probably the most important and most controversial person in Essos. Even if you personally think she is a footnote, she is very much the opposite of one inside the ASOIAF story.

To automatically assume that Tyrion will sail in, tame the dragons and hand one to Jon in a golden platter is also very likely not going to happen.

You're underestimating Tyrion. He led the defence of Kings Landing and even inspired soldiers to follow him in a sally outside of the gates. All these suggest that he is an incredible leader who just never got the credit or status he deserved because he was a dwarf and people maligned him for that.

Not so. Check the Tyrion re-read threads where a lot of intelligent posters are evaluating Tyrion's leadership style. The re-read is headed by Ragnorak, Lummel and Butterbumps! and have had excellent additions by a lot of readers shedding a more nuanced light on Tyrion's personality and his leadership style than that he's a maligned dwarf who's just actually brilliant. The current thread is here and contains links to the previous one. You may find them of interest.

What Dany does in Essos isn't relevent. Little more than backstory. There are far more soldiers in Westeros and its here that the main issue will be decided. Jon can rally the North and everyone who hates the Targs; far more of the realm n soldiers than Dany. Having a laborious plot to bring a few thousand exotic soldiers to the fight won't be adding much.

Oh, I disagree. Dany's Essos story may seem tedious to many, but it is highly relevant. Not due to the soldiers she may bring, but due to her character development, the people she may end up gathering to her cause and her eventual way to Westeros (Breaker of Chains, Liberate Old Volantis, etc). More importantly that the amount of Dothraki screamers is how it will define Dany's character, her ruling style, her relationship to her dragons (which is key).

Her story was interesting, but I can't see her having a place in the main plot as part of this trio. The other two have none of her weaknesses and far greater strengths; she has no real role to play in such a grouping. Jon is also the legit King and I could honestly imagine most of her POVs in ADOS being based around her romancing Jon Snow to make that believable. People and factions won't rally around Dany like they will Jon Snow. Her abilities won't be as much of a driving force as Tyrions. She can't train the dragons like Tyrion can. Aside from being the chick in the triumvarate she has little distinct about her and would be very much overshadowed.

Oh dear, you ARE going to be disappointed by the Tyrion re-read. :) To reduce Dany to being "only a chick" is pretty terrible. It completely ignores a lot of her character and her development as a character. It also ignores the nuances in Jon Snow's, Tyrion's and Dany's storylines completely. Your insistence that Tyrion is lily white especially is certainly not true, neither that Dany has nothing important about her at all.

While you are at it checking the re-reads, you may consider going through some of the "Learning to Lead" threads, dedicated to understanding Dany's and Jon's respective journeys in ADWD and their ability or lack thereof, to lead.

[PatrickStormborn]

I didn't say Dany wasn't charismatic, I said that Jon was a lot better at it. He has shown himself to be much better at inspiring people (even former enemies he betrayed) to follow him and trust in his abilities; which are prodigious.

I don't think even Jon's hardcore stans would call him "charismatic"! He's meloncholic and very dry. In contrast, Dany is warm and compassionate. He is ice; she is fire. She won Daario to her cause due to her charisma, and she has tens of thousands of loyal freedmen who would do anything for her.

I'd argue that Dany's charisma is her best asset when it comes to ruling. Jon has many positive qualities, but being charismatic is definitely not one of them.

Not of the North and Riverlands he isn't...that does belong to Jon snow.

I find it pointless to think that the Riverlands will back Jon after we saw the Blackfish's response to him. And I also think it very unlikely that the North will support him; the Northern lords are very anti-wildlings, after all, and Jon is the one who allowed them through the Wall.

[The Dragon has three heads]

I don't think even Jon's hardcore stans would call him "charismatic"! He's meloncholic and very dry. In contrast, Dany is warm and compassionate. He is ice; she is fire. She won Daario to her cause due to her charisma, and she has tens of thousands of loyal freedmen who would do anything for her.

I'd argue that Dany's charisma is her best asset when it comes to ruling. Jon has many positive qualities, but being charismatic is definitely not one of them.

I find it pointless to think that the Riverlands will back Jon after we saw the Blackfish's response to him. And I also think it very unlikely that the North will support him; the Northern lords are very anti-wildlings, after all, and Jon is the one who allowed them through the Wall.

Who knows, maybe Edmure will honor robs will, maybe not.

Lyanna Stark, great post.

[David Selig]

I didn't say Dany wasn't charismatic, I said that Jon was a lot better at it. He has shown himself to be much better at inspiring people (even former enemies he betrayed) to follow him and trust in his abilities; which are prodigious.

Now this is hilarious. Jon's about as charismatic as a block of wood.

He can't even convince many of the men of the Watch to follow him, let alone others.

You're underestimating Tyrion. He led the defence of Kings Landing and even inspired soldiers to follow him in a sally outside of the gates. All these suggest that he is an incredible leader who just never got the credit or status he deserved because he was a dwarf and people maligned him for that.

Tyrion's always been one of the highest ranked men in the realm simply because of his birth without having done anything else to deserve it. How much more status do you think he deserves simply because he led men in one battle? He still got one of the top jobs in the realm after this and one of the most eligible brides. Of course, as usual with Tyrion, he had to whine how he was being snubbed, but looking at it objectively, it wasn't the case at all.

[danm_999]

Now this is hilarious. Jon's about as charismatic as a block of wood.

He can't even convince many of the men of the Watch to follow him, let alone others.

Let's not go too far in the other direction here and paint him as completely uncharismatic. He does win an election, which is a hell of a lot more than Daenerys or Tyrion have done.

He's not Robert Baratheon, but neither is he Stannis Baratheon.

[total1402]

Jon manages to "inspire" the wildlings because he ticks of a lot of boxes of how to become King North of the Wall. Some of them are intentional, some are not. And I'd say Jon isn't so charismatic as he is a very good negotiatior, he knows how to leverage his assets, he knows how to use his cultural and historical know how. And, more importantly, Jon has learnt his lessons well from his mentors.

It's disingenuous to refer to Dany as a "footnote". She is probably the most important and most controversial person in Essos. Even if you personally think she is a footnote, she is very much the opposite of one inside the ASOIAF story.

To automatically assume that Tyrion will sail in, tame the dragons and hand one to Jon in a golden platter is also very likely not going to happen.

Not so. Check the Tyrion re-read threads where a lot of intelligent posters are evaluating Tyrion's leadership style. The re-read is headed by Ragnorak, Lummel and Butterbumps! and have had excellent additions by a lot of readers shedding a more nuanced light on Tyrion's personality and his leadership style than that he's a maligned dwarf who's just actually brilliant. The current thread is here and contains links to the previous one. You may find them of interest.

Oh, I disagree. Dany's Essos story may seem tedious to many, but it is highly relevant. Not due to the soldiers she may bring, but due to her character development, the people she may end up gathering to her cause and her eventual way to Westeros (Breaker of Chains, Liberate Old Volantis, etc). More importantly that the amount of Dothraki screamers is how it will define Dany's character, her ruling style, her relationship to her dragons (which is key).

Oh dear, you ARE going to be disappointed by the Tyrion re-read. :) To reduce Dany to being "only a chick" is pretty terrible. It completely ignores a lot of her character and her development as a character. It also ignores the nuances in Jon Snow's, Tyrion's and Dany's storylines completely. Your insistence that Tyrion is lily white especially is certainly not true, neither that Dany has nothing important about her at all.

While you are at it checking the re-reads, you may consider going through some of the "Learning to Lead" threads, dedicated to understanding Dany's and Jon's respective journeys in ADWD and their ability or lack thereof, to lead.

Its a hypothetical about if they team up. I don't think Dany's just a chick at the minute. I love Daenerys and her story. But if those three teamed up, I don't see how Dany would have a role to play. Not what I'd like at all, but that seems the way of it. Without a role to play, her development would be rather mute if shes not a Targ claiment, AA or the sole dragonrider and overshadowed by the other two in terms of ability.

Yes, Jon Snow is dry, but the end result is actually a lot better than what Dany gets. The series made a moral point with Renly about how having charisma and the glitz wasn't important when compared with other factors like leadership, ability and what not. Indeed the series has hammered this point repeatedly about how the external isn't as important as the internal. Jon, represents that archtype of the humble but able male protagonist who gets people on his side in his own way. Because of this, his way of inspiring people is much better, the only difference is that Brown Ben didn't think to stab Daenerys before he left her service. Plus, ADWD was pretty clear that Jon Snow is a better leader than Daenerys. They've always invited comparisons, even to the point of both having Mormont mentors; so I feel Martin had to have been making a deliberate point about how Jon Snow is better suited to this than Dany. But at the same time, hes also a great military leader who even advises Stannis on strategy and holds the wall with a few hundred men. He has no real flaws and this makes Dany look poor by comparison.

I haven't read the thing on Tyrion. But I'am skeptical that just because Tyrions way wouldn't IMO work in real life doesn't mean it isn't true in Martins world. For instance I didn't agree with Cats POV about how Renly was an idiot playing at war, his pagentry served an important social, status and legitimising action as well as building the allegience of his men. But I felt the authors sentiment was pretty clear on this so I just had to roll with it.

[Lyanna Stark]

I haven't read the thing on Tyrion. But I'am skeptical that just because Tyrions way wouldn't IMO work in real life doesn't mean it isn't true in Martins world. For instance I didn't agree with Cats POV about how Renly was an idiot playing at war, his pagentry served an important social, status and legitimising action as well as building the allegience of his men. But I felt the authors sentiment was pretty clear on this so I just had to roll with it.

Then I suggest you read it and get a more informed opinion. :)

Plus, ADWD was pretty clear that Jon Snow is a better leader than Daenerys. They've always invited comparisons, even to the point of both having Mormont mentors; so I feel Martin had to have been making a deliberate point about how Jon Snow is better suited to this than Dany.

Really? This is an interesting and rather shallow interpretation, completely ignoring the fact that what we see of Dany's leadership is that she lacks mentors and advisers badly. Of the ones around her, Missandei is the best, and she is a ten year old girl. Barristan is often hailed as great, but in fact, looking at the text, he gives her Viserys style advice (Go back to Westeros, the smallfolk will love you. Yeah right!). Jorah is missing, and before that limited in outlook. Jon had the Ned, Jeor Mormont, Ygritte, Mance, Maester Aemon, Donal Noye. A far better collection and also far more culturally relevant than Dany's lot.

In the end, Jon also gets assassinated, while Dany is very much alive, so the end result is actually that Dany succeeded with something that Jon Snow did not: she is still alive. And in the Game of Thrones, you win or you die. (Of course, Jon Snow is probably about to get Rhollored by Mel, but the fact remains: he failed as a leader in that very important regard.)

I actually think both Jon Snow and Dany are similar in more ways than they are disparate as leaders. They are able to see that people are people, and they both want to help people if they can, instead of turning them away. Ideologically, they are not particularly far apart in that.

[PatrickStormborn]

Let's not go too far in the other direction here and paint him as completely uncharismatic. He does win an election, which is a hell of a lot more than Daenerys or Tyrion have done.

He's not Robert Baratheon, but neither is he Stannis Baratheon.

He wins an election because of Sam's intervention, and because he was given control of the Wall. Neither really scream "CHARISMATIC" to me, but YMMV. Dany may not have won an election, but as a female leader she is automatically placed at a disadvantage that Jon will never have to face. I won't even talk about their differences in education...

He's definitely not Stannis Baratheon, but that's not much of a compliment, is it?

[SeanF]

^{Dany is the most charismatic POV in the books. Her entire style of leadership is based on personally inspiring huge numbers of people who have no connection to her or the Targaryens to follow her.}

[danm_999]

He wins an election because of Sam's intervention, and because he was given control of the Wall. Neither really scream "CHARISMATIC" to me, but YMMV.

Consider how we got to that point though.

Sam wouldn't have intervened in the election on Jon's behalf unless Jon had won Sam over previously.

Sam himself wouldn't be in a position to manipulate the election as Maester Aemon's stewart (which Pyke and Mallister hold in regard) if Jon hadn't impressed Maester Aemon with his argument that Sam should be made his steward.

Similarly, if Jon hadn't made many friends amongst his fellow recruits, Sam would never have been able to convince them to help him stop Jon abandoning his post when Robb called his banners.

Sam's arguments that Jon should be Lord Commander wouldn't have their efficacy, if Jon hadn't impressed Mormont enough to be made his squire, and impressed Noye to the extent he found him good enough to hold the Wall.

Jon wouldn't be alive to be elected had he not survived Rattleshirt. He survived Rattleshirt because Ygritte liked him, and convinced others Jon was a "crow come over".

Jon wouldn't be alive to be elected had he not won over Mance Rayder so he didn't kill him out of hand.

Jon's pretty adept at winning over people, meaning his election as Lord Commander wasn't a fluke. It was the result of his ability to consistently win support from the people who matter.

Dany may not have won an election, but as a female leader she is automatically placed at a disadvantage that Jon will never have to face. I won't even talk about their differences in education...

I'd say Dany's gender is an equal handicap to Jon's status as a bastard.

[Grip]

[....] I'd say Dany's gender is an equal handicap to Jon's status as a bastard.

I dont think thats all that true, consider all the bastards we see in rather prominent positions. One example being say the commander of Stannis garrison at Storms End, or the bastards (heh) that have commanded the KG. I'd say Dany's position as a woman is far worse then Jon's as a bastard.

Edit: Walder Rivers is a bastard that has done well, and is vital for the Frey's.

[David Selig]

I was exaggerating in my previous post, of course, but given that Jon's opponents in the election after Pyke and Mallister withdrew their bids had a combined charisma of zero and the whole thing was fixed in Jon's favor to a degree, it really doesn't prove anything about his charisma IMO.

[David C. Hunter]

GRRM said ADWD main characters were Dany, Jon and Tyrion. I tend to think the title 'A Dance with Dragons' is not in reference to actual dragons, but is in reference to the main characters instead. In Dunk and Egg stories more than once a character has a prophetic dreams making them believe a actual dragon will appear, however the dragon in the dream just turned out to be a Targaryen.

Although my personal favourite three heads of the Dragon theory is:

Red dragon = Daenerys Targaryen

Black dragon = Aegon Blackfyre

White dragon = Jon Snow

The Dance of Dragons was meant to show symbolism of most of the characters in that book 'dancing' around the Dragons.

In the east you have Dany in the middle of war in which every sellsword in the world is coming to wax the floor with her. You have Marywn, Tyiron, Jorah, Quentyn(was), Moqorro and Victarion all heading towards her in a dance almost. They are dancing all around her because she is the catalyst to all their arcs.

In the west we now have Aegon who has the Golden Company(also Tyrion for a while), Griffin, and he also has Varys and Illyrio in his corner pulling strings. Arianne Martell is heading towards him(essentially dorne), the Sotmrlords and heading towards him.

the 5th book is called ADWD because all of the storylines are

dancing' around the two Dragons. The same is true if you believe Jon to be a Dragon.

[Lyanna Stark]

I dont think thats all that true, consider all the bastards we see in rather prominent positions. One example being say the commander of Stannis garrison at Storms End, or the bastards (heh) that have commanded the KG. I'd say Dany's position as a woman is far worse then Jon's as a bastard.

Edit: Walder Rivers is a bastard that has done well, and is vital for the Frey's.

Yes, how many female leaders have we seen in ASOIAF who have ruled in their own right apart from Dany?

I think the number is exactly zero. Cersei rules because of Joff and Tommen, and she is reined in by Tyrion and Tywin. Lysa attempted to rule the Vale through Sweetrobin but that was also not in her own right, and she was not popular doing so. The only place with possible female leaders is Dorne.

Apart from them, Dany is completely unique.

Hence I think it can be safely stated female leaders ruling in their own right are extremely rare. And outside Dorne, unheard of.

[Toos]

Yes, how many female leaders have we seen in ASOIAF who have ruled in their own right apart from Dany?

Maege Mormont, Lady Waynwood, Lady Bulwer.

[total1402]

Really? This is an interesting and rather shallow interpretation, completely ignoring the fact that what we see of Dany's leadership is that she lacks mentors and advisers badly. Of the ones around her, Missandei is the best, and she is a ten year old girl. Barristan is often hailed as great, but in fact, looking at the text, he gives her Viserys style advice (Go back to Westeros, the smallfolk will love you. Yeah right!). Jorah is missing, and before that limited in outlook. Jon had the Ned, Jeor Mormont, Ygritte, Mance, Maester Aemon, Donal Noye. A far better collection and also far more culturally relevant than Dany's lot.

In the end, Jon also gets assassinated, while Dany is very much alive, so the end result is actually that Dany succeeded with something that Jon Snow did not: she is still alive. And in the Game of Thrones, you win or you die. (Of course, Jon Snow is probably about to get Rhollored by Mel, but the fact remains: he failed as a leader in that very important regard.)

I actually think both Jon Snow and Dany are similar in more ways than they are disparate as leaders. They are able to see that people are people, and they both want to help people if they can, instead of turning them away. Ideologically, they are not particularly far apart in that.

But both had finished their mentoring stage and left in a position to try it alone at the end of ASOS; Dany declaring her intent to that effect. It wasn't advisors. It was that Barristan planting seeds of doubt over if she was her fathers daughter and her baulking at some of her own actions in ASOS; made her want peace at any cost. She was burned out on bloodshed. It never occured to her that this only emboldened her enemies and made her seem weak; ie the view of the Yunkish soldier Tyrion meets. The fault did lie with herself and she accepts this at the end of ADWD when she has her dreamwalk; acknowledging her failure.

Jons death is purely because he did not have his direwolf on him. It would have leapt on the assasian and scattered the others before he could do anything. So its quite incidental that he died. His successes far outweighed that he met an ignomonius end and the writing portrays him as solving many of the watchs problems efficiently. Dany may get to master a dragon, but again, its incidental to her ability to rule as its portrayed. Jon stood on his own two feet and made more of himself. Dany made less of herself. On its own you could probably write this off as Danys inexperience, age and bad context. But because Jon is the same age, faces similar challenges and has always had parrallels to Dany; it just makes it difficult to make that argument.