Was the Red Wedding as useful a plot point as is often claimed?

[Fetch me a block]

I thought the Red Wedding was a brilliant piece of writing. Heart-wrenching stuff. It is like Ned's death, but on a large scale, and fills you (or me, at least) with more sorrow than surprise, but just as much anger as ever. Before I would have cared if innocent Freys and Lannisters died. After the RW I did not.

All this is fine. However, there is a small problem.

In any book, no matter how much we all claim it is boring and predictable, we want the good guys to ultimately win out, unless its a story like Hamlet were if I remember rightly, everyone dies. ASOIAF/Game of Thrones is noted for treating the heroes a lot rougher than most fictional stories I know of, and this is one of its strengths - Anyone can be killed.

We all know that in the end, the Starks will almost certainly be restored. It would just be a stupid and pointless ending otherwise.

What we don't know, however, is if they will be able to exact their revenge on the Freys and Lannisters (Stannis and the NorthLords will take care of the Boltons). This would be my idea of a bad ending, if the Starks could not exact total revenge on anyone who had anything to do with the Red Wedding and the Lannisters as a whole (bar Tyrion). Why would I read the books otherwise? I know there is a wealth of other great characters, and that I shouldn't demand desired endings etc, but I don't think anyone is in any doubt that the Starks are the leading characters, and certainly some of the most likeable, or designed to be the most likeable.

I know GRRM mentioned that the ending would be 'bittersweet', but it would just be cruel, in my opinion, to not let the Starks have their revenge. I mean, was the Red Wedding really necessary?

So, in short, I want a pyhrric Stark victory, and most Lannisters dead, bar Tyrion. Is that too much to ask for?

EDIT: Overall, I think the Red Wedding was necessary, and clever. I just wanted to see if challenging it would change the views people have on it.

[Mladen]

Starks will have their revenge, because Stannis will deal with Boltons, UnCat is dealing with Freys currently, and Targaryens will deal with Lannisters. There`s no way Starks won`t have their revenge... I think that their bittersweet ending is in acknowledging what they lost and how they changed...

[Ser Leftwich]

"The good ended happily, and the bad unhappily. This is what Fiction means."

The Importance of Being Earnest- Oscar Wilde

[Fetch me a block]

Starks will have their revenge, because Stannis will deal with Boltons, UnCat is dealing with Freys currently, and Targaryens will deal with Lannisters. There`s no way Starks won`t have their revenge... I think that their bittersweet ending is in acknowledging what they lost and how they changed...

That just means other people will have the Starks revenge for them, mostly. Sigh

[Mladen]

That just means other people will have the Starks revenge for them, mostly. Sigh

Well, that`s bittersweet too, right. Inability to revenge on those who have wronged you...

[BericDondarrion]

An overly bad ending is just as cliche and boring as an overly happy ending. It's not "great" writing just to punish the good people in the story because he is trying to say that "heroes/good" people don't exist (they do )

[freetickles]

Having others help them gain their revenge just goes to show how horribly they were wronged, and will help solidify their role in the 7 kingdoms based on those houses that supported them in retaking it.

[Zman1863]

I think by bittersweet GRRM means that not every major character will get everything they want. This might mean things like only indirect revenge. It might mean more major character deaths. It might just be that some of the characters bear scars and wounds that they can never fully recover from. It could mean that whatever triumphs they had came with high costs.

I think the example of Bran's probable course poses a good possible example of what "bittersweet" will mean. A lot of people theorize that Bran will either have the final POV chapter or the epilogue of the final book because of the fact that he will by then have a more expansive POV than anyone else. But to get to that point Bran has to follow his current road to its completion. That means that his abilities will come with the cost of becoming a tree and living in uncommunicative isolation like Bloodraven has. Jon's survival might exact a similar toll.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Ok, the OP seemed to be centered on the RW specifically so I will stay on that. To me yes it was very useful. It brought you back to "anyone can die". For the majority of the 3 books Robb was seen as the one who would exact the Stark revenge, and then, yeah, no so much.

[Fetch me a block]

Well, that`s bittersweet too, right. Inability to revenge on those who have wronged you...

Well yeah, but its a bit too bittersweet

[Woel]

Personally, I don't feel that way about the RW and that the Starks 'deserve' revenge. When I read the books, I see them more as an entirety rather than individual characters or groups of characters. I guess you could say that I don't root for anyone in the sense that I want them to win/get revenge, although I feel for them. For example, the RW made me feel for Cat and Robb + their family, but I don't feel that I want all Freys, Boltons and Lannisters to die. I think the RW was an effective plot point in that it advanced the plot and made for interesting and very engaging reading.

I should perhaps say that I enjoy tragedies, especially bittersweet ones (though perhaps all tragedies are bittersweet). So I when I read a book or otherwise experience a narrative, I can enjoy a conclusion to that narrative where the 'likeable' characters have unhappy individual conclusions to their stories. The point being that I have followed these characters, experienced their hardships and joyous moments, and most of all felt for them.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

Well, that`s bittersweet too, right. Inability to revenge on those who have wronged you...

Jon doesn't know about Slynt's role in Ned's death. Sansa (and probably Arya if she knew, and Ned :P) want revenge on Janos Slynt. They'll probably never know what happened on the Wall and that he died, but many fans think that Jon got vengeance for Ned's death. Sansa got her wish though. What is your take on this.

[rejndjer]

i think the bittersweet part about the ending would be, that, not all pov characters will die, but they won't be who they are now, meaning they won't be likeable characters.

something like prince arthas in warcraft 3, he's trying to save his ppl, he's a good guy.. then BAM he's a fuckin prince of death.

[Mladen]

Jon doesn't know about Slynt's role in Ned's death. Sansa (and probably Arya if she knew, and Ned :P) want revenge on Janos Slynt. They'll probably never know what happened on the Wall and that he died, but many fans think that Jon got vengeance for Ned's death. Sansa got her wish though. What is your take on this.

It`s not the same. Jon had other reason to kill Slynt, and that had nothing to do with Ned. That wasn`t revenge. I think of more Hamlet style `To be or not to be`, for Starks revenge is that...They will have it, or they won`t be...The beauty of revenge is in looking someone in the eyes and telling him why are you killing him so his last thought would be that he is killed because of his crime...

[locke and key]

The starks don't necesarily need to revenge themselves aginst people, they're not that kind of people, I think just their return to power will be the equivalent of sticking a giant middle finger up to the freys and boltons who have tried to remove them from power,

if I'm honest I don't think the starks necesarily need to take action against the lannisters, I think the OP associates them a bit too much with being nothing more than the horrible enemies of the starks. They never actually hated them, Tywin mainly organised the red wedding as a quick and easy way of removing robb as an enemy, If they'd sued for peace, he'd have happily let them rule the north, the main reason the lannisters tried to remove them from power was because they rebelled against them and the lannisters pay their debts, I think that he was fine with them ruling the north and respected their ability to endure winters "the starks understand winter better than any of us can" and control their people he just didn't like them coming down south and messing around in their family affairs, Most of the other lannisters seem to uphold the same idea, for instance cersei didn't want ned dead just out of the way and sent to the wall, and jaime was horrified when aerys burned brandon and rickard. and tyrion was appaled by the red wedding.

So i don't see why you think they need to take down the lannisters, However, I do agree with you about bolton and frey, roose hated all the starks with a vengeance like all boltons and Walder hated Robbs guts for thinking he could just get away with marrying another woman.

However, the sweet irony is both of these houses are gonna collapse anyway as although house lannister is falling apart at the moment it can and will put itself together as grrm they've lasted as long as the starks and have just as much control over there people (since the reynes no other house in the westerlands has anywhere near enough power/political will and determination to rule there they all just follow in the lannisters footsteps like obedient dogs) and GRRM's invested too much into their way and characters to let them all die out, plus they have hope of salavge from the useless leadership of cersei in both tyrion and jaime (sorry I know this is a bit of a tangent, I'll get back too the main point now) I can see no way of house bolton getting out of this situation in winterfell alive, and since the death of stevron and the arrival of stoneheart, the freys have been pulling themselves apart, they'll keep killing off the next in line, and although Lord walder Won't actually be killed in any way (He's too clever too let anyone have the opportunity to do that) but when he dies and it's gotta be soon, the freys will have no stable leadership and just end up killing each other off until there's few to none of them left.

So, in conclusion, theres no need for the starks to do any revenging just the idea of them coming back on the scene, when none of the wedding planners ever expected to see them again is enough, but also as Woel wisely said, I didn't think necesarily that i wanted every single frey, bolton and lannister dead because although I feel for the starks i also have sympathy for the freys (although, at least 80% of them are silly complaining weasely arses like merret and Emmon some of them are brilliant tactical geniuses on a par with littlefinger: the original Lord walder and black walder who take no shit from other houses just because they think they're better than them and can marry who the hell they want) who got insulted and shamed by robbs denial of their marriage and are looked down upon by every other house in westeros (even before the RW) and although I think the red wedding was horrible and one of the closes examples of true evil in this series, it's been their undoing as well as the starks as it lead to everyone hating them and unCat being ressurected to kill them all off. I also love lord Bolton as he's another of those people like Lord tywin who command fear and who you've got to watch out for, and in my book any man who has the sheer presence that he can shut the Greatjon up must be pretty damm cool

[locke and key]

Also if you're looking for someone who the starks will revenge sansa's almost certainly gonna ruin littlefinger at some point in the future

[Ramsay Gimp]

Sorry, but your preferences for how the story should go are pretty arbitrary. I don't really care whether the Starks get vengeance or not - there are much bigger fish to fry in the story.

Actually, I think the story would be cheapened a bit if every villain got their comeuppance. For example, maybe most of the Freys are killed but Black Walder still ends up holding the Twins at the end, escaping his fate because of the fact that people are sick of war and the Others have arrived. Maybe Ramsay is killed but Roose manages to keep the Dreadfort, handing the North back to one of the Starks. Etc, etc...

[Fetch me a block]

Jon doesn't know about Slynt's role in Ned's death. Sansa (and probably Arya if she knew, and Ned :P) want revenge on Janos Slynt. They'll probably never know what happened on the Wall and that he died, but many fans think that Jon got vengeance for Ned's death. Sansa got her wish though. What is your take on this.

Slynt is just one of the conspirators. All of the conspirators deserve death, its about time Cersei, Jaime etc. were killed

[Ramsay Gimp]

Slynt is just one of the conspirators. All of the conspirators deserve death, its about time Cersei, Jaime etc. were killed

See, your preferred ending means wiping out pretty much an entire House of main characters. It's very biased

[Fetch me a block]

The starks don't necesarily need to revenge themselves aginst people, they're not that kind of people, I think just their return to power will be the equivalent of sticking a giant middle finger up to the freys and boltons who have tried to remove them from power,

if I'm honest I don't think the starks necesarily need to take action against the lannisters, I think the OP associates them a bit too much with being nothing more than the horrible enemies of the starks. They never actually hated them, Tywin mainly organised the red wedding as a quick and easy way of removing robb as an enemy, If they'd sued for peace, he'd have happily let them rule the north, the main reason the lannisters tried to remove them from power was because they rebelled against them and the lannisters pay their debts, I think that he was fine with them ruling the north and respected their ability to endure winters "the starks understand winter better than any of us can" and control their people he just didn't like them coming down south and messing around in their family affairs, Most of the other lannisters seem to uphold the same idea, for instance cersei didn't want ned dead just out of the way and sent to the wall, and jaime was horrified when aerys burned brandon and rickard. and tyrion was appaled by the red wedding.

So i don't see why you think they need to take down the lannisters, However, I do agree with you about bolton and frey, roose hated all the starks with a vengeance like all boltons and Walder hated Robbs guts for thinking he could just get away with marrying another woman.

However, the sweet irony is both of these houses are gonna collapse anyway as although house lannister is falling apart at the moment it can and will put itself together as grrm they've lasted as long as the starks and have just as much control over there people (since the reynes no other house in the westerlands has anywhere near enough power/political will and determination to rule there they all just follow in the lannisters footsteps like obedient dogs) and GRRM's invested too much into their way and characters to let them all die out, plus they have hope of salavge from the useless leadership of cersei in both tyrion and jaime (sorry I know this is a bit of a tangent, I'll get back too the main point now) I can see no way of house bolton getting out of this situation in winterfell alive, and since the death of stevron and the arrival of stoneheart, the freys have been pulling themselves apart, they'll keep killing off the next in line, and although Lord walder Won't actually be killed in any way (He's too clever too let anyone have the opportunity to do that) but when he dies and it's gotta be soon, the freys will have no stable leadership and just end up killing each other off until there's few to none of them left.

So, in conclusion, theres no need for the starks to do any revenging just the idea of them coming back on the scene, when none of the wedding planners ever expected to see them again is enough, but also as Woel wisely said, I didn't think necesarily that i wanted every single frey, bolton and lannister dead because although I feel for the starks i also have sympathy for the freys (although, at least 80% of them are silly complaining weasely arses like merret and Emmon some of them are brilliant tactical geniuses on a par with littlefinger: the original Lord walder and black walder who take no shit from other houses just because they think they're better than them and can marry who the hell they want) who got insulted and shamed by robbs denial of their marriage and are looked down upon by every other house in westeros (even before the RW) and although I think the red wedding was horrible and one of the closes examples of true evil in this series, it's been their undoing as well as the starks as it lead to everyone hating them and unCat being ressurected to kill them all off. I also love lord Bolton as he's another of those people like Lord tywin who command fear and who you've got to watch out for, and in my book any man who has the sheer presence that he can shut the Greatjon up must be pretty damm cool

I'd note emboldened; I do indeed view the Lannisters as evil. Because to me, they are. Only having the Boltons and Freys lose but not also the Lannisters is, to me, the equivalent of not getting the Christmas present you want. If the Starks don't at least crush the Lannisters then that's basically GRRM saying to me that the heroes of the book, your heroes and my heroes, are pathetic, weak and stupid.