Is Arya going to die?

[silentwanderer]

Hey guys this is my first topic i hope i do this properly.I know this has been discussed before but too little people focus on the part i want to share.

This is the dream Jon is telling to Sam:

''Jon tells Sam of a recurring dream he has of Winterfell. He dreams he is walking in a long, empty hall in the castle, his voice echoing around him and no one is answering. He is looking for someone, but he isn't sure who, sometimes it is his father, sometimes Robb, or Arya, or even Benjen. But he never finds anyone, the castle is always empty. Even the ravens are gone, and the stables are full of bones. It scares him, and he runs around looking for someone. Then he finds himself in front of the door to the crypts, and he knows he has to go down there, but he doesn't want to. He's afraid of what is waiting for him. Not the old Kings of Winter, but something else. He screams that he is not a Stark, that it isn't his place, but it is no good and he feels he has to go down, so he starts, with no torch to light his way. It gets darker and darker, until he wants to scream, and then he wakes up.''

People usually focus on the crypts part but there are no or little comments about the first part of the dream,and the crypts part i think its too vague.Now let's see what we have:

-Jon sees winterfell empty and no one is there to answer him

-then Jon starts seeking his family but no one answers....and that made me thinking. He only calls for his Father, Robb, Benjen and Arya

suppose this is a prophetic dream, we know for fact that winterfell now is ruined,refered as empty in his dream, Ned and Robb are dead so there are not answering him,and also only searches for Benjen and Arya.Benjen's fate is yet unknown but either he is dead or not he future seems dark

The absense of seasrching for Bran and Rikkon in his dream, even Sansa's as a last resort hit me with the realization that he only sees the Starks that end up dead.So i believe that Arya is going to die,and i mean die not sacrificied or anything.What's your opinion?

I was stuck on the voice being Lyanna's, since Jon never met her he thought of the 4 Starks closer to him: Arya (his little sister), Robb (his closer brother), Benjen (his actual brother since both took the black) and Ned (because he was the only parent Jon ever had).

I took it as a hint towards the theory Jon might be Lyanna's son more than anything else.

[direwienerdog]

I agree it's not looking good for Arya. There was the dream by Jon as mentioned in the original post, Jon's words and then when she wished death on herself (ie wishing the princess died).

I do find it strange that Arya gets a pass for her many crimes, but Joffrey who is not much older is viewed as the devil incarnate.

When did survival become a crime? The only crime if you want to call it that is a law as old as the wall. The killing of Daeron was Stark style justice.

These instances of Arya's old life keep showing through and in order to survive she is told to forget them. As she learns more of the FM ways she learns how to conceal Arya the Wolf Girl. She conceals them but never forgets her father's saying. The lone wolf dies.

The fact she is unwilling to give up her old ways, I think , shows us she will get back to Westeros one way or another.

If she didn't kill in Westeros Arya would have died long ago.

If she doesn't stay with the FM and do there bidding she would be killed by them for knowing to much.

It's a harsh world and Arya is adapting in order to survive.

[Morienthar]

She will be dead by spring.

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

[Lala]

First of all, belated welcome to forums! I hadn't thought about Jon's dream in this context, great analysis!

She will be dead by spring.

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

This would actually be a neat piece of foreshadowing when you put it in this context - great catch!

I just wanted to put a quick note that if we accept R+L=J, then it is possible that Jon's dreams are prophetic, since the Targaryens have the hereditary power of prophetic dreams - Dany has manifested this in her dragon dreams, and it wouldn't be strange if Jon manifested this ability in some form as well.

[hardhome]

She will be dead by spring.

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

Only if she remains hiding.

Jeyne Poole liked needlepoint so she could end up dead with a needle in her hand and most of Westros thinks its Arya as well. Remember 1 thing GRRM likes throwing unexpected things at the audience, and much of the foreshadowing and prophesies are deliberately ambiguous.

[mrunderhill]

When did survival become a crime? The only crime if you want to call it that is a law as old as the wall. The killing of Daeron was Stark style justice.

No it was murder plain and simple. As was her murder of the guard. A man still loyal to her brother and fighting for her family. Then there is the old insurance man as well.

[Blueberry Stark]

It's probably only coincidental, but it should be noted that the people Jon is looking for - Benjen, Ned, and Arya - are the family members who, like Jon, have the "Stark" look. It's pointed out that all of the other kids favor the Tullys more than the Starks. Perhaps on a subconscious level this has influenced Jon?

I don't think that Arya will survive the series, but I hope that I am wrong. The quotation about Arya "sewing" through winter and her ominous encounter with the dwarf lady (sorry, I can't remember her name) all foreshadow her death.

[Lala]

No it was murder plain and simple. As was her murder of the guard. A man still loyal to her brother and fighting for her family. Then there is the old insurance man as well.

I think there's a distinction to be drawn between Arya and Joffrey though. Arya kills out of instinct - in http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845, the new interview that another forum-er has kindly posted, Martin compares Arya to a child soldier. While child soldiers should, I agree, have some level of accountability for what they do, it is also important to consider the mitigating factors of youth, impressionability, trauma, and environment. More importantly, with the man she assassinates in Braavos, it is an assassination that Arya is told is a "gift" - remember, she is being taught that in killing that man (who, by all accounts, is a very bad man) she is acting as an instrument of the gods and doing an act of mercy - valar morghulis. Death, in Arya's world, isn't something that is terrible or fearful, it is simply a natural part of life and it is irrelevant whether it comes earlier or later.

Joffrey on the other hand, is deliberately cruel and violent because he enjoys it. He kills for no other reason except that it gives him pleasure to see other people/living creatures in pain - and he kills in the most sadistic manner possible at the time.

It's probably only coincidental, but it should be noted that the people Jon is looking for - Benjen, Ned, and Arya - are the family members who, like Jon, have the "Stark" look. It's pointed out that all of the other kids favor the Tullys more than the Starks. Perhaps on a subconscious level this has influenced Jon?

I don't think that Arya will survive the series, but I hope that I am wrong. The quotation about Arya "sewing" through winter and her ominous encounter with the dwarf lady (sorry, I can't remember her name) all foreshadow her death.

I don't want Arya to die either :crying: I'm not terribly fond of her as a character, but I'm extremely fond of Sansa and Cat, and I don't want Arya to die simply because of the love I bear for them. Also, Martin has killed off too many Starks already :bawl:

Though the encounter with the dwarf lady might also imply that Arya will be one of the few Starks to survive the series:

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. “I see you,” she whispered. “I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death...” She began to sob, her little body shaking. “You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!”

If Arya dies, then technically, I would assume that the grief should belong to Sansa or Jon or the other surviving Starks. But the Ghost clearly states that the grief belongs to Arya - and connects the grief to the grief that she gorged on at Summerhall, another instance in which members of a family perished. This seems to indicate that Arya will be the one mourning the loss of her family. On the other hand, since this is before the RW, it could simply be a prophecy of Arya's grief at the deaths of Cat and Robb.

[Morienthar]

If Arya dies, then technically, I would assume that the grief should belong to Sansa or Jon or the other surviving Starks. But the Ghost clearly states that the grief belongs to Arya - and connects the grief to the grief that she gorged on at Summerhall, another instance in which members of a family perished. This seems to indicate that Arya will be the one mourning the loss of her family. On the other hand, since this is before the RW, it could simply be a prophecy of Arya's grief at the deaths of Cat and Robb.

She has also caused quite a bit of grief I expect.

[Lala]

She has also caused quite a bit of grief I expect.

I suppose so. Or at least has the potential to create much more if she truly embraces her role as a FM. Hrm maybe it's time to lurk back into the Becoming No One thread

[C0bR]

No it was murder plain and simple. As was her murder of the guard. A man still loyal to her brother and fighting for her family. Then there is the old insurance man as well.

I would agree that the killing of the guard was a murder. Killing of Dareon was justice.

[JagLover]

if she is going to die I hope she gets her vengeance first, because then I feel she will be at peace with that outcome and treat it as a fair exchange.

[silentwanderer]

The only reason I'd believe Arya is going to die is because I already seen it happen: the last Stark girl that hid, Lyanna, died in a bloody bed with her brother Ned for only company and the Baratheon that fought for her never got to be the same again.

It would be the exact same scenario with Gendry in the place of the Baratheon, a Stark brother of choice in the place of Ned and Arya in the place of Lyanna.

I don't think that Arya will survive the series, but I hope that I am wrong. The quotation about Arya "sewing" through winter and her ominous encounter with the dwarf lady (sorry, I can't remember her name) all foreshadow her death.

The Maegi forshadowed Arya was going to bring death to this world (Great switch to Melisandre on the TV show, by the way!), not that she was going to die herself.

[grand old duke of stark]

I haven't kept a catalog but don't consider many if any of Arya's killings murder. She is a scared, traumatised, and partially trained child who is trying to survive in a world that has been particularly cruel and incomprehensible to her. Every killing had some justification, whether escape, revenge, or punishment (Dareon). She also accepted the rationalisation of the Kindly Man about assassinating the insurance man. Arya is not a murderer, but she has a lethal streak to be sure. Interesting that she did not give Sandor the mercy, perhaps because she hated him, perhaps because she pitied him, perhaps because she wanted him to suffer--or all three. But in her eyes that also would have been closest to cold-blooded murder of someone she knows and who has helped her.

When Nymeria attacked Joffrey, it was a justified action. This scared child has had little guidance, but she is in touch with her inner wolf. I hope she lives and thrives, once she's learned to restrain those impulses. And if she smelled of grief to the dwarf, well she had known nothing but grief since going to KL, and especially since Ned's execution. Every supposed respite had been cruelly taken away from her. No wonder she emanated grief, hatred, etc.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Yes, she will die.

I can't fathom why you started a discussion on the question of Arya being immortal. Bran maybe, but Arya? She isn't being trained to be an Old God like Bran, she's training to be an assassin. In the books there is no evidence whatsoever of faceless men being immune to death, so I think this topic is ridiculous and trolling at best.

[Cat of the Banal]

I am trying to hold on to hope that the death prophesies refer to fake Arya. Now that Jeyne's face has been disfigured with frost bite, it will be easier for her to pass as the poor supposedly recently disfigured Arya. I am sure GRRM plans on some Arya switching shenanigans. I can see Arya disguised as a serving wench waiting on Farya. That would be an epic scene.

[Cat of the Banal]

I am trying to hold on to hope that the death prophesies refer to fake Arya. Now that Jeyne's face has been disfigured with frost bite, it will be easier for her to pass as the poor supposedly recently disfigured Arya. I am sure GRRM plans on some Arya switching shenanigans. I can see Arya disguised as a serving wench waiting on Farya. That would be an epic scene.

[Cat of the Banal]

Sorry for double post. Phone posting.

[ARYa_Nym]

Everyone else in Jon's dream is dead. If Benjen is Coldhands then he was killed long ago.

This interview confirms some things I've been saying:

So people have this idea that back when Ice and Fire started as a trilogy, you had an outline where there was a single line that went, "And meanwhile, nobles squabble over power in Westeros." And that line turned into the middle three or four books of the series. Is there any truth to that?

It's a grotesque exaggeration, but there's at least a nugget of truth to it, yeah. You introduce characters, and sometimes they take on a life of their own.

Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing.

He knew early on how Arya's story was going to pan out. A lot of the death foreshadowing is in the beginning.

So when you had first introduced Arya, you knew she was going to become an assassin?

Well she's not an assassin yet. You are assuming she is going to become one. She's an apprentice.

But she's already going around killing people and she's learned a lot of the secrets.

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

If becoming no one is an assumption then that ups the chance that the death is literal rather than symbolic.

The Ghost also said that Arya smelled of death more than a several times reanimated zombie. Anyways, I agree that it's the death she will bring. The Ghost of High Heart was the one who told Aegon V of the prophecy. Because of that Aegon may have tried to hatch a dragon egg and her precious Jenny was killed as well as others. So Arya may do something on that vein. She already indirectly caused the Saltpans massacre.

There's the I hope your princess dies line.

The lone wolf dies. Arya calls herself the lone wolf in AFFC.

Ned tells her that she may end up like Lyanna. Dead before her time.

The inspiration for Cat of the Canals is similar to the Lyanna in the sense that she died young and of a fever.

In Dublin's fair city,

Where the girls are so pretty,

I first set my eyes on sweet Molly Malone,

As she wheeled her wheel-barrow,

Through streets broad and narrow,

Crying, "Cockles and mussels, alive, alive, oh!"

"Alive, alive, oh, Alive, alive, oh",

Crying "Cockles and mussels, alive, alive, oh".

She was a fishmonger,

But sure 'twas no wonder,

For so were her father and mother before,

And they each wheeled their barrows,

Through streets broad and narrow,

Crying, "Cockles and mussels, alive, alive, oh!"

(chorus)

She died of a fever,

And no one could save her,

And that was the end of sweet Molly Malone.

Now her ghost wheels her barrow,

Through streets broad and narrow,

Crying, "Cockles and mussels, alive, alive, oh!"

The things she said are similar to what Arya says. Cat lives with a fishmonger. Molly was a prostitute and Arya hangs out with them. She dies of a fever and becomes a ghost.

Arya has already pretended to be a ghost. If Arya reminds the Ghost of Jenny there is a song about her ghost dancing in the halls of the dead. Arya also has a basic similarity of being a girl who blends in with the NW during her time with Yoren. Dany Flint is another who died young and has songs of her ghost.

She has a death and the maiden motif in her arc. The maiden usually dies. She has similarity to characters who die as well.

As for needing to die because she kills people there are tons of characters in front of her. Some of whom may survive.

Anyways, it could still be symbolic if she lets her Arya identity and she goes off into hiding. Perhaps from the FM. If she goes to WF she'll be right where they can find her.

Or she is a Frodo and just can't take it and feels the need to leave of her volition.

The promise to Parris is no guarantee.

2. George R. R. Martin Will Kill Anyone

Martin's wife Parris once told Weiss and Benioff that she knew a certain character would survive until the end. How? Her husband had promised not to kill her favorite character. When Weiss and Benioff later mentioned this to Martin, he impishly said, "Oh, I just told her that." The upshot: nobody's safe.

http://www.lamag.com/laculture/culturefilesblog/2013/05/06/5-things-i-learned-about-game-of-thrones-from-the-shows-writers

[Jayc]

This passage and the thread have been a great read. thanks

First, I hope Ayra lives. I believe if she does die, it will be figurative as she becomes no one. I would like her one last time let Jon or Sansa or Rickon know that she is alive before dissappearing as no one.

In a strange twist of fate, imagine if Ramsey hired the FM to kill Arya (really Jenna) as vengence for leaving him. The FM send the real Ayra to kill the fake Ayra. Or the FM use another of their kind to kill the real Ayra.