Why I believe Aegon is Genuine (and why it won't matter in the GoT)i

[Neilos]

First off, it's my first thread, so be kind! This is just something I was thinking over at work today, and I'm still not entirely certain about it, but it seems to fit-- at least thematically. I'd like to hear what you guys think.

I believe Aegon is genuinely Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar and blood heir to the Targaryen line. I also believe that ultimately, this won't matter in the game of thrones (though it will be of some importance for Dany's personal arc).

What originally had me thinking about this was one of the visions Dany encountered in the House of the Undying; she sees Rhaegar holding the newly-born Aegon and saying,

He is the prince that was promised. His is the song of Ice and Fire.

This is, IIRC, the only use of the series' name itself, and you would expect it to be in a context of some significance. It never seemed to fit that the "song of ice and fire" belonged to a child who died before he could walk. I remember thinking this long before I knew that Aegon had supposedly secretly survived.

It also doesn't really gel with me that individuals such as Varys and JonCon would be mistaken about the child's identity. JonCon loved the father, and surely would recognise some of him in the son. Varys seems to know bloody everything, and it strikes me that for him to commit himself to Aegon so dangerously-- killing Pycelle and Kevan, ending his long charade-- he must be damn sure that the kid is of great skill, blood or importance. Cerainly, Varys mentions the rigorous training Young Griff has been put through, but I still don't believe he would throw himself behind some petty conspiracy, unless the child was one of a kind.

Now, here's the important bit; I also believe Aegon is indeed the "Mummer's Dragon", and that his bloodline will, in the end, avail him nothing. We learned from Viserys that simply being a Targaryen doesn't make you a dragon; we all know he was "less than the shadow of a snake". What's more, we really haven't seen anything to suggest great skill or leadership from Aegon; in fact, in "The Griffon Reborn" chapter, he comes across as headstrong, arrogant, and entitled.

Varys is still the "mummer", and it takes more than a Targaryen to make a dragon. This is the real crux of why I believe this: Aegon's purpose in the story is to convince Daenerys that her greatness and her legitimacy do not come from her bloodline. Her greatness comes from the horrors she has seen and experienced, the empathy she has developed. One of her remaining hangups is that the idea of inheritance and birthright still cling to her, and she still entertains notions of "right by birth".

As Jorah tried to tell her, that is never truly how she will come to power. I believe Aegon is genuinely the legal Targaryen heir, but that he will serve to show Daenerys just how meaningless birthright is, and that her own legitimacy comes from her experiences and skill. Perhaps this will even help her come to terms with the Mad King's crimes? Whatever happens, it seems to me that Daenerys defeating the legal blood heir of the Targaryens would be a far more meaningful chapter in her story arc than simply defeating a liar's conspiracy.

What do you ladies and gents think? :leaving: (I'd also like to add that while I've talked a lot about Dany's fitness and legitimacy, that doesn't necessarily mean I think she'd be the best for job, or that I think she'll get it. I'm talking purely about her personal story arc here).

[Aderyn the Sly]

...

Now, here's the important bit; I also believe Aegon is indeed the "Mummer's Dragon", and that his bloodline will, in the end, avail him nothing. We learned from Viserys that simply being a Targaryen doesn't make you a dragon; we all know he was "less than the shadow of a snake". What's more, we really haven't seen anything to suggest great skill or leadership from Aegon; in fact, in "The Griffon Reborn" chapter, he comes across as headstrong, arrogant, and entitled.

Varys is still the "mummer", and it takes more than a Targaryen to make a dragon. This is the real crux of why I believe this: Aegon's purpose in the story is to convince Daenerys that her greatness and her legitimacy do not come from her bloodline. Her greatness comes from the horrors she has seen and experienced, the empathy she has developed. One of her remaining hangups is that the idea of inheritance and birthright still cling to her, and she still entertains notions of "right by birth".

As Jorah tried to tell her, that is never truly how she will come to power. I believe Aegon is genuinely the legal Targaryen heir, but that he will serve to show Daenerys just how meaningless birthright is, and that her own legitimacy comes from her experiences and skill. Perhaps this will even help her come to terms with the Mad King's crimes? Whatever happens, it seems to me that Daenerys defeating the legal blood heir of the Targaryens would be a far more meaningful chapter in her story arc than simply defeating a liar's conspiracy.

...

I like this part. I think a large part of what I didn't like about Dany at first was her entitlement attitue. When she starts freeing slaves and conquoring the cities in Slavor's bay, she has no birthright there, just the right of conquest, so it makes sense that her attitue will change over time. She certainly has a soft heart for the peasents, and her cupbarers who were supposed to be her hostages. "Save the kingdom to win the throne," although said by Stannis, I think will ultimitly apply to Dany as well if/when she even gets around to returning to Westeros. (Which she might not-I could see her staying in Essos to rule there)

In your theory does Dany know that he is Rhaegar's true son? Because the way that Dany treasure's her brothers memory (even without knowing him) makes it seem to me that while she would slay someone in her way, she wouldn't murder her nephew by her brother she adores. If she sees him as a pretender, then I'm sure she would challenge him.

As for the vision in the HotU, I never believed that one was a true vision. We are told that some are the past, some are of the future, and some will never come to pass. But everyone seems to forget the "will never come to pass" part. And even if it is true, we don't know that it was Rhaegar in the vision, Daenerys assumes it is because she thinks he looks like Viserys at first, then thinks of it as Rhaegar because of Aegon and the man playing the harp. It very well could have been another Aegon, such as Aegon the Conquorer. I think Dany puts too much trust in prophacies to be honest, and it will eventually burn her the way that Maggy the Frog's burned Cersei.

[Neilos]

In your theory does Dany know that he is Rhaegar's true son? Because the way that Dany treasure's her brothers memory (even without knowing him) makes it seem to me that while she would slay someone in her way, she wouldn't murder her nephew by her brother she adores. If she sees him as a pretender, then I'm sure she would challenge him.

I imagine that Dany would deny it at first, perhaps come to recognise Aegon as genuine, and finally come to realise that he's still just a mummer's dragon after all. It's a good point, though, about Dany's willingness to strike out against her nephew... perhaps if Aegon makes it abundantly clear he's no valiant Rhaegar during his attack on Storm's End.

[PrimeRhaegar]

i like this theory i rep it as of now good show nelios

[Arcvalons]

I think it would be more interesting if it's a Blackfyre conspiracy. Only because I want to see Blackfyres involved.

[Myvince]

good theory but I don't he is Rhaegar son. And with Varys. I don't believe he is the real deal.

[WakeTheDragon]

I agree with everything you just said

[Iroh]

I believe Aegon is genuinely Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar and blood heir to the Targaryen line. I also believe that ultimately, this won't matter in the game of thrones (though it will be of some importance for Dany's personal arc).

Now, here's the important bit; I also believe Aegon is indeed the "Mummer's Dragon", and that his bloodline will, in the end, avail him nothing. We learned from Viserys that simply being a Targaryen doesn't make you a dragon; we all know he was "less than the shadow of a snake". What's more, we really haven't seen anything to suggest great skill or leadership from Aegon; in fact, in "The Griffon Reborn" chapter, he comes across as headstrong, arrogant, and entitled.

Varys is still the "mummer", and it takes more than a Targaryen to make a dragon. This is the real crux of why I believe this: Aegon's purpose in the story is to convince Daenerys that her greatness and her legitimacy do not come from her bloodline. Her greatness comes from the horrors she has seen and experienced, the empathy she has developed. One of her remaining hangups is that the idea of inheritance and birthright still cling to her, and she still entertains notions of "right by birth".

As Jorah tried to tell her, that is never truly how she will come to power. I believe Aegon is genuinely the legal Targaryen heir, but that he will serve to show Daenerys just how meaningless birthright is, and that her own legitimacy comes from her experiences and skill. Perhaps this will even help her come to terms with the Mad King's crimes? Whatever happens, it seems to me that Daenerys defeating the legal blood heir of the Targaryens would be a far more meaningful chapter in her story arc than simply defeating a liar's conspiracy.

I hope for Aegon to be a true heir Targaryen, he and JonCon dedicated all their lives for this moment for a chance to get everthing they lost. He can do many great things even if he don´t take the IT, he can help rebuild his House, he can help rebuild the forces of 7K have to face the Others and I am curious to read chapters that I can see him use all he learned these years about how to be a King.

And even if he is fake, I hope Aegon can learn that there is many people that need help/justice and desperate need a good person to lead them...about how to rebuild their villages and give peace for them to restart their lives.

"It also doesn't really gel with me that individuals such as Varys and JonCon would be mistaken about the child's identity. JonCon loved the father, and surely would recognise some of him in the son. Varys seems to know bloody everything, and it strikes me that for him to commit himself to Aegon so dangerously-- killing Pycelle and Kevan, ending his long charade-- he must be damn sure that the kid is of great skill, blood or importance. Cerainly, Varys mentions the rigorous training Young Griff has been put through, but I still don't believe he would throw himself behind some petty conspiracy, unless the child was one of a kind."

JonCon is a good man but he is the only person that can 100% mistake about the child's identity just because he desperate need a chance to see a Rhaegar son on the IT.

"What originally had me thinking about this was one of the visions Dany encountered in the House of the Undying; she sees Rhaegar holding the newly-born Aegon and saying,"

This will be off-topic...I think Rhaegar was right when he thinked his son would be the one, but the same was true for Dany when she thinked that her son would live to be a conqueror...yeah these things don´t become true but are not a lie either....Jon became Rhaegar son who would be the PtwP...and Dany birth 3 "sons" dragons...dragons are more than just conquerors they are a living legend.

[manting]

I like the theory but what is the payoff? He dies fighting for the throne? Who do you have as the three heads of the dragon? Good post!

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

First off, it's my first thread, so be kind! This is just something I was thinking over at work today, and I'm still not entirely certain about it, but it seems to fit-- at least thematically. I'd like to hear what you guys think.

I believe Aegon is genuinely Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar and blood heir to the Targaryen line. I also believe that ultimately, this won't matter in the game of thrones (though it will be of some importance for Dany's personal arc).

What originally had me thinking about this was one of the visions Dany encountered in the House of the Undying; she sees Rhaegar holding the newly-born Aegon and saying,

This is, IIRC, the only use of the series' name itself, and you would expect it to be in a context of some significance. It never seemed to fit that the "song of ice and fire" belonged to a child who died before he could walk. I remember thinking this long before I knew that Aegon had supposedly secretly survived.

It also doesn't really gel with me that individuals such as Varys and JonCon would be mistaken about the child's identity. JonCon loved the father, and surely would recognise some of him in the son. Varys seems to know bloody everything, and it strikes me that for him to commit himself to Aegon so dangerously-- killing Pycelle and Kevan, ending his long charade-- he must be damn sure that the kid is of great skill, blood or importance. Cerainly, Varys mentions the rigorous training Young Griff has been put through, but I still don't believe he would throw himself behind some petty conspiracy, unless the child was one of a kind.

Now, here's the important bit; I also believe Aegon is indeed the "Mummer's Dragon", and that his bloodline will, in the end, avail him nothing. We learned from Viserys that simply being a Targaryen doesn't make you a dragon; we all know he was "less than the shadow of a snake". What's more, we really haven't seen anything to suggest great skill or leadership from Aegon; in fact, in "The Griffon Reborn" chapter, he comes across as headstrong, arrogant, and entitled.

Varys is still the "mummer", and it takes more than a Targaryen to make a dragon. This is the real crux of why I believe this: Aegon's purpose in the story is to convince Daenerys that her greatness and her legitimacy do not come from her bloodline. Her greatness comes from the horrors she has seen and experienced, the empathy she has developed. One of her remaining hangups is that the idea of inheritance and birthright still cling to her, and she still entertains notions of "right by birth".

As Jorah tried to tell her, that is never truly how she will come to power. I believe Aegon is genuinely the legal Targaryen heir, but that he will serve to show Daenerys just how meaningless birthright is, and that her own legitimacy comes from her experiences and skill. Perhaps this will even help her come to terms with the Mad King's crimes? Whatever happens, it seems to me that Daenerys defeating the legal blood heir of the Targaryens would be a far more meaningful chapter in her story arc than simply defeating a liar's conspiracy.

What do you ladies and gents think? :leaving: (I'd also like to add that while I've talked a lot about Dany's fitness and legitimacy, that doesn't necessarily mean I think she'd be the best for job, or that I think she'll get it. I'm talking purely about her personal story arc here).

I love this, and completely agree, except that I am not sure about Dany defeating him. They could be aligned. Either is possible....just saying :)

[SolFreer]

I don't necessarily agree with this, but I think it's quite fitting with GRRM's style that the second Dance of Dragons should not be so black & white (or black & red, rather) as the true heir (Dany) fighting the pretender (Aegon), but rather that our heroine isn't actually fully in the right, forbidding us from justifying everything by the classic fantasy good/evil dichotomy.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I still think he's a fake, but it could work :)

[Drexyon7]

good catch on the House of the Undying quote OP, I believe Aegon is the real deal too.

[Neilos]

Thanks guys! :smug: I'm still not certain on it myself-- perhaps 30% of me thinks Aegon is fAegon after all.

I like the theory but what is the payoff? He dies fighting for the throne? Who do you have as the three heads of the dragon? Good post!

I can see it being quite a tragic story (and a tragic ending) for JonCon, which would be a bit of a payoff in itself-- it'd be a brilliant storyline. As for Aegon himself, I'm not sure at all. I'm not sure how much of our sympathy he'll gather, or how much promise he'll show.

As for the three heads of the dragon... I am very much against Victarion being one such (He is there to use her; he'll play his part, but his aims and motives are irreconcilable with hers, and he won't come out of it victorious), so I'd tend to think Tyrion and Marwyn.

(Jorah and Barristan may be her most stalwart defenders, but the three "heads" seems to suggest to most people here that the ones to fill that role will be having a kind of guiding influence-- very intelligent people. Tyrion & Marwyn would make incredibly valuable advisors. Tyrion knows the ins-and-outs of Westeros, and King's Landing and Casterly Rock in particular (maybe his knowledge of the CR sewer system will even come in useful again!). As for Marwyn... Maesters do live to serve, supposedly!)

[Dr. Pepper]

What originally had me thinking about this was one of the visions Dany encountered in the House of the Undying; she sees Rhaegar holding the newly-born Aegon and saying,

This is, IIRC, the only use of the series' name itself, and you would expect it to be in a context of some significance. It never seemed to fit that the "song of ice and fire" belonged to a child who died before he could walk. I remember thinking this long before I knew that Aegon had supposedly secretly survived.

We know that Rhaegar had already interpreted the prophecy wrong. He thought he was the prince that was promised, but he died on the Trident and his body was burned as per Targ funerary practice. In that same vision you quoted above, Rhaegar also said there must be one more, suggesting he thought this prophecy included Aegon and two siblings. Aegon's eldest sibling, Rhaenys, is dead, so that's another way that Rhaegar got it wrong. It doesn't really make much sense to think that Rhaegar got his interpretation correct when it's already known how many times he already got it wrong.

It also doesn't really gel with me that individuals such as Varys and JonCon would be mistaken about the child's identity. JonCon loved the father, and surely would recognise some of him in the son. Varys seems to know bloody everything, and it strikes me that for him to commit himself to Aegon so dangerously-- killing Pycelle and Kevan, ending his long charade-- he must be damn sure that the kid is of great skill, blood or importance. Cerainly, Varys mentions the rigorous training Young Griff has been put through, but I still don't believe he would throw himself behind some petty conspiracy, unless the child was one of a kind.

This assumes that Varys believes that Aegon is son of Rhaegar and also assumes that Varys has the same goals as Illyrio. It doesn't seem likely given Varys' pattern of doublespeak throughout the series. Varys doesn't directly lie, but he speaks in a way that purposely leads listeners to a different conclusion and doesn't bother to correct them. For example, in AGOT, Varys told Ned that Jon Arryn was killed by someone who owed everything to the old man as Arryn had brought him to KL. Ned assumes it means Hugh of the Vale, but we readers know that Varys really meant Littlefinger. Varys didn't lie and he didn't correct Ned's false assumption. It would be strange if Varys broke this pattern in the epilogue of ADWD after the author spent so much time showing us this doublespeak thing. Plus, Varys is speaking in front of people (the 'little birds') that are supplied by Illyrio. I can't see any way that Illyrio wouldn't ensure that his business partner in KL was true to their goals by installing his own loyal little tongueless spy.

Jon Con's love for Rhaegar and feelings of failure are what made him uniquely suited for the job of raising a kid Varys told him was Rhaegar's son. It helps that Jon Con wasn't there when the babe's body was presented to Robert so what he knows about baby Aegon's death is via the equivalent of the Planetos news media. Jon Con is one person who would want to believe that he still had a chance to redeem himself by playing an active role in Rhaegar's legacy and because of this, he's unlikely to question things too carefully. He will see what he wants to see in Young Griff. It's no wonder why his chapter are titled "The Lost Lord" and "The Griffon Reborn" rather than "The Lost Prince" or "Rhaegar's Legacy Reborn". Devoting all those years to Young Griff was about Jon Connington.

Aegon need not be the son of Rhaegar for Dany to come to realize that greatness and legitimacy do not come from being born from the loins of the right people. It would actually make more sense for Dany to come to this realization if Aegon proved to be a good administrator without being the 'right blood'.

[Pikachu101]

How boring and cliche would it be if Aegon is the real deal?

Personally I prefer the idea that:

A) he's a fake but no one finds out

B ) he's the mummer's dragon but Dany mistakes it for Jon

C) fans will have a fit and George would be like "I ain't even mad"

[King Tam Stark]

I like this part. I think a large part of what I didn't like about Dany at first was her entitlement attitue. When she starts freeing slaves and conquoring the cities in Slavor's bay, she has no birthright there, just the right of conquest, so it makes sense that her attitue will change over time. She certainly has a soft heart for the peasents, and her cupbarers who were supposed to be her hostages. "Save the kingdom to win the throne," although said by Stannis, I think will ultimitly apply to Dany as well if/when she even gets around to returning to Westeros. (Which she might not-I could see her staying in Essos to rule there)

she can relate to them because of the life she has had and having been sold herself

[Blackfyre demon]

There was always one thing that bothered me about the 'death' of Aegon during the sack of KL.

His face was smashed in by the Mountain, doesn't that seem a bit over the top to kill a baby?

And it's been a while since i last read ASOS but doesn't the Red Viper mention that the Mountain was ordered to do so by Tywin?

(I could be wrong here correct me if I am)

We all know most Targ babies had distinctive features (purple eyes) making it easy to recognise one.

So why did Tywin order little Aegon's face smashed in?

Maybe to hide the fact that it wasn't a Targ baby?

Also three dragons mean three riders, and since maester Aemon is dead, BR is too busy hugging a weirwood.

That means Danny, Jon (maybe, I hope), ... Aegon perhaps.

Also it would be kinda ironic if Aegon gets eaten by Rhaegal.

[Lady Valicious]

I'm unsure about Aegon. I do think that the real one was smuggled out of KL and that probably no baby was found with Elia, explaining her rape and brutal death (complete rage not to find what they were looking for) and the need to smash a baby's head (to make sure no one could recognize it wasn't the real Aegon). That said nothing points out that the person pretending to be Aegon is the real deal. A young child could have easily died on his trip to safety (maybe sent to Dorne, I'm sure they would have paid nicely to get him)... Another plan was set once the opportunity was given. That child was used to replace him explaining why that Aegon looks younger than his normal age... and then once old enough JonCon would have been given the little boy to raise...

I'll just sit back and see what the books will bring about that.

[King Tam Stark]

There was always one thing that bothered me about the 'death' of Aegon during the sack of KL.

His face was smashed in by the Mountain, doesn't that seem a bit over the top to kill a baby?

And it's been a while since i last read ASOS but doesn't the Red Viper mention that the Mountain was ordered to do so by Tywin?

(I could be wrong here correct me if I am)

We all know most Targ babies had distinctive features (purple eyes) making it easy to recognise one.

So why did Tywin order little Aegon's face smashed in?

Maybe to hide the fact that it wasn't a Targ baby?

Also three dragons mean three riders, and since maester Aemon is dead, BR is too busy hugging a weirwood.

That means Danny, Jon (maybe, I hope), ... Aegon perhaps.

Also it would be kinda ironic if Aegon gets eaten by Rhaegal.

so while getting the targs off the throne hes plotting to get the targ heir back on the throne? what would tywins motivation be?